13 replies to this topic

[Karnal Soul]

If anyone has ever put only 100 rounds through an MG. They KNOW they create heat. PGI talks balance but when it comes to MGs, its broken. Stealth + MG ghost heat would be balance. Bottom line , the MGs need fixed, they are broken. I know im beating a dead horse, almost every mech/vehicle game is very pro light vehicle/mech. Guess its why i wont put a dime into them. Im all in favor of having rounds cook off in the chamber if they are fired too long, which is a REAL possibility if you cant maintain fire discipline. ok now lets get the response from the trolls

Edited by Karnal Soul, 22 June 2018 - 10:49 AM.

[Agent of Change]

Agreed! YES!

100% it wouldn't take much.

And if you don't want heat or ghost heat? (which there should be) then there should AT least be a Jam chance. Again there has never been an MG made than can fire cyclic rate and NOT Jam or overheat it's barrel in relatively short order.


Alternatively! And this is less based on IRL MG's and more on BT lore but why not have MG's just have a 0 DPS to any armored component. They'd still have their crazy Dps against open components due to high crit chance but should reasonably do nothing to armor meant to ablate damage from the heaviest weapons in the lore.

Edited by Agent of Change, 22 June 2018 - 10:53 AM.

[Karnal Soul]

Agent of Change, on 22 June 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

Agreed! YES!

100% it wouldn't take much.

And if you don't want heat or ghost heat? (which there should be) then there should AT least be a Jam chance. Again there has never been an MG made than can fire cyclic rate and NOT Jam or overheat it's barrel in relatively short order.

Even the Maxum with a water cooled barrel would jam. Former 60 Gunner, lost a bit of skin on hot barrels. Im in favor of atleast having rounds cook off inthe chamber, destroying the weapon if you exceed the limit like the bar in RACs.

Edited by Karnal Soul, 22 June 2018 - 10:55 AM.

[Karnal Soul]

Just FYI i use MGs too, but not often. If i cant use fire discipline i pay the price and will gladly do it.

[Agent of Change]

Karnal Soul, on 22 June 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

Even the Maxum with a water cooled barrel would jam. Former 60 Gunner, lost a bit of skin on hot barrels. Im in favor of atleast having rounds cook off in the chamber, destroying the weapon if you exceed the limit like the bar in RACs.

No lie, I speak from personal experience as well and it is silly to expect to fire hundreds of rounds through a MG and not have it just warp from heat or jam if you never stop to cool down.

[Karnal Soul]

Agent of Change, on 22 June 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

No lie, I speak from personal experience as well and it is silly to expect to fire hundreds of rounds through a MG and not have it just warp from heat or jam if you never stop to cool down.

Problem is, in a country thats anti gun, they have no real concept of GUNs especially semi and fully auto matic, as with most civilians having no concept of fully auto. ROUNDS COOK OFF destroying the weapon and injuring if not killing the gunner in real life, yes its a game, but i keep hearing the nasty word called BALANCE which seems to be lacking when it comes to light/medium mechs.

[MechanicalWraith]

Ghost heat is an ugly band-aid for any balancing problem, I'm actually fine with where MGs are at power-wise too, trouble is many light mechs are rather OP, hitreg is bad and most importantly there's no melee to deal with hugging lights...
Machine guns just compound those issues by frustrating the target with constant bombardment.

Melee proposal to fix some of the problem here:
https://mwomercs.com...ble-easy-melee/

At the end of the day, I strongly oppose adding more ghost-heat to MWO, if anything, better to simply give MGs a jam-bar like RACs, as the heat generated by tiny 600RPM rifles could far more easily be shared between a few additional lightweight and air-cooled barrels rather than hooked up to your mech's enormous coolant grid.

If you're still after realism, let's make ballistic weapons more lethal, longer-ranged, using actual IRL Ballistic Physics.
Like MGs effective to 1km+ ranges, mid-sized ACs that can reach 10km, and finally gauss rifles that can skewer a whole lance of assault mechs through the chest. (50kg+ slug traveling at 2,000m/s = good luck armor)

Edited by MechanicalWraith, 23 June 2018 - 05:43 AM.

[Karnal Soul]

MechanicalWraith, on 22 June 2018 - 11:58 PM, said:

Ghost heat is an ugly band-aid for any balancing problem, I'm actually fine with where MGs are at power-wise too, trouble is many light mechs are rather OP, hitreg is bad and most importantly there's no melee to deal with hugging lights...
Machine guns just compound those issues by frustrating the target with constant bombardment.

Melee proposal to fix some of the problem here:
https://mwomercs.com...ble-easy-melee/

At the end of the day, I strongly oppose adding more ghost-heat to MWO, if anything, better to simply give MGs a jam-bar like RACs, as the heat generated by tiny 600RPM rifles could far more easily be shared between a few additional lightweight and air-cooled barrels rather than hooked up to your mech's enormous coolant grid.

If you're still after realism, let's make ballistic weapons more lethal, longer-ranged, using actual IRL Ballistic Physics.
Like MGs effective to 1km+ ranges, mid-sized ACs that can reach 10km, and finally gauss rifles that can skewer a whole lance of assault mechs through the chest. (50kg+ slug traveling at 2,000m/s = good luck armor)

Yeah ghost is the suggestion start but i agree with ALOT of that with light mechs, need knock down. 12 50 cal class MG will gen quite a bit of heat actually, but im more in favor of the RAC bar style but instead of a jam, have rounds cook off if they keep exceedig it, destroying the MG it cooks off in. If they cant maintain fire discipline, thats not my problem.

[Tesunie]

Karnal Soul, on 22 June 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

If anyone has ever put only 100 rounds through an MG. They KNOW they create heat. PGI talks balance but when it comes to MGs, its broken. Stealth + MG ghost heat would be balance. Bottom line , the MGs need fixed, they are broken. I know im beating a dead horse, almost every mech/vehicle game is very pro light vehicle/mech. Guess its why i wont put a dime into them. Im all in favor of having rounds cook off in the chamber if they are fired too long, which is a REAL possibility if you cant maintain fire discipline. ok now lets get the response from the trolls

I will make mention, BT is placed in a scifi setting placed over 1000+ years into our future. In this future, we have fusion powered Battlmechs that run on light hydrogen with a reaction similar to the Sun. We also have armor that is infused with a diamond infused armor. Armor, for the record, so thick that modern day weapons can't even scratch it (short of a nuclear weapon). A future that, at it's height, also had miniaturized nuclear reactors into hand grenades (I am not making this up).

The Mackie when first tested on a proving ground took a live fired modern day weapon shot to the hip, and it dealt no damage at all. That weapon was described as being capable of cutting through 3m (about 9 feet) of solid reinforced armor grade steel (modern era armor). Did nothing to Battlemech "primitive" armor, which is worse than current armor of the more recent era of Battletech (standard armor).

So, with that consideration, where weapons produce staggering amounts of heat that a Battlemech's cooling systems can handle... a MGs heat is so negligible that it's basically non-existent. The cooling systems of the mech is so advanced that it can handle it without problems.


As a side note, in TT and BT lore, MGs where powerful enough to be able to damage armor (2 points to be exact). It was best at handling infantry though. And part of it's short range is because it needs enough power to damage said diamond infused armor of standard era technology (for Battletech).

As a balance mechanic in this game... I don't think it would work. MGs have short range and need ammo, unlike SLs (which don't need ammo). If anything, maybe have diminishing returns on it's increased crit chances with the more MGs you fire/equip (similar to GH). It would reduce it's damage a smidge as you take more of them (due to less damage dealt from crits). Maybe...

Karnal Soul, on 26 June 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

Yeah ghost is the suggestion start but i agree with ALOT of that with light mechs, need knock down. 12 50 cal class MG will gen quite a bit of heat actually, but im more in favor of the RAC bar style but instead of a jam, have rounds cook off if they keep exceedig it, destroying the MG it cooks off in. If they cant maintain fire discipline, thats not my problem.

Too punishing of a "drawback".

[Karnal Soul]

Tesunie, on 26 June 2018 - 07:22 PM, said:

I will make mention, BT is placed in a scifi setting placed over 1000+ years into our future. In this future, we have fusion powered Battlmechs that run on light hydrogen with a reaction similar to the Sun. We also have armor that is infused with a diamond infused armor. Armor, for the record, so thick that modern day weapons can't even scratch it (short of a nuclear weapon). A future that, at it's height, also had miniaturized nuclear reactors into hand grenades (I am not making this up).

The Mackie when first tested on a proving ground took a live fired modern day weapon shot to the hip, and it dealt no damage at all. That weapon was described as being capable of cutting through 3m (about 9 feet) of solid reinforced armor grade steel (modern era armor). Did nothing to Battlemech "primitive" armor, which is worse than current armor of the more recent era of Battletech (standard armor).

So, with that consideration, where weapons produce staggering amounts of heat that a Battlemech's cooling systems can handle... a MGs heat is so negligible that it's basically non-existent. The cooling systems of the mech is so advanced that it can handle it without problems.


As a side note, in TT and BT lore, MGs where powerful enough to be able to damage armor (2 points to be exact). It was best at handling infantry though. And part of it's short range is because it needs enough power to damage said diamond infused armor of standard era technology (for Battletech).

As a balance mechanic in this game... I don't think it would work. MGs have short range and need ammo, unlike SLs (which don't need ammo). If anything, maybe have diminishing returns on it's increased crit chances with the more MGs you fire/equip (similar to GH). It would reduce it's damage a smidge as you take more of them (due to less damage dealt from crits). Maybe...



Too punishing of a "drawback".

For one this game uses nearly no true BT rules unless convenient to the Dev for IS buffing. That said, MGs are MGs they dont say rail guns, or hyper velocity guns, But the ghost heat title i think is to catch attention more than practical application, yeah folks cant conceive of 12 50 cals making any heat, but thats civilians in a bastardized version of battle tech. Also, we arent talking steel, or even hardened steel on our modern armour, its a whole diff make up so im sure MW era armour can stand up to 50 call if an abrams can. Im more leaning toward the cooking off of rounds in the MGs Chambers, if you exceed a RAC style bar for more than say 1.5-2 seconds. This would only destroy one weapon per second after exceeding this. those who cant show fire discipline either learn it or blow their MGs up Instead of 12 MGs whos barrels never warp (they can) or get so hot as they warp they cook off ammunition. since MGs arent gauss type weapons they are excelerant based, thus if getting too hot the excelerant ignites prematurely in the case. i make my own ammo and have seen cook offs in MGs so im very familiar with the make up and results of ammunition. But on the concept of warping, maybe have them permenantly so inaccurate after that that even when a light mech shoves his nose up your sphincter, only a very small percent hit the target since they will be firing wildly in every direction. Bottom line, it needs fixed. its broken.

Edited by Karnal Soul, 26 June 2018 - 11:36 PM.

[Tesunie]

Karnal Soul, on 26 June 2018 - 11:22 PM, said:

For one this game uses nearly no true BT rules unless convenient to the Dev for IS buffing. That said, MGs are MGs they dont say rail guns, or hyper velocity guns, But the ghost heat title i think is to catch attention more than practical application, yeah folks cant conceive of 12 50 cals making any heat, but thats civilians in a bastardized version of battle tech. Also, we arent talking steel, or even hardened steel on our modern armour, its a whole diff make up so im sure MW era armour can stand up to 50 call if an abrams can. Im more leaning toward the cooking off of rounds in the MGs Chambers, if you exceed a RAC style bar for more than say 1.5-2 seconds. This would only destroy one weapon per second after exceeding this. those who cant show fire discipline either learn it or blow their MGs up Instead of 12 MGs whos barrels never warp (they can) or get so hot as they warp they cook off ammunition. since MGs arent gauss type weapons they are excelerant based, thus if getting too hot the excelerant ignites prematurely in the case. i make my own ammo and have seen cook offs in MGs so im very familiar with the make up and results of ammunition. But on the concept of warping, maybe have them permenantly so inaccurate after that that even when a light mech shoves his nose up your sphincter, only a very small percent hit the target since they will be firing wildly in every direction. Bottom line, it needs fixed. its broken.

Ever heard of paragraphs? That is one GIANT wall of text to go through...


Sci-fi world that operates on it's own rules. If they said that anti-gravity was possible by the use of anti-gravitons or by white matter... who are we to argue? The universe operates on it's own rules. In this case, MGs don't produce significant enough heat to damage the weapon (which I imagine is made from the same diamond infused metals as armor plating is). Suspend all real life comparisons, such as current day "primitive" or "historic" MGs (in relation to BT and it's 1,000+ years in the future, where faster than light travel is done via punching literal holes in reality and "jumping" to another location). Our weapons of today... just don't even compete.


This game actually is based far more on TT BT rules than you seem to believe. Sure, it's not a perfect 1:1 transfer, but most of what this game is based on is from TT. Mechlab is mostly from TT (minus the hard point restrictions, used to create stability, restrictions, and preserve chassis/variant flavor). The bulk of our weapon stats are from TT. How damage applies, transfers (with exception to reduced damage when it transfers, but that's for a point of balance) and how crits are dealt (with exception to some components (such as engines and gyros) being unable to be crit, and some weapons having increased crit chances for weapon balance) are all TT. Want to run it by me again how TT doesn't have any influence on this game?


Your concept of "self destruction" has been suggested so many times, and I'll tell you the same thing told to them... NO. It's dumb. New players would find themselves weaponless or dead from shooting their weapons themselves... it wouldn't be funny. GH is already fairly punishing, especially to new players. Override can already cause death to a player if not used well. We don't need another "If you shoot X weapon too much/with these weapons/with X of them, you die/lose the weapons" suggestion.

Seriously, think about what you are saying. You are basically saying "if you don't play my way, you should be punished". In your case, you want the weapons to self destruct if they are used as they are intended to be.
Why not change Gauss to explode if you charge it up for too long? Better learn better firing control and only charge it if you intend to shoot it.
How about having PPCs melt if you shoot them at a target within their minimum range (which is somewhat a risk in lore)? Wasn't added into this game for balance, and it isn't in the TT game either (at least not that I know of). Not to mention, with this game, your 90m minimum "explode your weapon" range can sometimes be longer. I know I've had LRMs sometimes bounce harmlessly on targets at 200m... where their minimum range is 180m...


MG boating may be a mild issue right now, but having the weapons "self destruct" is never the way to deal with it. I'd prefer to, similar to GH, have MGs get some kind of diminishing return somehow (if anything). Maybe reducing their increase to crit chances/crit damage the more you take? Linking them to have GH with SLs as another possibility (but that doesn't make much sense to me, nor do I think it would work).

Right now though, it feels like all weapons have too high of a crit chance. At least it does to me. Not just restricted to MGs. how to address this, I'm not sure. Having MGs specifically degrade or explode I highly don't believe to be any solution to the overall issue.

[Karnal Soul]

Tesunie, on 27 June 2018 - 07:04 AM, said:

Ever heard of paragraphs? That is one GIANT wall of text to go through...


Sci-fi world that operates on it's own rules. If they said that anti-gravity was possible by the use of anti-gravitons or by white matter... who are we to argue? The universe operates on it's own rules. In this case, MGs don't produce significant enough heat to damage the weapon (which I imagine is made from the same diamond infused metals as armor plating is). Suspend all real life comparisons, such as current day "primitive" or "historic" MGs (in relation to BT and it's 1,000+ years in the future, where faster than light travel is done via punching literal holes in reality and "jumping" to another location). Our weapons of today... just don't even compete.


This game actually is based far more on TT BT rules than you seem to believe. Sure, it's not a perfect 1:1 transfer, but most of what this game is based on is from TT. Mechlab is mostly from TT (minus the hard point restrictions, used to create stability, restrictions, and preserve chassis/variant flavor). The bulk of our weapon stats are from TT. How damage applies, transfers (with exception to reduced damage when it transfers, but that's for a point of balance) and how crits are dealt (with exception to some components (such as engines and gyros) being unable to be crit, and some weapons having increased crit chances for weapon balance) are all TT. Want to run it by me again how TT doesn't have any influence on this game?


Your concept of "self destruction" has been suggested so many times, and I'll tell you the same thing told to them... NO. It's dumb. New players would find themselves weaponless or dead from shooting their weapons themselves... it wouldn't be funny. GH is already fairly punishing, especially to new players. Override can already cause death to a player if not used well. We don't need another "If you shoot X weapon too much/with these weapons/with X of them, you die/lose the weapons" suggestion.

Seriously, think about what you are saying. You are basically saying "if you don't play my way, you should be punished". In your case, you want the weapons to self destruct if they are used as they are intended to be.
Why not change Gauss to explode if you charge it up for too long? Better learn better firing control and only charge it if you intend to shoot it.
How about having PPCs melt if you shoot them at a target within their minimum range (which is somewhat a risk in lore)? Wasn't added into this game for balance, and it isn't in the TT game either (at least not that I know of). Not to mention, with this game, your 90m minimum "explode your weapon" range can sometimes be longer. I know I've had LRMs sometimes bounce harmlessly on targets at 200m... where their minimum range is 180m...


MG boating may be a mild issue right now, but having the weapons "self destruct" is never the way to deal with it. I'd prefer to, similar to GH, have MGs get some kind of diminishing return somehow (if anything). Maybe reducing their increase to crit chances/crit damage the more you take? Linking them to have GH with SLs as another possibility (but that doesn't make much sense to me, nor do I think it would work).

Right now though, it feels like all weapons have too high of a crit chance. At least it does to me. Not just restricted to MGs. how to address this, I'm not sure. Having MGs specifically degrade or explode I highly don't believe to be any solution to the overall issue.

Ill apply to GrammarNazi school immediately. yeah i get it those who support OP crap will argue till blue in the face and a diamond infused barrel would have toomuch frictionad they are more on the brittle side. But yeah as long as folks abuse exploits and it makes mediocre baddass it will continue. id like to see any chamber in ANY MG withstand a 50 cal class round cook off in a softened barrel. but hey screw it right, folks who cant get it done other wise need something OP so they can perform. Like the rumor of nerfing ATMs, which hardly anyone seems to use, but im guessing some one who pays $1000/mth n this game got killed by one. i mean the ATM 3 takes jsut as long to reload as an ATM 12, even tho ALL other missiles inthe game, the lower the count the faster the cooldown, but not ATMs lol. dont care what any troll may say, PGI is anti clan Bias, i dont see the balance in nerfing the VERY FEW techs the clan have (cant go on BT rules since they only apply to buff the IS), while the IS constantly gets buffs and new tech (shouldnt be ablt to shoot when stealthed i think). but hey only been gaming since 1982 or so. is that a better run on paragraph? shouldnt grammarnazi me, it just makes me smile and tempts me to misspell more words lol (i havent done much spelll checking this time, yeah im a bit twisted, i like it that way). I get your points on future techs, but that dont change the bias factor i see it here, seen in it armoured warfare and warthunder, i wont touch WOT for noone. Stopped doing WT and AW due to russian bias. i do love MW stuff, more BT really but his is best i can see since i dont have the cash to go get BT rght now. Def wont get MW 5. So i make do with this, all and all its entertaining, i jsut get VERY annoyed at exploits and civilian crap that makes no military sense what so ever and of course bias is a huge MMO pet peave.

[Tesunie]

Karnal Soul, on 29 June 2018 - 05:43 PM, said:

Ill apply to GrammarNazi school immediately.

yeah i get it those who support OP crap will argue till blue in the face

and a diamond infused barrel would have toomuch frictionad they are more on the brittle side. But yeah as long as folks abuse exploits and it makes mediocre baddass it will continue. id like to see any chamber in ANY MG withstand a 50 cal class round cook off in a softened barrel. but hey screw it right, folks who cant get it done other wise need something OP so they can perform.

Like the rumor of nerfing ATMs, which hardly anyone seems to use, but im guessing some one who pays $1000/mth n this game got killed by one. i mean the ATM 3 takes jsut as long to reload as an ATM 12, even tho ALL other missiles inthe game, the lower the count the faster the cooldown, but not ATMs lol. dont care what any troll may say, PGI is anti clan Bias,

i dont see the balance in nerfing the VERY FEW techs the clan have (cant go on BT rules since they only apply to buff the IS), while the IS constantly gets buffs and new tech (shouldnt be ablt to shoot when stealthed i think). but hey only been gaming since 1982 or so. is that a better run on paragraph?

shouldnt grammarnazi me, it just makes me smile and tempts me to misspell more words lol (i havent done much spelll checking this time, yeah im a bit twisted, i like it that way). I get your points on future techs, but that dont change the bias factor i see it here, seen in it armoured warfare and warthunder, i wont touch WOT for noone. Stopped doing WT and AW due to russian bias. i do love MW stuff, more BT really but his is best i can see since i dont have the cash to go get BT rght now. Def wont get MW 5. So i make do with this, all and all its entertaining, i jsut get VERY annoyed at exploits and civilian crap that makes no military sense what so ever and of course bias is a huge MMO pet peave.

It's not being a Gramarnazi when talking about paragraph and writing format. I'm not going to give you any problems for using their instead of there or they're. I don't care about typos. I just don't want to read brain melting, mind numbing wall of text. Give your thoughts some space. It makes what you are saying so much easier to grasp.

My only complaint with MGs is that, when boated, they seem to be dealing far too much damage to the internals of a mech. This is of particular note on Clan MGs, especially when they can have 12 boated at the same time... (and they are lighter.)

I'm just saying, 1000+ years into our future. The very armor there can take modern day weapon hits and not even be scratched. What do you think weapons made out of that material might be able to endure? Not to mention, heat sinks. The barrel is probably also cooled on top of that, but the heat pulled away from MGs is negligible compared to other components of this universe.

Last change to ATMs was a buff... I highly see it unlikely that they would nerf them.

Nerfing is a part of balancing. Just like buffing is. Every game that attempts to balance does buffs and nerfs. It's part of online gaming.


So, the premise of your entire argument is based on current day technology and how BT tech is better? Are you telling me that we humans never advance our technology? We never upgraded the stone spear to a brass spear? Then to a steel spear? In Battletech, MGs have been upgraded to the point where they don't suffer from the same ill effects that current ones do from today. They also hit harder, but have shorter ranges. That's just how it is in the universe envisioned in BT, where we are 1000+ years into our future.

PS: Why would you intentionally write poorly? It doesn't help your case, besides to make you look dumb... Which I don't believe you are.

[The6thMessenger]

Lol, i'd like to see the MG having ghost heat when firing 5+. It would be hilarious seeing 0 heat + 0 heat penalty.