20 replies to this topic

[MechanicalWraith]

It's that time again, Melee in MWO!

Why we don't have melee anymore.
Once upon a long time ago, MWO was being developed to have melee (of sorts).
It was at this time in our story that along came a dragon! The Dragon had a big nose, that big nose breathed PGI physics and oppressively pinned other mechs to the ground, players were irked... The end.

What we can't have and why.
We can't expect (unless PGI has secretly been working hard to make melee a thing again) to see any form of melee weapons (axes, swords, large spoons) actually swinging around - there are just too many mechs in play without any animations like that, the work involved to animate them all would be immense. Also not on the cards is knockdown, rag-doll physics are already implemented but getting-back-up animations are not...

What I propose.
Some pretext first of all: we have had for some time functionality like ECM cover bubbles - behaviours that deal with proximity and discriminating effects (ECM shields allies, jams foes).

It is by observing these existing functions that I've concluded the best way to implement melee in MWO is to create a small-radius universal DoT aura for each mech that damages only enemies - representing a plethora of subtle maneuvers that mechs would believably undertake when pressed up against a hostile counterpart.

Such an aura would eliminate the performance and fidelity constraints of using each mech's unique 'hit-boxes' for collision detection whilst satisfyingly punishing light mechs that attempt to use exploitative tactics like hugging your knees or glitching between you and a wall.

Damage dealt by this aura can be calculated in any number of ways, larger mechs would have higher base damage but factors like quirks or possibly velocity could affect the outcome.

Mechs that are known in canon for their tendency to whack others in the face could very easily be given quirks to improve their melee damage, and some classics like the Hatchetman can also be introduced without absent or impotent geometry destroying their legacy.

Special effects while within melee range of an enemy could include camera shake (pulsed and impactful rather than rumbling), epic sound effects, perhaps even reticule shake.

FAQ Section.

Q. Won't this be a little abstract? I'd like to see my mech punch the other guy rather than grind him down with magic.

A. Yes, this proposal is a little bit abstract and you'll have to imagine the mechanized kung-fu because there's just no way to actually see those animations implemented at this point. On the other hand, would you really want to have your ranged weapons locked and unusable during a lengthy choreographed maneuver?

Q. Do we really need melee this badly in MWO? why should we settle for this instead of keeping up with petitions for 'proper' mech-punching melee?

A. Yes, we do need melee in some form because light mechs are running rampant, something has to be done about tiny mechs that can trip up assaults or hug ankles without repercussions - this feature, even if a placeholder for more advanced melee, is necessary.

Edited by MechanicalWraith, 22 June 2018 - 02:31 PM.

[HammerMaster]

I like that you're thinking outside the box and it's plausibly viable...it would be EXTREMELY unsatisfying.
So no.
Do it right or not at all.
And BOO! To them for no follow up on any inkling of something of melee in the works.

[Mister Bob Dobalina]

Although I also like this, to quote Hammermaster, outside-the-box (quite litterally in fact as you are propsing a sphere of sorts) thinking, I am also very confident that it could be probably way to much to implement. Not only how much work it would be as also if it were possible on the basis of the already streched possibilities of the 3.5 Cryengine benath of it all.

The idea of having sort of a "personal space around a Mech is intriguing though, but I would go all the way and not distinguish friend and foe. If we have friendly fire, we have to have "ups, I stomped some unlucky Locust with my Atlas".

My counterproposal to that has always been kind of a Melee Light, where we would sacrifice dropping and fistacuffs and focus on Melee weapons with a very specific mix of damage, range etc. I have laid it out with the example of my request to consider the Hatchetman, THE postermech for melee, for a place within MWO (and MW5 of course).

Hurbie, on 18 March 2017 - 03:31 AM, said:

Esteemed Ladies and Gentlemen.

I am here before you to make the case for the HCT-3F Hatchetman to be introduced into the MWO Universe.

The Hatchetman was, at its roll out in 3023, the first new Inner Sphere Mech design in a century. It featured revolutionary design choices, even after Clan standards: A melee weapon and a full cockpit ejection system. All in all, it was a very well rounded medium platform even capable engaging air units thanks to his targeting system.

During the years, the Hatchetman has seen many iterations in variants equipped with new weapon systems (e.g. Rotary ACs, MRMs etc.) or ECM versions (HTC-6D). Aside legendary engagements like the destruction of the Falcon Guard by Kai Allard Liao, the Hatchetman and his trademark iconic design had clearly left its mark.

It is clear, that the introduction of a Mech like the Hatchetman would be precedence for the addition of melee weapons in the first place. Nevertheless, it would be a significant addition to the variability of Mech choices. It would pave the way for formidable designs like the Axeman or the Hatamoto-Chi, to name a few at least.

Be aware that I do not propose this lightly as I know of the inherent problematic that has always been tied into direct kinetic engagement. Therefore, I have been thinking about how to introduce a hatchet / axe / sword into, and based on, the existing array of weaponry.


Consider this:

Let us treat the melee weapon like “just another weapon system” with a certain set of

• range (x meters)
  
• damage type (pinpoint, spread, ..)
  
• cooldown period (x seconds)
  
• charge up time (e.g. Gauss)

So here is my proposal shown after the example of the HCT-3F Hatchetman. The hatchet stands in for any other melee weapon in that case (Axe, Sword, Club, etc.)

• The hatchet takes 3 tons of weight and takes 3 slots.
  
• The hatchet forces lower arm and hand actuator and the required slot.
  
• No other weapon can be added to a weapon group as soon as the hatchet is added to it. In reverse, the hatchet cannot be added to a non-empty weapon group.
  
• The hatchet has a charge-up time and a trigger window comparable to a Gauss weapon.
  
• The hatchet has a long recharge time in the likes of a LRM20 / AC20 or even longer.
  
• The hatchet is aimed and targets with the crosshairs like any other weapon.
  
• The hatchet has a range of 30m with complete damage drop-off beyond.
  
• The hatchet creates pinpoint damage to the calculated impact point, following the same rules as for existing weaponry.
  
• The destruction of the hatchet would destroy the wielding arm as well, as its static stability would have to be deeply integrated into the arm in the first place.

An argument can be made for the amount of damage, such a weapon would inflict. Bare in mind that you carry a weapon with significant tonnage and requirement of slots (in the case of the HCT, the Hatchet weighs about 7% of the overall weight) and can only be used within a very thin margin of opportunity and only up close. So, high damage would be justifiable. Another area of argumentation regarding the damage is

• The speed of the Hatchetman at the time of the successful impact: Although it would be physically correct to include the objects own speed into the amount of kinetic energy transferred to the target (kinetic energy = mass x velocity squared), I would drop that for the sake of simplicity to make this better introducible into MWO.
  
• The weight of the Mech wielding the melee weapon. As stated before, the weight has even less influence on the kinetic energy transferred, than the speed has. On the other hand, bigger Mechs wield bigger weapons. While the Hatchetmans Hatchet weighs 3t, the Axemans Axe weighs 5t. If we assign a certain damage potential to the weight of the melee weapon, we have an indirect tie to the size of the Mech and could define 2t for Light Mechs and 7t-8t with Assault Mechs

Imagine the Hatchet being a extremely short ranged laser that weighs a lot, has a friggin charge-up and cooldown time and its use is shown by an awesome animation, beating the living crap out of an enemy Mech.

This would not create a massive change in the games basic and underlying mechanics (full kinematic engagements, kicking, punching etc.) as rather being melee light. It is clear, that such a change would require massive and probably foundation changing shifts and reprogramming, therefore I tried to create a way less invasive yet way more doable solution.

So, I close my argument for a relatively easy introduction of melee –ish weapons in general and the roll-out of the Hatchetman in particular.

Please let me know what you think about my thoughts on the matter.

I for myself can settle with melee light (as opposed to the full blown all-included version) as I consider it doable within a reasonable frame of change. In that regard, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Let's imagine Mechs were real and Mech people would really go one-to-one at it, trying to slug each other out. I am not so sure that real-life pilots would really do that too much as they must be very aware of the amount of work and money their machines represent. That's something no one just blindly exposes to possible avoidable damage in the first place. Also, and thats probably even the main point, going full fistacuffs against each other will not only damage the machine but shake the pilot way more than just getting fired at. Yes, I know, dakka and stuff. Impact shake. Melee is different. Not only for the receiving end at that. "IRL" Melee would be way more of a risk for an punching or kicking pilot. On the other side of the spectrum, us coach-potato (compared to real life Mech pilots of course) players sit comfortably in our chairs, with drinks on the table (oh? Heat-realted shutdown? Sweat much???). That's what's going to make it way easier for gamers to pilot their Mechs like the pupets they are. Probably comparable to race game players who can lap the Nurburgring in 7 min flat, but tear a neck muscle when they are cornering a 90 degree corner around their neighbourhood a little fast (G-Forces anyone?) Where I am going with this is: Full on Melee would be misused by pilots simply because they can. Clans are supposed to fight according to Zellbrigen (Focus 1 enemy only until he's dead, not shooting at teammates targets, etc.), but does anyone seriously do it? Melee light would introduce another weapon class (just think of the possibilities foer Solaris) within the rues that already exist. But who am I to have dreams and think they are reasonable ....

[MechanicalWraith]

I personally support your suggestion Hurbie, but if we could have only one melee system, I'd advocate mine on the basis that it is needed to shake up the current horrible light-mechs-n-exploits meta - aka, making an Atlas' butt into a scary looming crushing obstacle that Fleas and Piranhas would avoid rather than headbutt (pun intended) because that's the meta thing to do.

While we're considering your proposal though, it's really an easy addition, just treat the clobbering animation as a bay-door animation (which is built-in to many mechs already, most similarly the King Crab's quick pop-open claws), that way you charge up and upon release, the arm behaves exactly like a bay door - animating a quick swing and then resting after a pause.
Like most shooters that don't have dedicated IK provisions for melee scenes, this mechanism would rarely make visually correct impacts, but for mechs like the Hatchetman it could be a fun thematic element nonetheless.

The more I think about it, having both mechanisms would make a pretty solid improvement to the brawling meta in MWO, and neither one of them represents all that much coding work at all.

[P0607]

As we know ping and collisions do not like each other in this game. Such changes will lead to even more frustration (especially considering that everyone checks both EU and NA servers to get matches faster, some even check Oceania) not only for lights, but for all other mechs too. Everyone will be thrown back and forth like usual, but it's scary to think what that "aura" will do in this situation. Also, as already said, this will create situations like lrm xl atlas randomly stomping locusts. Also I don't think lights are such a huge problem. Ask your team to help you, carry uavs, stand with your back against the wall if you are alone.

[MechanicalWraith]

P0607, on 23 June 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

As we know ping and collisions do not like each other in this game. Such changes will lead to even more frustration (especially considering that everyone checks both EU and NA servers to get matches faster, some even check Oceania) not only for lights, but for all other mechs too. Everyone will be thrown back and forth like usual, but it's scary to think what that "aura" will do in this situation. Also, as already said, this will create situations like lrm xl atlas randomly stomping locusts. Also I don't think lights are such a huge problem. Ask your team to help you, carry uavs, stand with your back against the wall if you are alone.

As stated in my original post, the whole point of implementing melee as a (small) 'aura' or 'bubble' like ECM is to avoid collision detection issues, it's a non-physical object, no jittering, no physics going haywire because you bumped into someone, just an on/off effect zone exactly like ECM. As for light mechs not being a problem, you're entitled to your opinion on the subject but I disagree strongly for a couple of reasons - firstly, team support means very little when you're dead in quite literally under 10 seconds. Secondly, backing against a wall is a situational and frankly useless maneuver when the light mech in question can glitch between you and said wall with ease (those same collision issues you mention).

Melee as an aura is all about two things: making contact exploits (using glitchy physics or just plain unrealistic ankle-hugging) an untenable proposition for light mechs doing just that to farm easy-mode kills, and discouraging facehugging tactics in general brawling - ofcourse you'll get 'confident' Atlas pilots charging at lighter mechs with intent to utilize their melee superiority but that's not a problem. Smaller mechs can move fast enough to get out of the way, and few people would claim that a bit more respect for the heavier mechs is a bad thing.

[P0607]

MechanicalWraith, on 23 June 2018 - 11:53 AM, said:

As stated in my original post, the whole point of implementing melee as a (small) 'aura' or 'bubble' like ECM is to avoid collision detection issues, it's a non-physical object, no jittering, no physics going haywire because you bumped into someone, just an on/off effect zone exactly like ECM. As for light mechs not being a problem, you're entitled to your opinion on the subject but I disagree strongly for a couple of reasons - firstly, team support means very little when you're dead in quite literally under 10 seconds. Secondly, backing against a wall is a situational and frankly useless maneuver when the light mech in question can glitch between you and said wall with ease (those same collision issues you mention).

Melee as an aura is all about two things: making contact exploits (using glitchy physics or just plain unrealistic ankle-hugging) an untenable proposition for light mechs doing just that to farm easy-mode kills, and discouraging facehugging tactics in general brawling - ofcourse you'll get 'confident' Atlas pilots charging at lighter mechs with intent to utilize their melee superiority but that's not a problem. Smaller mechs can move fast enough to get out of the way, and few people would claim that a bit more respect for the heavier mechs is a bad thing.

You will not be able to avoid collision detection issues if you will not delete collision entirely or just spend a lot of time fixing it (which PGI won't). If you want to get rid of collision and increase "aura" damage to insane amount when mech models are inside of each other than it will make no sense and frustration won't go away because you may not be able to stop right near the mech cause of ping. In any other case collision glitches will still be present.

As of being dead in seconds, that's not an issue with lights, but more with weapons on some of them and poor decision from PGI. I don't imagine even 6 small pulses destroying you all that fast, only machineguns. And maybe 6 srm6, but jenner IIC is pretty huge and fragile (and javelin will be too slow with such loadout).

As of glitching between wall and the assault, I personally never do that, because it can work both ways and it's more often working in the favor of the assault because of sheer amount of hitpoints and the fact that you both can't really move.

[MechanicalWraith]

I never suggested removing collisions, they're here and they're buggy and we deal with them, but if melee was implemented then the main culprits causing collision stickies in combat (hostile lights) would be forced to use actual strategy to fight assaults and heavies without sustaining fatal getting-sat-on damage - in my book that's a win.

About the fact that some light mechs are incapable of killing you in single-digit-seconds, of course they exist, but most of them won't be affected by denying them an exploitative tactic, the really bad ones are the Piranhas, Fleas, Locusts, Commandos, Mist Lynxes and such that give lights a bad name by using exploits. Melee is about giving unsporting and unrealistic tactics the boot, if you're playing MWO like a decent BattleTech pilot then melee is at worst a slight reduction to irritating glitches caused by lights seeking easy kills, and at best a brand new way to feel like your assault mech is actually scary.

[HammerMaster]

Beta fighting (especially lights) caused all players to be more cognizant of position due to collision with mechs and walls. This really is a bummer for that dynamic being missing. Today we have all weight classes pinning throttle and colliding with anything and everything with no consequences. Period. This caused the stall in melee. So one of these days if it's EVER addressed it's more layered than just punting a deserving uppity light.
Boy do I miss curb stomping a downed enemy light hanging around a millisecond too long amongst enemy contact.
Conversely, as a light, escaping that fate through true piloting skill rather than today's inflated sense of being skilled by pinballing off everything. Man that got the heart pumping.

Edited by HammerMaster, 23 June 2018 - 12:43 PM.

[MechanicalWraith]

Agreed wholeheartedly, trouble is re-implementation is a truckload of content creation and then some coding, not to mention a heavy computational load to top it all off. If I thought we could have physics-driven melee then I'd never suggest an aura, but I don't, instead here we are with a bunch of nauseating exploits that make the meta more monotonous and toxic with every passing day.

I'm suggesting a partial fix, if I'm missing something - some reason why this feature would make matters worse, I'd love to hear it.

[PHAROSMJD]

No to the constant damage aura. Needs to be something that requires player input, a token of effort and awareness.

Example: A bindable action that sends a damage pulse on a cooldown (mech dependant damage amount) in a very short radius (no more than 30 meters) on wide arc (but not behind you) with a recoil effect similar to heavy gauss, I would consider trying that out to see what happens.

Also the damage pulse would need both sound feedback and a visible effect to other players, a puff of smoke or dirt at the very least if its a whiff and sparks if it connects.

Edited by PHAROSMJD, 23 June 2018 - 01:27 PM.

[MechanicalWraith]

I'd rather use my effort and awareness to aim my ranged weapons, this feature proposal represents crushing and shooing your foes away with subtle motions that a humanoid machine might take - imagined actions that don't leave much to be desired in the way of complex animations or kinematic accuracy.

Making it a manual action merely creates the mech equivalent to other FPS games' insta-kill knife button, and a directional ability won't be any use against arse-hugging light mechs that should rightfully be smashed to the ground and crushed underfoot with little to no effort - accidentally even - for daring to make physical contact with your reversing 100-ton backside.

Additionally, a bubble type aura won't need any special code to check if you're on the ground and able to 'super-mech-earthquake-stomp', it just signifies a generic 'melee state' that incurs a damage-over-time while sustained, so it matters not if you're at the same elevation as the other guy(s), or flying through the air on jump-jets, or a whole host of considerations that PGI won't touch.

Edited by MechanicalWraith, 23 June 2018 - 01:57 PM.

[catsonmeth]

I wish PGI would put in knockdowns again. I don't care that it's exploitable; the competitive MLG esport bull**** is why there's no playerbase anyway. Should be more sim, less CoD.

Edited by catsonmeth, 24 June 2018 - 01:18 PM.

[MechanicalWraith]

I too would love to have knockdowns in MWO, it doesn't even need to be exploitable if only heavy mechs can knock down lighter ones - but there's just too much work involved in animating all mechs to handle being sprawled in the dirt. If not for the sheer content requirements to re-implementing knockdowns, they'd work quite nicely in conjunction with another melee mechanism like the one proposed here.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

HammerMaster, on 23 June 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:

Beta fighting (especially lights) caused all players to be more cognizant of position due to collision with mechs and walls. This really is a bummer for that dynamic being missing. Today we have all weight classes pinning throttle and colliding with anything and everything with no consequences. Period. This caused the stall in melee. So one of these days if it's EVER addressed it's more layered than just punting a deserving uppity light.
Boy do I miss curb stomping a downed enemy light hanging around a millisecond too long amongst enemy contact.
Conversely, as a light, escaping that fate through true piloting skill rather than today's inflated sense of being skilled by pinballing off everything. Man that got the heart pumping.

This is true. I think extracting collision from MWO is the single largest mistake they have ever made. It helped dictate the balance and flow of combat more than any other feature. Pilots couldn't stack grids with most of their team because it was dangerous beyond measure. Lights couldn't dog fight among mechs, enemy and their own without great awareness. It WAS glitchy so I see why it was taken out, but without it the game suffers. I would even be happy with greatly increased damage when mechs of a light class rub up against larger chassis. So if light hammers up against an assault, you better believe that pieces are falling off of it. Face hugging would be reduced and the game would benefit from that. Pilots would have to use voicecomms more to communicate positioning in tight quarters.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 26 June 2018 - 07:08 AM.

[D U N E]

Melee could be cool, would make ammo-less mechs less useless. If it was done that both mechs would take equal damage from an exchange would really make it a desperate attack.

Edited by D U N E, 22 October 2018 - 01:32 PM.

[Damnedtroll]

Only way for melee for me is on a dedicated new battlemech package like an Axeman, Berserker and Hatchetman collector pack.

Locked melee weapon on the beast and 20m range, used like a gauss with a charge up time to bring the hatchet up and release it when charged. Can keep the weapon charged but cannot fire any other weapons while doing it.

Edited by Damnedtroll, 22 October 2018 - 01:14 PM.

[HammerMaster]

D U N E, on 22 October 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

Melee could be cool, would make ammo-less mechs less useless. If it was done that both mechs would take equal damage from an exchange would really make it a desperate attack.

You mean like the upcoming Charger that can't CHARGE, PUNCH or KICK?

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Im thinking thats PGI have nothing Guys with experience for programming a stable Collisionsmodel , IK or other basic Mechanics...all talented people thats not leave the Company now by MW5 (or PGI searching People new for MW5) ...and Melee in each form brings massive Problems with Hitreg was without melee is a big problem in MWO (ok now better as before 2 Years , and many Problems fixed like rubbberbanding)

and real Melee ...never ...the most Animations cruefull (ballerina Direwolf) and now Animations for Arms what only Pylons without each function? with the complicated Hitzones ...hit the Axe now the right Torso , the head or the CT from Mech 1 or the next standing mech 2...to many problems ...we now have in moment to many Facetanking and Toe to Toe fights who the team can not give support fire and Lost Member while Guys thinking thats a Great combatstyle and lost...the Light became a Problem with the stupid Resizing , who Heavys now the size of the largest Assaults

With the new Playerguild , how many use a melee function for trolling and expkloiting ? the old adult Population is not longer the Maingroup in MWO

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 23 October 2018 - 06:04 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]