63 replies to this topic

[Judah Malganis]

MGs have been nerfed enough now that in the time an MG boat strips your internals, another mech would have just blown the section off completely.

[Koniving]

Prototelis, on 25 June 2018 - 02:41 AM, said:

Just be sure you aren't close when you do leg one, it might literally eat your face.

That depends on your armor.

Until the recent discovery I was under the impression an 8 LMG mech could do up to 8.12 damage per second against structure and 5.6 damage per second against armor.

After the recent discovery, I now know its 5.6 damage against armor and UP TO a maximum of 7.364 damage per second against structure.

So... you'll outperform it with two AC/5s.
Or a pair of AC/2s..
Or almost literally anything other than a flamer or TAGs.

Well 2 of anything, really.

[BurningDesire]

you could run a 13 light tag piranha and potato's would still complain its op

[justcallme A S H]

Koniving, on 25 June 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

Spoiler

8 LMGs doing 11.2 damage in that 2 second time frame, factoring crits can range from 11.2 to 16.24 damage.
At said range with maximum range skill tree, 5.92928 to 8.597456 damage.

That's structure. Crit damage..
Unfettered by range: max 33.6. Min 0. Likely: 16.8.
IF CRITS ARE Fettered by the given range: max: 17.78784. Min: 0. Likely: 8.89392

Depending on what you had for equipment...
in terms of Clan equipment, nothing you had would survive.
In terms of IS equipment the only things that could survive are class 20 ballistics.
Even if the crits are fettered by the given range.

In other words regardless of if they are or are not in fact wittled in damage potential by the range... you were screwed to lose at least some equipment.

But hey, think about it this way: A Clan AC/20 would've outshined them at the same range and done the same.
And nobody wants to use a Clan AC/20 even though its colder.

I know that's not the same as having a reduced crit chance, but if crit damage is reduced by range, it helps quite a bit. After all every single little bullet has a 28% chance of doing 0.07 damage to your equipment. Actually wait... We've hit a snag...

Gimme a few to edit this after I figure it out.
____________________________________

And back!

Okay so this needs a little reworking, PGI did something sneaky.

If you care, check the spoiler. (Done to reduce the scroll impact of this post and the maths.)

Spoiler

Each individual "Crit" gives a crit damage of 0.49 for a Clan LMG, not a crit damage of 0.07 as would be keeping with every other weapon in the game (except LBX, LBX does double crit damage per 'hit' at 2 damage instead of 1)... That makes the MG family pretty nasty.
That's assuming this doesn't mean a crit per second, if it is a crit check per second instead of per bullet, then its a major nerf.

Either way there's a 28% chance of doing 0.49 crit damage (either per bullet or per second depending on how PGI did it).
There's a 15.5% chance of doing 0.98 crit damage.
Then there's a 3.5% chance of doing 1.47 crit damage.
And finally a 53% chance that the MG/LMG/HMG user will get a fat slab of NOTHING per crit roll.

Now in terms of easing the load of math on the server and the script hogging, a per second crit check makes a LOT more sense than a per bullet crit check (it'd be 10 checks per second, per MG for 80 checks per second in the case of the MLX, or 120 checks per second in the case of the Piranha, per mech boating MGs on a server that operates several dozen games at 100 FPS [without rendering graphics, but still]... that'd be a serious performance grinder).

So it is very likely that MGs are checking once per second similar to lasers. As I mentioned, however, that's a hell of a nerf to how any non-laser weapon works in terms of crits, and would make those "max" damage caps significantly lower.

Refactored crit damage per bullet if it works that way:

So very unlikely to be working by per bullet at the stats I pulled from smurfy. It'd be the most overpowered thing in the game.

There's no way that's the case as otherwise we'd be pumping out between 5.6 up to 40.88 ACTUAL STRUCTURE DAMAGE per second with LMGs. (Please look again at the refresher note above.)

At crit per second... Again note the refresher above.


So.. that's a lot more likely. But if that's the case, then crit damage is not fettered by range (unless your destroyed equipment was particularly weak or already damaged.)

Huh. Learn something new every day. So MGs are severely underpowered, according to smurfy's little crit note. MOAR BUFFS NEEDED!!!

(Nah, I think they're fine; just SHOOT the ******* in the leg and go back to having fun.)
(Got everything triple checked. Anyone want to tweet whomever does Thomas's old job [weapon designer] to see how the MGs are doing their crits?)

So the usual word soup aside...

You totally forget component health is what matters when critical hitting and destruction of equipment, not components. Which is the entire point of the topic.

Thus you should NEVER be giving out advice.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 25 June 2018 - 03:47 AM.

[Koniving]

justcallme A S H, on 25 June 2018 - 03:45 AM, said:

So the usual word soup aside...

You totally forget component health is what matters when critical hitting and destruction of equipment, not components. Which is the entire point of the topic.

Thus you should NEVER be giving out advice.

I can't factor in the time to kill for EVERY PIECE OF EQUIPMENT, do you seriously have that much time on your hands? Then you by all means, go ahead and use the math and factor in the time to kill for every piece of equipment, for every angle of attack, for every possible mech and defense resistance against critting...

And maybe then you COULD be entitled to give advice under YOUR OWN GUIDELINE.

Or you could be practical and not an *******.

If you hadn't noticed, the guy did NOT give WHAT equipment was crit and destroyed, therefore I'd have to factor it for Every Single Piece that Ever Existed in the Game in order to meet your guideline of being entitled to giving advice.

Or I could provide the math, and let him factor it against his equipment to figure it out like an adult. That's giving advice, information to figure something out ON YOUR OWN. Otherwise it's just telling him he's wrong or right.

I gave advice.

Or specifically advised the information of what the weapon does.

Also his actual point is that Crit CHANCES Should be REDUCED beyond the optimal range.

Which has noting to do with crit health in the first place, so even you did not actually grasp what the guy wanted.

I, however, originally gave the argument (not originally advice) that even if crit damage were reduced with range which I once believed, he'd still lose pretty much anything short of an IS class 20 cannon.
(2nd Edit and bolded for people like yourself that talk without reading or having any idea of what you're saying: Per his topic, I gave that the crit chances for machine guns are so dastardly low that there's no need to reduce them at range. This was alongside the machine guns' MAXIMUM POTENTIAL crit damage for the given weapons in the given 2 time frame, maximum potential structure damage, and that ultimately MGs are ******* weak so just kill the guy and get over it. So I did feed the point of the original topic of what I quoted. Again though it was an argument or debate originally, Not advice and you should read your own advice and adhere to it by not giving advice..ever.)

Then I discovered that crits (edit for the machine gun family) don't work the way that ANY OTHER WEAPON does... and fed that discovery over. (Crits seem to function as crit per second, as crits per bullet at the values given by smurfy would make them single-handedly the most powerful weapon in the game.)

So where did you get crit health as any part of the actual topic? Because he didn't mention it. Only I ever mentioned it, and I gave the generalization that any equipment he had short of class 20 IS cannons (AC, UAC, and LBX), it'd basically lose any single piece of equipment in that time frame. Then I hit what was in the spoiler, and discovered that actually it wasn't true because PGI did something funny with MG crits and I shared it factually.

Which you clearly haven't read, but... then again you haven't done anything but read what you want to read anyway.

Edited by Koniving, 25 June 2018 - 04:07 AM.

[Blindbeard the Pirate]

If machine guns need a nerf can I have the old small pulse lasers back? Used to be you'd get 2-3 pulses and have to run away. Or maybe a massive buff to all of the other small lasers (especially the IS lasers). I mean I guess I could run a firestarter with a heavy gauss rifle if I really tried. But if machine guns get nerfed much further poptarting lights with craptons of consumables or ultra tanky lights that are actually mediums or heavies with their quirks will become my last options. The assassin was already basically the best light.

There are a ton of weapons and builds that can manage 5-12 DPS that don't require being under 120m, and a lot of mechs with enormous alphas (140+) or pinpoint alphas (like 80 with HGRs) that can oneshot or disable a mech outright. And those mechs aren't made out of paper. Can we not nerf one of the only builds that are letting paper thin mechs have a reasonable chance against a lone out of position mech?

[justcallme A S H]

Koniving, on 25 June 2018 - 03:58 AM, said:

I can't factor in the time to kill for EVERY PIECE OF EQUIPMENT, do you seriously have that much time on your hands?

Well you've had the time to posted two replies, totatling over 1000 words already that are apparently, on the topic? Seems you have the time. How have you not got it so wrong?

Either way whatever word soup you posted (i didn't read much, you don't understand MWO) means nothing TBH in the face of the issue - weapon crits. Not structure, equipment - weapons/DHS/targeting comps etc.

I mean you'd know that was the crux of the issue if you read the thread rather than going into word-soup mode.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 25 June 2018 - 06:04 AM.

[Tom Sawyer]

I just want what hairbrained gave us back

[The Lighthouse]

So far this thread does not disappoint me. More whining and arguing, closer to inevitable machinegun ghost heat implementation from PGI!

[lazorbeamz]

mg are weak, really. At least nothing special. if only everyone complained about lasers after being killed by them. Which happens all the time.

[Daggett]

When one player writes that weapon X is OP and another writes that it is weak, then it's probably alright.

lazorbeamz, on 25 June 2018 - 04:52 AM, said:

if only everyone complained about lasers after being killed by them. Which happens all the time.

I'm sure there are as much "Laser vomit OP" threads as there are "MG OP" threads...

Edited by Daggett, 25 June 2018 - 05:24 AM.

[Brizna]

I used to be a light pilot specialist about a year ago, I had been so most of my MWO career, then they nerfed SPLs and I stopped playing lights, even though after that impasse when only MPL lights remained useful when MGs where buffed and several omni-pods and new mechs that allowed boating them became available I didn't go back to light piloting. I simply do not enjoy staring a heavier mechs while spraying and praying something happens as much as I enjoyed a nicely aimed volley of SPLs. So lately I am piloting Assault mechs, mostly 2xHGAUSS assaults.

Light mechs with MGs are a nightmare, if they know what to do they can crit my gauss with little effort, they won't get me dead but they will cripple me if they get the jump on me, on the other hand if its me the one who spots them coming or they are not particularly smart to stay away from my cross-hair... well let's just say HGAUSS and light do not mix well together....

In addition I've found that playing assaults is a lot easier in that it requires much less work to make them work, once you are a reasonable player and you know to position yourself half decently doing 500 dmg is easy-peasy, the day I can successfully play my lights as drunk as I play my assaults some night I will call lights OP, not a second before.

[catsonmeth]

Solution: add rear armor.

MGs and LMGs are meh, HMGs are alright but need another buff to be worth the weight. High crit chance is just the answer to their stupid low damage. You don't want a straight machine gun damage buff. You also have to understand that crit seeking is a specialized role that's generally pretty useless. Those PIRs that you think are so terrifying are absolute smelly poo against every other fast mover in the game.

One real problem is that MGs are hitscan, so you can get hit with them even if the animation misses you, there's 0 calculation that goes into using them, and they pair too well with lasers.

But really, running any light is high risk. It should be high reward too.

[Weeny Machine]

You complain about a weapon which is only good when your armour is stripped off, has low range and needs facetime and has zero alpha potential. You do realize that?



Furthermore...
Spec into survival tree (crit reduction) and you will suddenly realize that MGs don't do much.

Pay attention to your surrounding and suddenly you can keep lights from ripping open your back

Use not only lolalpha laser builds and suddenly you do much better vs. lights (if you can aim a little bit)

[Weeny Machine]

Prototelis, on 24 June 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

This is generally how it goes when you face competent players.

So here we are again; Can you show me on the paper doll where the light mech touched you?

May I be of assistance. Two of my sheets. They are older but should do.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Problem isnt when its 3-4 of them its when theres 8-12 of the suckers if you dont have crit reduction they can liquidate unarmored sections faster than any other weapon combined with the speed of a light mech and any compitent light will just turn most mechs into dust that have been softened up by his team.

[Y E O N N E]

I can promise you that MGs do not liquidate components faster than my Mauler can. Or my Annihilator. Or even my humble Marauders and Warhammers.

[Vesper11]

Xeno Phalcon, on 25 June 2018 - 08:47 AM, said:

just turn most mechs into dust that have been softened up by his team.

That's how I used my Viper-C, it even has armor to take a few hits while finishing off mechs mid-fight, but after numerous laser nerfs its not as good, so I guess you want same the thing as I do - knifefighter laser buffs?

Edited by Vesper11, 25 June 2018 - 09:41 AM.

[Judah Malganis]

Quote

Problem isnt when its 3-4 of them its when theres 8-12 of the suckers if you dont have crit reduction they can liquidate unarmored sections faster than any other weapon combined with the speed of a light mech and any compitent light will just turn most mechs into dust that have been softened up by his team

I have an 8 MG Mist Lynx and a 6 MG ACH and assure it takes at least 4 seconds of continuous fire on a single open location to do any kind of significant internal damage/gear stripping, and that's with adding lasers to the mix. I've been playing assaults exclusively for the last week or so and I've only died to an MG Flea once, and I was already red on 2/3 torso locations, and I still managed to open its CT despite the idiot Annihilator beside me being more interested in firing AC2s at moving targets 800m away than in firing on the back of stationary light 90m away even after being told it was there. Every other MG light that rolled up on me either died or got chased off. I keep high single digit armor on my back parts to ensure MGs don't start hitting structure quickly, giving me time to start dancing. Once you start moving, MGs become far less dangerous due to scatter, even on exposed components.

MGs on lights are exactly like LRM boats; they SEVERELY punish those who lack situational awareness or insist on being out of position, which is a significant portion of the player base. That's why they are hated so much. It's not healthy for the game to keep nerfing weapons and mechs simply because players refuse to adjust their playstyle and loadouts (back armor, back-up weapons, etc.) to deal with known threats. We were all in a position where we got killed by that early on, but if you pay attention, you tend to evolve and get better with positioning and such, and they become more of a nuisance than threat.

Part of learning to play the game is, well, learning to play the game. Asking to have it nerfed to zero learning curve is counterproductive and will lead to a boring game no one wants to play.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 25 June 2018 - 09:45 AM.

[MechaBattler]

What if they just added a bar much like RACs? But instead of jams, it just slowed your rate of fire when it's full. You can still keep firing. It's just like 50% reduction. Each MG fills it faster. So it'll effect boating more.

They could always buff component health. It would be in keeping with their agenda to raise TTK.