63 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

MechaBattler, on 25 June 2018 - 09:56 AM, said:

What if they just added a bar much like RACs? But instead of jams, it just slowed your rate of fire when it's full. You can still keep firing. It's just like 50% reduction. Each MG fills it faster. So it'll effect boating more.

They could always buff component health. It would be in keeping with their agenda to raise TTK.

1. Because my MG Fleas and Mist Lynxes already have enough face time

2. Because TTK is already getting too long and all QP matches have devolved to mindless zerging because of it

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 25 June 2018 - 10:07 AM.

[Vesper11]

MechaBattler, on 25 June 2018 - 09:56 AM, said:

They could always buff component health. It would be in keeping with their agenda to raise TTK.

It's already hard to get through armor so it's not needed, the only thing it'll do is make flanker/vulture (already unpopular lights and some meds) gameplay even less rewarding.

Edited by Vesper11, 25 June 2018 - 10:08 AM.

[Daggett]

So far i can't remember being successfully backstabbed by a light mech, regardless of MGs or not.
They usually only get me when my team gets stomped and panics.

From my experience driving lights it all boils down to these two factors:

• How far behind your team are you? As a light pilot i attack the target which is not overwatched by his team. So by positioning alone you can minimize getting backstabbed. LRMs, PPCs and AC2s do not lose power when used at the front, there is no need to always use all the range if it makes you vulnerable to lights.
  
• How quickly do you react to a backstabber? Pilots who almost instantly turn the moment i shoot them often get out alive unless they are weak against lights like LRM-boats. If they ignore me however, they of cause die within seconds.

That's basically all you need to avoid getting shredded by light mechs most of the time as long as your team cohesion is intact.

Edited by Daggett, 25 June 2018 - 10:09 AM.

[Agent of Change]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 June 2018 - 10:02 AM, said:

1. Because my MG Fleas and Mist Lynxes already have enough face time

2. Because TTK is already getting too long and all QP matches have devolved to mindless zerging because of it

1. Fleas and Myst Lynxes are not the major issue Piranhas are... as the illogical extreme of boating Mg's. Any issue of fixing MG's Mostly has to look to addressing the extreme end of the boating. SO a jam bar is personally the ideal solution IMO and you can simply have it fill very slowly and increase the fill for each MG over say 4 that is being boated. so at least they cannot be fired nonstop from ecm/stealth mechs without at least some need to disengage and "cooldown"

2. TTK is not too long by any stretch of the imagination, any shorter it'll be another FPS game and not even a nod at a mech sim, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this but TTK has been too short for years.



Honestly the major issue is the the fact the effective DPS due to crit rate on MG's is ridiculous, so either they should have to wait until armro is tripped for them (no damage to armor, or there shoudl be something that puts the breaks occassionally on 6+ MG boating mechs.

Edited by Agent of Change, 26 June 2018 - 04:52 AM.

[dario03]

Agent of Change, on 25 June 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

1. Fleas and Myst Lynxes are not the major issue Piranhas are... as the illogical extreme of boating Mg's. Any issue of fixing MG's Mostly has to look to addressing the extreme end of the boating. SO a jam bar is personally the ideal solution IMO and you can simply have it fill very slowly and increase the fill for each MG over say 4 that is being boated. so at least they cannot be fired nonstop from ecm/stealth mechs without at least some need to disengage and "cooldown"

2. TTK is not too long by any stretch of the imagination, any shorter it'll be a one FPS game and not even a nod at a mech sim, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this but TTK has been too short for years.



Honestly the major issue is the the fact the effective DPS due to crit rate on MG's is ridiculous, so either they should have to wait until armro is tripped for them (no damage to armor, or there shoudl be something that puts the breaks occassionally on 6+ MG boating mechs.

The Piranha already has something to put the brakes on. Very low armor, its a glass cannon with the typical builds having very little range, somewhat limited ammo, and in the 1's case not a whole lot of backup weapons. And if anybody has trouble hitting it, the game has built in auto aim anti light weapons with 3x the optimal range of regular machine guns.

[Prototelis]

Koniving, on 25 June 2018 - 03:24 AM, said:

That depends on your armor.

Until the recent discovery I was under the impression an 8 LMG mech could do up to 8.12 damage per second against structure and 5.6 damage per second against armor.

After the recent discovery, I now know its 5.6 damage against armor and UP TO a maximum of 7.364 damage per second against structure.

So... you'll outperform it with two AC/5s.
Or a pair of AC/2s..
Or almost literally anything other than a flamer or TAGs.

Well 2 of anything, really.

Success really depends on getting the full burn of all three heavy smalls on the head hitbox. (nearly 20 damage). Lots of people trim face, so a full burn at best will give you orange structure most of the time. Enough to finish it up with the MGs, its instant death if they have ammo in their face.

[Prototelis]

Just going to throw this out there; Totally agree most weapons should stay intact longer, but I don't think large Ballistics need any help in that regard. Large pinpoint weapons should retain a certain risk factor, especially Gauss rifles.

[RustyBolts]

I find it REALLY FUNNY when I find that LRM/Sniper assault way behind the line by himself with little to no back armor. I come behind him and chew his back off and kill him. Then he spends the next several minutes in chat crying and complaining about how OP MG's are. Had this stellar tactician had situational awareness and not stayed behind by himself and had back armor, he would not have died to a weapon system with very short range, no pinpoint damage, requires a lot of face time and is ineffective against armor.

Edited by RustyBolts, 25 June 2018 - 12:07 PM.

[Antares102]

catsonmeth, on 25 June 2018 - 06:20 AM, said:

Solution: add rear armor.

/\ Dis !

• Have more than 2 as rear armor. Gives you much more time to counter MG lights.
  
• If you stand still add Seismic and watch minimap. Will give you enough time to twist before the light opens fire.
  
• General map and situational awareness.
  
• Constantly stay in motion and stand around (unless you have seismic)
  
• Dont play a super slow assault like Dire Wolf
  
• Git gud... every weapon system is OP if you suck.

Edited by Antares102, 25 June 2018 - 12:12 PM.

[Prototelis]

Dudes, I rarely run more than 2 back armor and have only been backstabbed to death a handful of times.

All you have to do is start twisting.

Force them to move or get on those A and D keys, throws the aim of a fast turning light mech really out of wack. Gives you enough time for support, or forces them to loop into your field of fire.

[Blindbeard the Pirate]

Agent of Change, on 25 June 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

1. Fleas and Myst Lynxes are not the major issue Piranhas are... as the illogical extreme of boating Mg's. Any issue of fixing MG's Mostly has to look to addressing the extreme end of the boating. SO a jam bar is personally the ideal solution IMO and you can simply have it fill very slowly and increase the fill for each MG over say 4 that is being boated. so at least they cannot be fired nonstop from ecm/stealth mechs without at least some need to disengage and "cooldown"

2. TTK is not too long by any stretch of the imagination, any shorter it'll be a one FPS game and not even a nod at a mech sim, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this but TTK has been too short for years.



Honestly the major issue is the the fact the effective DPS due to crit rate on MG's is ridiculous, so either they should have to wait until armro is tripped for them (no damage to armor, or there shoudl be something that puts the breaks occassionally on 6+ MG boating mechs.

Lots of generalizations here but the thing is if you consider nothing but being simply outplayed, it's probably going to take me 15-30 seconds to deal with a single assault by myself if they twist. And just knife fighting instead of using range and positioning opportunities is rarely the best choice unless you're running with multiple lights. Eventually they'll get a shot on you and you're made of paper. I'm normally coring out already weakened mechs, LRM boats, or out of position snipers (especially if I see IS PPCs on them) and chasing down other lights.

If I had lasers instead of machine guns, I could take their legs in half that time, even in their overnerfed state, from further way. People miss the old cSPLs and want the IS small lasers to be buffed because a playstyle that rewards precision instead of spray and pray hitscan crap feels much nicer. Machine guns aren't the problem. Machine guns are honestly mostly just good at mopping up and harassing weak mechs. They don't recoil or stun people like flamers and ACs.

The mist lynx is a large part of the problem. They can actually make use of positioning and jump jets, and with the extra lasers still have a very similar TTK to the piranha. Also, since the MGs are on the arms, you can actually AIM them and not have to rely on slowing yourself down or losing most of your damage to twisting. It's FAR harder to stop a lynx from coring you out than a piranha, but if **** goes south, the piranha has a better chance of getting away. I've got a 2.4 kdr on my lynx and only a 2.1 kdr in my piranha due to what I feel like is missed opportunity on a sizable quantity of maps, but it very much could be confirmation bias.

If you throw in a heat mechanic that effects its RoF without increasing its damage in some meaningful way, you're taking the weapon system that requires arguably the most face time and turning it into something that will only work in wolf packs. Do you want to see more wolf packs?

[poltergoost]

Honestly, if you hate lights that much, just strap on a couple of streaks and one of two things will happen

i) dumb light pilots will rush you, and you will laugh as your streaks rip them to shreds
ii) smart light pilots will see you pack streaks, and run off to pick an easier target

[poltergoost]

Of course, theres option iii) as well (my personal favourite)

iii) pick a streak boat that has ECM or that can match the lights for speed... then ambush the little pests, and laugh as the hunters become the hunted

[ShiverMeRivets]

Vesper11, on 25 June 2018 - 01:18 AM, said:

And have much lower range and have spread and require facetime and require more slots and can't burst like 2xUAC10.
Rather than nerf MGs other knifefighter weapons could use a buff, especially microcrap lasers.

Range and spread make little difference since lights attack big mechs from a few meters - if they try shooting a big mech from 250 meters, they'll get blasted since it can track them with its weapons. Also face time is not a hindrance because light mechs dont rely on twisting - they rely on running around the target and staying out of its weapon arcs.
And I love it when the respose to claims that one weapon is OP is to buff another weapon to its level, so you'll get OP alternatives...

[Dogstar]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 June 2018 - 08:50 AM, said:

I can promise you that MGs do not liquidate components faster than my Mauler can. Or my Annihilator. Or even my humble Marauders and Warhammers.

The point being that none of those mechs are exactly tricky to hit or capable of running around you in a circle every three seconds...

TT rules had penalties for moving at high speed, MWO has none at all - that is where a real problem lies.

[Prototelis]

ShiverMeRivets, on 25 June 2018 - 11:17 PM, said:

Also face time is not a hindrance because light mechs dont rely on twisting

Lol wut

[jjm1]

I've fended off more piranhas than have killed me, I think.

But yeah they can be pretty obnoxious when your already open and they descend like a pack of... some sort of biting animal.

[Weeny Machine]

Agent of Change, on 25 June 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

1. Fleas and Myst Lynxes are not the major issue Piranhas are... as the illogical extreme of boating Mg's. Any issue of fixing MG's Mostly has to look to addressing the extreme end of the boating. SO a jam bar is personally the ideal solution IMO and you can simply have it fill very slowly and increase the fill for each MG over say 4 that is being boated. so at least they cannot be fired nonstop from ecm/stealth mechs without at least some need to disengage and "cooldown"

2. TTK is not too long by any stretch of the imagination, any shorter it'll be a one FPS game and not even a nod at a mech sim, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this but TTK has been too short for years.



Honestly the major issue is the the fact the effective DPS due to crit rate on MG's is ridiculous, so either they should have to wait until armro is tripped for them (no damage to armor, or there shoudl be something that puts the breaks occassionally on 6+ MG boating mechs.

As someone already said: even in a PIR-1 people easily survive a backstab when they turn and are not sunken in their lol-alpha tunnel vision.
Tbh, the results of piloting a PIR is differing greatly. I have matches were I easily assassinate 2-3 heavies or assaults because they do not even react being shot in the back (and I am supposedly T1). Then there are games where I get maybe a 1-2 second window on a mech and then run off or risk of being stomped by the enemy team.

Also, if MGs are suuuuuch an issue: if people spec into crit reduction of the survival tree, it takes ages to really hurt them with MGs. Actually MGs feel like slapping someone with a wet towel and that's it.

Also, MGs are dps weapons with very low range. The light mech takes an incredible risk to get that close. If you cannot understand that, then try more often



Nevertheless, I wonder about this discussion. It is completely ok that a heavy or assault can 1 or 2-shot lights. They, however, throw a fit when a light mech actually can hurt them - provided the armour is stripped off or they did a piloting mistake and let someone sneak up on them. Imagine I would sneak up on you not with a light mech but with a heay and fire in your back or your armour were stripped and a heavy fires at you. In which scenario do you think, you would live longer?

So, I am sorry but it really boils down to: oh noes light can kill me. They are not supposed to be dangerous *bwaah waaaaah*

ShiverMeRivets, on 25 June 2018 - 11:17 PM, said:

Range and spread make little difference since lights attack big mechs from a few meters - if they try shooting a big mech from 250 meters, they'll get blasted since it can track them with its weapons. Also face time is not a hindrance because light mechs dont rely on twisting - they rely on running around the target and staying out of its weapon arcs.
And I love it when the respose to claims that one weapon is OP is to buff another weapon to its level, so you'll get OP alternatives...

1. Yeah, if you find a fatty mech which is idiotic enough to run on his own you can run up to him. If you run to a group of enemy and do not have ecm...you most certainly will have the whole group descend on you - especially if you sit in a PIR

2. Not twisting? Ummm...you do certainly someting wrong. With all those laser alphas you should twist, even while zigzag running

3. Not shooting from 250m? That's a sweet range for MPLs (my Wolfie for example) and that's why lights are mostly played as harassers. You run, pew pew, run on into cover so that the fatty has hardly a chance to pop you.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 26 June 2018 - 04:34 AM.

[Vesper11]

ShiverMeRivets, on 25 June 2018 - 11:17 PM, said:

Range and spread make little difference since lights attack big mechs from a few meters - if they try shooting a big mech from 250 meters, they'll get blasted since it can track them with its weapons. Also face time is not a hindrance because light mechs dont rely on twisting - they rely on running around the target and staying out of its weapon arcs.
And I love it when the respose to claims that one weapon is OP is to buff another weapon to its level, so you'll get OP alternatives...

How nice of you to make up your own narrative based on the post alone and ignoring the post it was quoting! Pachi-pachi-pachi, good job! But now it's time to remind that the quoted post was about "OP MGs are better than AC10".
And meanwhile I could remind you that lights are both unpopular and can't throw enough weight to impact outcome like heavies and assaults can (which is why knifefighting weapons could use a buff, assaults and heavies barely use them anyway, it's mid range peek QP meta now), also that it's fine when assaults kill you because it's a big guy with big guns but when lights do it it's suddenly a no-no, how could that pesky squirrel destroy the big 100t mech, what insolence!

[Daggett]

ShiverMeRivets, on 25 June 2018 - 11:17 PM, said:

Range and spread make little difference since lights attack big mechs from a few meters - if they try shooting a big mech from 250 meters, they'll get blasted since it can track them with its weapons.

That's not the case if the light is supporting a bigger threat like an assault. In fact i seem to have more consistent success with my LMG PIR-1 just shooting what my assaults shoot at instead of doing risky backstabbing with regular MGs. No one shoots you when there is an Annihilator near you that's more dangerous and easier to hit.

They also can't track you if you attack from the side and get back to cover before they can face you. In my experience 200-300m is a quite good distance for lights to fight at. Just make sure that the target is distracted and you are fine.

Edited by Daggett, 26 June 2018 - 04:47 AM.