60 replies to this topic

[Vesper11]

Okay, there's this thread https://mwomercs.com...o-small-groups/
While this thread is not about that, it does show that people (even though people visiting forums are minority compared to those who don't) want to be able to play with a friend and GQ doesn't cut it. I can't blame them~

Let's look at crap that we have in GQ now and why are those unhealthy:
1) Long queue times (off NA hours)
Murrica isn't the whole world and for everyone who plays outside of those hours it takes a lot of time to find a game. If you look at average player who plays casually close to 10 minutes of wait time is enough to stop playing that mode altogether as some people can only spare an hour or 2 after work, others lack patience and for absolutely everyone wasting more time waiting than playing is not fun.
2) Tonnage imbalance
MM doesn't give crap about tonnage, large groups have restrictions as a trade-off for much greater coordination thus if you want to win against large group you gotta use heavier mech but what about people that don't want to pilot heavier mechs? This leads to games where one team can consist of lights and mediums and another of heavies and assaults, outcome is obvious and not fun.
3) Large groups and Syncdrops
Because of low GQ population and long queue times currently it's very easy to sync drop and developer does nothing about it meaning that tonnage restrictions do not provide balance as intended, thus sometimes you get a large groups of very coordinated players with double the allowed tonnage which of course leads to an obvious outcome which is not fun.
4) Lack of (even crappy) MM and complete lack of balance
One bracket due to low amount of players, casuals duos who want to enjoy the game with friends dive into shark pool possibly getting stacked on one side leading yet to another obvious outcome which is again not fun.
All those obvious outcomes mean that players waste even more time without getting much fun - waste time in queue, waste time losing then waste time in queue again.

GQ is important, there are some games that exist for sole reason of playing with friend(s), yet in MWO GQ experience is negative fun, it's so bad it's more fun to play alone even when you have a friend to play with and for some people playing with friends is more important that other stuff so it's no wonder that MWO isn't popular, thus improving GQ is important to MWO health.
What should be an ideal fix is to make proper MM/PSR so that it sorts out and balance both solo players and groups, but making good MM/PSR isn't easy and PGI doesn't seem interested in it.

Thus comes those easy proposition (THAT WILL DRIVE YOU NUTS/insert another tabloid headline here)(that are easy to implement unlike proper MM):

Spoiler

1) Reduce maximum group size to one lance/4 players
- it will allow some resemblance of (crappy) MM/tonnage balance as it'll be possible to move the groups around instead of forcing 5+7 on one side and whatever stacks up on another.
- it will limit sync dropping meaning less obvious outcomes and move fun on average.
- less queue times as it's much more flexible to move around 2 3 4 player groups than work around cumbersome 5 or more player groups.
- it fits Mechwarrior "lance" format
SCRAPPED
2)

Allow the game start with 11vs11 as well as 12vs12 possibly 11vs12 too with like -120t or a bit more total tonnage balance for larger team, weighted by total group size coefficient.
- allows more balance, if 11vs11 provide better tonnage/(crappy)MM balance, it should be used.
- less sync drops because most of players play in duos it will mean that two uneven groups will have more chance to syncdrop and spoil the fun, 11vs11 will make sure it won't matter.
- reduce queue times, with 22 people waiting for some 30 seconds and not finding last duo (or instead finding trio or quad) the match can start without wasting anyone's time.
Specifically for 11vs12
- Even less queue times because the match can start without waiting for even number of players
- Odd-numbered groups won't see longer queue times
- Even easier to tonnage/(crappy)MM balance.
- Downside is that you get uneven amount of players but even in QP it happens way too often and the team without extra mech has a good chance of victory unless that disco mech is heavy or assault but because the teams are balanced before match starts such weight disbalance can be controlled by MM. For example if one group got less pilots their total weighted (bigger group = "heavier" light mechs) tonnage should should be ~20-40t more. MM can take care of that and if the tonnage doesn't give (or gives too much) advantage to smaller group it can be easily adjusted until statistical balance is achieved.

Spoiler

p.s. I'm sure some people want to play with group of 12 but play-with-friend experience (which is what GQ is about) is way more important than appeasing the minority. And, really, those 12man groups are either a few small groups of friends combined or a large unit where people can't really call each other "friends", I mean where have you met people who have 11 friends all of whom have the time after work to play the niche game at the same time? 4 man group is enough.

TL;DR: GQ sux/unpopular/ded, proposition is to reduce max group size to 4 and min team size to 11 to make it more balanced and have less queue times thus making it more populated and fun.

scrapped edition edit:
Seeing as some vocal minority people (and possibly silent majority of old players too) oppose the idea of one lance limit let's scrap that and go for 11v11 and possibly 11v12 which won't hurt anyone while providing free benefits.

Edited by Vesper11, 30 June 2018 - 10:08 AM.

[Mystere]

Vesper11, on 26 June 2018 - 06:09 AM, said:

1) Reduce maximum group size to one lance/4 players

PGI did this once. Do you know what happened?

There was a mass exodus of teamwork-oriented players, a whole lot of them.

Based on those results alone, it's a terrible idea.

[Bud Crue]

Sorry, but I have disconnect here...

What exactly do all the problems you identify and the possible changes you would like to make, have to do with the stated issue of wanting to play with a friend?

Just not following how lance sized groups addresses this or how tonnage imbalance is an issue (since you and your friend can take ANY two mechs that you desire and if you think folks don’t drop as pairs of Locusts or Piranhas you need to play GQ more often), etc. Sorry to be obtuse but I dont see the problems or changes you identify or suggest respectively have much to do with folks asserted inability to play with a friend. Perhaps the off NA prime time is a legit grevience, but the rest? Not seeing the relevance. Help me out.

[Verilligo]

Bud Crue, on 26 June 2018 - 06:30 AM, said:

Sorry, but I have disconnect here...

What exactly do all the problems you identify and the possible changes you would like to make, have to do with the stated issue of wanting to play with a friend?

Just not following how lance sized groups addresses this or how tonnage imbalance is an issue (since you and your friend can take ANY two mechs that you desire and if you think folks don’t drop as pairs of Locusts or Piranhas you need to play GQ more often), etc. Sorry to be obtuse but I dont see the problems or changes you identify or suggest respectively have much to do with folks asserted inability to play with a friend. Perhaps the off NA prime time is a legit grevience, but the rest? Not seeing the relevance. Help me out.

It seems he's charging that GQ is too much of a shark tank for smaller, casual groups to enjoy. He wants to cut back on sharks and believes group size is the ticket. I don't think he's met actual sharks in the tank, though.

[Vesper11]

Mystere, on 26 June 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

PGI did this once. Do you know what happened?

There was a mass exodus of teamwork-oriented players, a whole lot of them.

Based on those results alone, it's a terrible idea.

Teamwork-oriented players can't teamwork with the rest of the team? Why not enjoy FP as a more competitive mode instead? Is a whole lot of them more or less than vast majority that lacks non suck play-with-friends mode? Or was it yet another vocal minority?
You seem to dislike duo in QP too and now you dislike this too, so I guess from your point of view casual groups have no place in MWO?

Bud Crue, on 26 June 2018 - 06:30 AM, said:

Sorry, but I have disconnect here...

What exactly do all the problems you identify and the possible changes you would like to make, have to do with the stated issue of wanting to play with a friend?

Just not following how lance sized groups addresses this or how tonnage imbalance is an issue (since you and your friend can take ANY two mechs that you desire and if you think folks don’t drop as pairs of Locusts or Piranhas you need to play GQ more often), etc. Sorry to be obtuse but I dont see the problems or changes you identify or suggest respectively have much to do with folks asserted inability to play with a friend. Perhaps the off NA prime time is a legit grevience, but the rest? Not seeing the relevance. Help me out.

Folks do drop as pair of locust or piranhas and then you meet a team full of assaults and heavies and get rolled hard because MM.
It's not "inability" to play with friend, it's complete lack of balance and hueg waiting times that makes the whole play-with-friends experience so bad that I don't want to GQ anymore.

Verilligo, on 26 June 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:

It seems he's charging that GQ is too much of a shark tank for smaller, casual groups to enjoy. He wants to cut back on sharks and believes group size is the ticket. I don't think he's met actual sharks in the tank, though.

With big group sized that already crappy MM can do even less, smaller group sizes will give it more freedom to balance **** out.

Edited by Vesper11, 26 June 2018 - 06:48 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Hmm.

Still not getting it (save for the lack of population off hours aspect).

I play GQ nearly every day. At the start there is typically only 2-3 of us and more join as the evening wears on. Of those I play with, we often play some of the more ill thought of mechs in the game. None of us are particularly great at the game. Most are sleep deprived and/or driunk. We loose slightly more than we win at this point, but its close. And I say that as one with pretty mediocre stats to back up my claims of casual badness.

And that’s the thing, there are just as many bads (like me and some of mine) playing in GQ as their are super scary comp level folks. This whole issue of I can’t play with my buddy without getting stomped by near comp level 12 mans (etc.) is not only overblown but frankly the exception and not the rule. It is just not that traumatic as the threads of late make it out to be. But be that as it may, I don’t see how the changes you are proposing would change that perception (or for the sake of argument the asserted reality) of established groups stomping the two buddies. Good luck in the quest to change the nature of the queues, but as I asserted in the thread cited in the OP, PGI is not going to make ANY of the changes being proposed even if they had the ability.

[Mystere]

Vesper11, on 26 June 2018 - 06:43 AM, said:

Teamwork-oriented players can't teamwork with the rest of the team? Why not enjoy FP as a more competitive mode instead? Is a whole lot of them more or less than vast majority that lacks non suck play-with-friends mode? Or was it yet another vocal minority?

What I was trying to say is that during that time units broke up and were massively depopulated, assuming the unit itself survived at all.

Vesper11, on 26 June 2018 - 06:43 AM, said:

You seem to dislike duo in QP too and now you dislike this too, so I guess from your point of view casual groups have no place in MWO?

My views are quite simple on this matter: either completely separate solos from groups, or unify the queue.

However, if an interim solution is to be made, I say allow solos into the group queue. That's it.

All of that is coming from a 100% solo player.

[Prototelis]

Gq is mostly fine and has the healthiest population of all the group modes.

[Vesper11]

Bud Crue, on 26 June 2018 - 07:04 AM, said:

Hmm.

Still not getting it (save for the lack of population off hours aspect).

I play GQ nearly every day. At the start there is typically only 2-3 of us and more join as the evening wears on. Of those I play with, we often play some of the more ill thought of mechs in the game. None of us are particularly great at the game. Most are sleep deprived and/or driunk. We loose slightly more than we win at this point, but its close. And I say that as one with pretty mediocre stats to back up my claims of casual badness.

And that’s the thing, there are just as many bads (like me and some of mine) playing in GQ as their are super scary comp level folks. This whole issue of I can’t play with my buddy without getting stomped by near comp level 12 mans (etc.) is not only overblown but frankly the exception and not the rule. It is just not that traumatic as the threads of late make it out to be. But be that as it may, I don’t see how the changes you are proposing would change that perception (or for the sake of argument the asserted reality) of established groups stomping the two buddies. Good luck in the quest to change the nature of the queues, but as I asserted in the thread cited in the OP, PGI is not going to make ANY of the changes being proposed even if they had the ability.

Getting stomped by 12 man is somewhat rare (because they are somewhat rare) but I always question the reason why they exist as they bring nothing to the game except spoiling some games, and what do those 12 people get except easy victory? I don't mind established group stomps either, I just don't like when it's one side that gets all the fun, if it's 4 player it means you can get 2 good groups fighting each other, but if they go 5+7? To me it's "wasted N minutes in queue and now have to waste 5 more to die", could play 2 or 3 QP games during that time. All other stuff just adds to that, if it was one problem that might be okay but all those combined is what makes GQ GQ.
And yea, I doubt PGI will do anything (but I will lie to myself!) because if they wanted they would be working on MM/PSR instead.

Mystere, on 26 June 2018 - 07:08 AM, said:

What I was trying to say is that during that time units broke up and were massively depopulated, assuming the unit itself survived at all.

My views are quite simple on this matter: either completely separate solos from groups, or unify the queue.
However, if an interim solution is to be made, I say allow solos into the group queue. That's it.

All of that is coming from a 100% solo player.

Still, lack of numbers proves little, and still there's FP. There should be modes both for people who want maximum teamwork ((semi-)competitive 12 man groups) and for those who just want to casually play with friends, those can't coexist.
I think that unifying is best but for that we need proper MM/PSR. Solos into group queue... just how many people will do it? I don't mind seeing how it works out but I doubt it will at least somewhat popular.
(being a 100% solo player means you know no pain of GP?)

[Spheroid]

@Mystere: Would the solos operate on an opt in basis or would they be grabbed from anyone who clicked the Quick Play button?

Ideally it would be voluntarily, but with some offsetting benefit that counteracts the greater skill and mech composition spreads you would see. Perhaps a 10-20% earnings boost for having the group filler button checked.

Your idea has merit. I agree with it.

Edited by Spheroid, 26 June 2018 - 07:38 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Vesper11, on 26 June 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

Getting stomped by 12 man is somewhat rare (because they are somewhat rare) but I always question the reason why they exist as they bring nothing to the game except spoiling some games, and what do those 12 people get except easy victory?

They exist for the same reason the two buddies dropping together exist: people want to play with their friends. Some folks, at some times have more than just one friend playing. Sometimes you have more than 11 in which case you are forced to form a second group. Cest la.

What do they bring? Well, they bring the same thing other groups bring: a sense of team play in a game originally designed for team play, only more so. That plus they also bring Crabpeople and Hunchbros.

What do they get? An evening of running lighter mechs than they probably would like due to tonnage restriction but, well, tough nougies for them since like solo queue being for solos and group queue being for groups, that is just the way the game is set up.

[Stinger554]

Vesper11, on 26 June 2018 - 06:09 AM, said:

1) Reduce maximum group size to one lance/4 players

[Mystere]

Vesper11, on 26 June 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

Still, lack of numbers proves little, and still there's FP. There should be modes both for people who want maximum teamwork ((semi-)competitive 12 man groups) and for those who just want to casually play with friends, those can't coexist.
I think that unifying is best but for that we need proper MM/PSR. Solos into group queue... just how many people will do it? I don't mind seeing how it works out but I doubt it will at least somewhat popular.
(being a 100% solo player means you know no pain of GP?)

The fact that I thrived in CW as a pure solo -- and I know I am not alone -- was proof enough for me that solos and small groups can as well. I no longer drop, though, out of sheer boredom and mode stagnation.

And just in case you are unaware of the history of CW, when a solo queue was added, a lot of solos created their own 1-person units specifically to avoid it like the plague. I expect those same players -- assuming they're still around -- to go out and drop in the group queue.

As for numbers, can you realistically expect anyone to get those when PGI explicitly does not give them out? They can be deduced from the published QP and CW stats -- within reason. But that's the only thing available, and I am not going to do during my leisure time something I do at work. Those who really want the "numbers" can use those to do their own analysis -- unless someone is willing to pay me my off-hours rate. They ain't cheap, though.

Vesper11, on 26 June 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

Getting stomped by 12 man is somewhat rare (because they are somewhat rare) but I always question the reason why they exist as they bring nothing to the game except spoiling some games, and what do those 12 people get except easy victory?

Do you know what was my biggest pleasure in CW? It was spanking a 12-man in one night -- twice -- while being in a skittle team. It rarely happened. But it sure was an event when it did.

Edited by Mystere, 26 June 2018 - 07:53 AM.

[Stinger554]

Mystere, on 26 June 2018 - 07:50 AM, said:

And just in case you are unaware of the history of CW, when a solo queue was added, a lot of solos created their own 1-person units specifically to avoid it like the plague. I expect those same players -- assuming they're still around -- to go out and drop in the group queue.

Well it wasn't really a solo queue...it was a unit queue and a no unit queue which is significantly different.

[Mystere]

Spheroid, on 26 June 2018 - 07:35 AM, said:

@Mystere: Would the solos operate on an opt in basis or would they be grabbed from anyone who clicked the Quick Play button?

Ideally it would be voluntarily, but with some offsetting benefit that counteracts the greater skill and mech composition spreads you would see. Perhaps a 10-20% earnings boost for having the group filler button checked.

Your idea has merit. I agree with it.

I would assume it would be in an opt-in basis. Forcing solos into the group queue would be a terrible idea.

As for the earnings boost, that would be icing on the cake as far as I am concerned.

[Mystere]

Stinger554, on 26 June 2018 - 07:53 AM, said:

Well it wasn't really a solo queue...it was a unit queue and a no unit queue which is significantly different.

For all practical purposes: no units == solos. As far as I can recall, you could not drop as a group anyway.

[Stinger554]

Mystere, on 26 June 2018 - 08:02 AM, said:

For all practical purposes: no units == solos. As far as I can recall, you could not drop as a group anyway.

Maybe then(I doubt it), but definitely not now. no units != solos. Solos can have unit tags. no units do not. Which is why so many people made one-man units because most of the people who played CW back then were in a unit of some kind. Even now most of the people are in units.

I remember dropping in CW as a group several times during that time period I just don't remember if it was during that specific restriction or not.

PGI should separate Solos and groups the same way they do for QP because dropping against coordinated groups as a team full of solos isn't a fair match. Regardless of how much you might enjoy them Mister "I drop solo 100% of the time"

[Mystere]

Stinger554, on 26 June 2018 - 08:09 AM, said:

Maybe then(I doubt it), but definitely not now. no units != solos. Solos can have unit tags. no units do not. Which is why so many people made one-man units because most of the people who played CW back then were in a unit of some kind. Even now most of the people are in units.

I remember dropping in CW as a group several times during that time period I just don't remember if it was during that specific restriction or not.

PGI should separate Solos and groups the same way they do for QP because dropping against coordinated groups as a team full of solos isn't a fair match. Regardless of how much you might enjoy them Mister "I drop solo 100% of the time"

CW was supposed to be a quasi-simulation of warfare in the BT universe (well, assuming they actually did it as originally sold to the Founders). As such, I view a unit dropping a 12-person team against PUGs during an invasion as elite troops facing the local militia. It worked for me.

[PurplePuke]

I used to see all the threads about how difficult GQ was for groups of 2. Now I play in GQ with a buddy all the time and find all the complaints to be way over-exaggerated.

Running up against a 12 man group is extremely rare, and wait times are fine.

Just leave it alone.

[MischiefSC]

Vesper11, on 26 June 2018 - 06:43 AM, said:

Teamwork-oriented players can't teamwork with the rest of the team? Why not enjoy FP as a more competitive mode instead? Is a whole lot of them more or less than vast majority that lacks non suck play-with-friends mode? Or was it yet another vocal minority?
You seem to dislike duo in QP too and now you dislike this too, so I guess from your point of view casual groups have no place in MWO?

Folks do drop as pair of locust or piranhas and then you meet a team full of assaults and heavies and get rolled hard because MM.
It's not "inability" to play with friend, it's complete lack of balance and hueg waiting times that makes the whole play-with-friends experience so bad that I don't want to GQ anymore.


With big group sized that already crappy MM can do even less, smaller group sizes will give it more freedom to balance **** out.

So fun for the people in units isn't as important as fun for the casual players?

The population we have is so low right now not because solo/casual players all left but the many thousands of players who played in units (almost all very casual ones) left because the stuff that made playing in groups with your friends fun got nerfed. Be that limits on big groups in GQ so that the only way to play GQ was... not with all your friends but with only a few of them and full tryhard mode every time every game or because the whole point of loyalists and factions in faction warfare was deleted by One Bukkit rule.

People in teams still drop in QP. A lot. Drop in QP, see how many people have unit tags. Yes, the majority of drops in MWO are in QP queue but it's absolutely incorrect to say the majority of PLAYERS are casual solo pugs. Ironically units are what made the New Player Experience work for the years we had a growing population; they would constantly play, seek out new players and help teach them.

Honestly what's needed is to loosen the tonnage restrictions in GQ, allow solo players to opt into GQ and then have a coop queue for players vs AI. The issue is that PGI has made it clear that the last option won't happen here but will in MW5.