127 replies to this topic

[Battlemaster56]

Addressing clan lasers hope there no collateral damage when touching cerml and hll, and cgauss is being buttfucked again and with a pointless recoil mechanic that anybody who use hgr know how to bypass it.

So what's gonna happen the skill gap widen more and skill players will dominate the weak and everyone will be less happy.

[Asym]

It appears that people complaining about TTK in Solaris and other places has PGI's attention. Many of us predicted that PGI needed to "de-evolve" weapons effectiveness for Solaris to work over a year ago now. And, they are still working towards close, long lasting battles because that's what Solaris needs to be a "simple and long lasting experience".... That's what sells mechs......

Soon, there will be not much left to fight with and I've jokingly said "you'll have melee weld on weapons" soon..... Maybe, that will be sooner than later.....

Edited by Asym, 27 June 2018 - 03:55 AM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Accurate depiction of forum posts when this goes live.



Yessss the salt must flooowww!

[El Bandito]

Xeno Phalcon, on 27 June 2018 - 04:14 AM, said:

Accurate depiction of forum posts when this goes live.

Yessss the salt must flooowww!

I won't be among them. I'm actually looking forward to those changes going live. Only then PGI can start lowering IS quirks, and IS mechs can finally start casting off these quirk crutches.

People who are making a big deal of it have no vision for the long term balancing.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 June 2018 - 04:41 AM.

[Draven Knightfall]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 June 2018 - 08:19 PM, said:

Longer duration lasers is not a sustainable approach. Clan lasers are already borderline useless on Clan Lights, to the point where IS dominate them when it comes to energy builds. Note, when I say Lights I am not talking about faux mediums like the KFX, ADR, and COU. I mean the "classic" hit-and-run, duelist, assassin Lights like the JR7-IIC, ACH, PIR, MLX, and soon the INC. Like, what do they have that compares with 6x IS Medium Lasers? The closest they have is 4x cMPL, which is hotter and heavier once you add in the extra heatsinks the lighter IS MedLas build affords. And the IS Medium Pulse? Clans have nothing there. Some have found cSPL to remain serviceable on Lights, but frankly I can get the same kind of performance out of a wombo-combo of IS MPL and IS SL/ERSL for the same weight, similar heat, similar range, and better damage.

So, if we increase face-time to reel in the fatmechs, are Clan Lights supposed to just continue being meh unless they are MG boats? Are we going to quirk them all for laser duration? Even for the fatmechs, how are Clan ERLL then supposed to win trades at all with ERLL Battlemasters? Do we then nerf the IS ERLL? How far are we going to ride this train until we end up back where we started?

Nope. Not going to work. Heat, too, is not an option because the Lights are again going to feel the brunt of it.

Really, none of the "nerf Clan" options seem to do anything helpful without shafting their Lights and bad Mechs. Shorter cool-downs to level the DPS playing field between IS and Clan lasers and slightly more potent IS DHS would basically solve the bulk of the disparity without sacrificing the flavor. But then you get the TTK crowd crowing...

Longer beam duration introduced counter-play to lasers and an actual weakness, especially with higher damage lasers. And on top of it, it started punishing bad decisions instead of rewarding it, and that was unacceptable to the laser fan crowd. We can't have any drawbacks to lasers, now can we? They have to compete or be better across the board with weapons that rely on ammo and have additional drawbacks lasers don't or never will.

Right now the only real counter to lasers are moar lasers. This is exactly why we're in the laser arms race today, and going to stay in for a while. Numbers won't be drastic enough to change that.

Actually, I shouldn't say that. If anything, PGI has a history of going WAAAY too far into left field.

Edited by Draven Knightfall, 27 June 2018 - 05:29 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Vellron2005, on 26 June 2018 - 11:32 PM, said:

I'm so happy I'm a LRM boat user..

Soon we will all be LRM users.
It seems to be what PGI wants.

[BigBenn]

Clan tech is superior, or it should be rather. I don't have an answer but reducing damage to Clan lasers is certainly not the answer. I think the thing plaguing laser play is how they are used en masse, it is way too easy to have a mech full of lasers, shoot, shoot again, heat up, hide, run, and shoot, shoot again (rinse and repeat) The way to combat that is to promote the chain firing, or "group chain fire" (more than 1 group of weapons on a single trigger (I've suggested this in the past a few times), promote a weapon diversity, and RAMP THE F OUT OF GHOST HEAT FOR ALPHA STRIKES AND SAME-SAME WEAPONS!!! That goes for lasers, missiles, and ballistics. The mechs that rely on one type of weapons group only (Grasshopper, Archer, Piranhas) would all get a default quirk to help with heat.

No more than 2 LL, 4 ML, and 5 SL, or any sort, fired at the same time, should be common place. Ramp up the ghost heat, promote chain firing (or group chain firing better yet), and get other weapons mounted to keep the heat down.

Gauss... remove the charge up and increase the cool down to 8 seconds (yes, EIGHT seconds). Light gauss to 7 seconds, heavy gauss to 9 seconds. Try it for a month or two. Give it a try, PGI. Just try it. The charge up is ***-inine.

[Stinger554]

LordNothing, on 26 June 2018 - 10:08 PM, said:

heres the thing that bothers me about this:

laser alphas stack better on the clan side so why are we adding recoil to gauss?

this is what pgi likes to do they have a simple well defined problem and then they expand it to include other less severe problems, the result will be a fix that does not solve the original problem but solves some strawman issue instead. this is why energy draw failed.

it also doesnt close the arbitrary gh loopholes which are an even bigger problem imho.

Well compare IS gauss and Clan gauss. IS one is 15 tons 7 slots; Clan is 12 tons 6 slots. With the only differences being 10 hp vs 5 hp and 90% chance to explode vs 100% chance.

PGI believes that there isn't significant trade off for the clan gauss to be 3 tons lighter and 1 slot less. Personally I agree. gauss hp needs to be upped for both and a different method of balancing them needs to be implemented.

However gauss recoil is stupid and in practice won't accomplish much, just like Hgauss.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

El Bandito, on 27 June 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

I won't be among them. I'm actually looking forward to those changes going live. Only then PGI can start lowering IS quirks, and IS mechs can finally start casting off these quirk crutches.

People who are making a big deal of it have no vision for the long term balancing.

Quirks were and are the only reason that certain mechs and chassis get played. The more quirks that vanish, the more mehcs become completely obsolete over meta mechs. Your willingness to play a mech because "it's fun" only goes so far and can't be used as a means to entice people to use it.

Asym, on 27 June 2018 - 03:55 AM, said:

It appears that people complaining about TTK in Solaris and other places has PGI's attention. Many of us predicted that PGI needed to "de-evolve" weapons effectiveness for Solaris to work over a year ago now. And, they are still working towards close, long lasting battles because that's what Solaris needs to be a "simple and long lasting experience".... That's what sells mechs......

Soon, there will be not much left to fight with and I've jokingly said "you'll have melee weld on weapons" soon..... Maybe, that will be sooner than later.....

So, reduce those weapons in SOLARIS. Believe me. It makes sense if we want to play lore. Weapon systems are adjusted to give a better show and better ratings. If they are considering Solaris while trying to balance regular play, this will NOT end well.

Can they even offer different weapon values for solaris and regular play? People should ask.

BurningDesire, on 27 June 2018 - 01:08 AM, said:

yay still not addressing dual HGR vs anything smaller than a 60T heavy, cause you know nothing like being 1 shot.
guess i can use my skills and roll the damage like lasers.................

For lighter mechs, situational awareness is paramount when you think heavy gauss is around. AC 20s can core you out just as well. Don't stand still, don't offer your back to the enemy. I've been getting fairly good at snap shots at running lights though so good luck.

I think HGauss is fine. It's very fragile. That's a VERY large costly weapon that can be dusted by a random spray from machine guns.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 27 June 2018 - 07:44 AM.

[Zibmo]

Nightbird, on 26 June 2018 - 08:48 PM, said:

Every change, no matter how welcome or despised, can be traced back to a suggestion from the community.

Buckle your seat belts for the actual decease in damage.

Personally, I think that would make matches more fun. I like a longer TTK. Either buff armor or decrease damage.

Already buckled.

[El Bandito]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 27 June 2018 - 07:43 AM, said:

Quirks were and are the only reason that certain mechs and chassis get played. The more quirks that vanish, the more mehcs become completely obsolete over meta mechs. Your willingness to play a mech because "it's fun" only goes so far and can't be used as a means to entice people to use it.

Negative. There is absolutely no reason meta IS mechs would need quirks, once tech/weapons are balanced. Quirks should only be reserved for mechs that are less than stellar.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 June 2018 - 07:48 AM.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

you misunderstood. That's exactly what I said.

[El Bandito]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 27 June 2018 - 07:50 AM, said:

you misunderstood. That's exactly what I said.

Then you should be looking forward those these nerfs, as paring down Clan power opens up the way for top IS mechs to finally compete without quirks.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 June 2018 - 08:07 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 27 June 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

I won't be among them. I'm actually looking forward to those changes going live. Only then PGI can start lowering IS quirks, and IS mechs can finally start casting off these quirk crutches.

People who are making a big deal of it have no vision for the long term balancing.

Lower damage on Clan lasers I'm open to if done correctly, and along with some duration decrease as well.

CGauss recoil? Dumb.

[MechaBattler]

I would have thought recoil on gauss would have been the lesser of two evils. /shrug

They already tried longer durations in the past. Didn't work out too well. And the heat is already pretty high. Even cooldown is already high. If they nerf that anymore it'll be up there with PPCs and co. I kinda doubt it'll change much, except making clans even worse brawlers.

It makes sense to bump down damage and buff other stats. They're already at extremes with the other stats. But it remains to be seen how that will shake out.

[yrrot]

The CGauss recoil just addresses the most common weapon to pair with high-alpha laser vomit. It forces that Deathstrike to shoot the extra 30 pinpoint damage at the end of the lasers, rather than in the beginning or middle of the burn. The HGR recoil is manageable, just like this will be. You're just buying time for the target to twist so the full damage doesn't hit the same component.

If the goal is to reduce TTK, then weapon nerfs are the order of the day. Their other option is to just keep cranking up survival quirks. Maybe the community would be better off if they just did mass nerfs all together and started doing buffs every patch, rather than easing things down to where they want them. lol

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 27 June 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

I would have thought recoil on gauss would have been the lesser of two evils. /shrug

They already tried longer durations in the past. Didn't work out too well. And the heat is already pretty high. Even cooldown is already high. If they nerf that anymore it'll be up there with PPCs and co. I kinda doubt it'll change much, except making clans even worse brawlers.

It makes sense to bump down damage and buff other stats. They're already at extremes with the other stats. But it remains to be seen how that will shake out.

Whats the other evil? You mean less of an issue than nerfing Clan laser damage?

I mean, it just makes it annoying to use. Nerfing Clan laser damage at least sort of addresses the Clan vs IS laser vomit disparity. If its done well, I would be receptive to the idea.

Hard pass on the gauss recoil though. It is very annoying.

yrrot, on 27 June 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

You're just buying time for the target to twist so the full damage doesn't hit the same component.

That makes it less effective against good players, but the status quo vs the average player.

[Battlemaster56]

yrrot, on 27 June 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

The CGauss recoil just addresses the most common weapon to pair with high-alpha laser vomit. It forces that Deathstrike to shoot the extra 30 pinpoint damage at the end of the lasers, rather than in the beginning or middle of the burn. The HGR recoil is manageable, just like this will be. You're just buying time for the target to twist so the full damage doesn't hit the same component.

If the goal is to reduce TTK, then weapon nerfs are the order of the day. Their other option is to just keep cranking up survival quirks. Maybe the community would be better off if they just did mass nerfs all together and started doing buffs every patch, rather than easing things down to where they want them. lol

Twist damage, yea good luck with that one since agility sucks across the board all you doing is buying yourself a extra second before someone finish the job, and if there is more than two people shooting at you well kiss your mech goodbye.

And if you want to reduce TTK, best way is not more quirks but giving some good amount of agility back to the game(and not to the point we got fat ballerinas), so damage can be manage better during a fight especially during a high laser alpha meta.

[MechaBattler]

The other suggestion they were putting out for Gauss nerf was reducing the damage. I thought that sounded worse. ;o

This due to their stated reason being the C-Gauss is 3 tons lighter than it's IS counterpart for the same damage.

Edited by MechaBattler, 27 June 2018 - 10:37 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 27 June 2018 - 10:35 AM, said:

The other suggestion they were putting out for Gauss nerf was reducing the damage. I thought that sounded worse. ;o

This due to their stated reason being the C-Gauss is 3 tons lighter than it's IS counterpart for the same damage.

The only thing I would do to balance Gauss is make the IS version much more durable. CGauss is only really dominant when combined with giga laser alphas from what I remember which is addressed, in part, by reducing laser damage.