127 replies to this topic

[MechaBattler]

I dunno that component health would really set it apart with how quickly other weapons get blown out. I suppose they could always remove the explosion too. But then you're only getting an advantage after your armor has been breached and you're on your way out. For 3 more tons doesn't seem as worth it. Maybe an ammo buff would bridge the gap. If an IS gauss needs half as much ammo as the Clan version. It would make up the weight difference enough.

[SFC174]

El Bandito, on 27 June 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

I won't be among them. I'm actually looking forward to those changes going live. Only then PGI can start lowering IS quirks, and IS mechs can finally start casting off these quirk crutches.

People who are making a big deal of it have no vision for the long term balancing.

The problem is in the order and duration of these changes. If you nerf clans some more and then wait a couple months to see what happens before you nerf IS quirks, you're going to get a bunch of clanners reducing their playtime toward zero in the interim. If you reduce IS quirks before nerfing clan dmg output, then a bunch of IS players are going to say f*** it.

PGI doesn't have the player base to afford to do this the wrong way.

Either they can make very small, piecemeal changes in alternating order (for example, CERML -1 dmg, CHLL -2 dmg, then IS armor quirks reduced by 20% across the board, and so on), or they can lose more players.

A lot of people may not be happy with the smaller, piecemeal changes, but any other path is going to piss off the players base to extreme levels.

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 27 June 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

I dunno that component health would really set it apart with how quickly other weapons get blown out. I suppose they could always remove the explosion too. But then you're only getting an advantage after your armor has been breached and you're on your way out. For 3 more tons doesn't seem as worth it. Maybe an ammo buff would bridge the gap. If an IS gauss needs half as much ammo as the Clan version. It would make up the weight difference enough.

For X more tons is almost never worth it on the IS side. Reduce IS cooldown a tad if you want more. But yeah not exploding would be real nice for IS Gauss, because then you don't get instakilled if you have a Gauss in your ST and an XL engine.

[Ghogiel]

SFC174, on 27 June 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

The problem is in the order and duration of these changes. If you nerf clans some more and then wait a couple months to see what happens before you nerf IS quirks, you're going to get a bunch of clanners reducing their playtime toward zero in the interim. If you reduce IS quirks before nerfing clan dmg output, then a bunch of IS players are going to say f*** it.

PGI doesn't have the player base to afford to do this the wrong way.

Either they can make very small, piecemeal changes in alternating order (for example, CERML -1 dmg, CHLL -2 dmg, then IS armor quirks reduced by 20% across the board, and so on), or they can lose more players.

A lot of people may not be happy with the smaller, piecemeal changes, but any other path is going to piss off the players base to extreme levels.

clan lasers aren't really dominating any particular meta right now in such a way that simply nerfing them would warrent a global reduction in IS armor quirks. There are a lot of clan lasers, they shouldn't really be nerfing clan lasers much, and most will probably not be nerfed at all anyway because they are already not being used in an meta because they are inferior options.

[kuma8877]

SFC174, on 27 June 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

The problem is in the order and duration of these changes. If you nerf clans some more and then wait a couple months to see what happens before you nerf IS quirks, you're going to get a bunch of clanners reducing their playtime toward zero in the interim. If you reduce IS quirks before nerfing clan dmg output, then a bunch of IS players are going to say f*** it.

PGI doesn't have the player base to afford to do this the wrong way.

Either they can make very small, piecemeal changes in alternating order (for example, CERML -1 dmg, CHLL -2 dmg, then IS armor quirks reduced by 20% across the board, and so on), or they can lose more players.

A lot of people may not be happy with the smaller, piecemeal changes, but any other path is going to piss off the players base to extreme levels.

There's definitely some danger here to be sure. Part of the problem, is PGI's commitment to a monthly patch schedule. I would like to see a brief shift to a faster paced schedule for balancing patches to make iterations come together quicker for both sides. While the PTS is good, it almost never draws the needed #'s for solid metrics of what's really going on with the changes in the general public's hands. Working hand in hand with players for a month or two could be great PR if the end result is something good for both parties (PGI/Playerbase).

[MechaBattler]

There was a brief few months leading up to Steam launch where they were doing 2 patches a month. And it worked out great. It also gave us more to talk about on the forums. Then they switched back to 1 per month and even claimed it would have better quality control. Yet every patch has undocumented changes of late and models have questionably model changes.

[La Douche]

I'm interested in knowing exactly what problem is being addressed here.

Do Clan lasers need to be nerfed because equipping them immediately gives an advantage over IS mechs or other Clan weapon systems to any pilot, in any mech, in any gamemode? Or is the problem much more specific? It sounds like the issue centers around heavy clan mechs that mount a pair of HLL and 6-8 ERML, or am I getting that wrong? Or is this about Solaris, or faction play?

I love playing the Metabringer in QP, and would agree that it's perhaps a tad too easy to get kills. But I spend most of my time in smaller mechs, including an inordinate amount of time in Novas, because that mech just feels right to me (finally got my AoS in one last night, this is all about me right?). The Nova has gotten slapped around every time clan lasers have gotten nerfed, and from what I can gather Novas aren't the problem.

Clearly the success or failure of balance changes doesn't hinge on my personal preferences in imaginary fighting machines, but I mean this as an example: how many mechs that are not problematic get dragged down every time we try and fix specific complaints elsewhere in the game?

Edited by La Douche, 27 June 2018 - 12:39 PM.

[SFC174]

Ghogiel, on 27 June 2018 - 11:16 AM, said:

clan lasers aren't really dominating any particular meta right now in such a way that simply nerfing them would warrent a global reduction in IS armor quirks. There are a lot of clan lasers, they shouldn't really be nerfing clan lasers much, and most will probably not be nerfed at all anyway because they are already not being used in an meta because they are inferior options.

You are certainly better placed to call the meta than I am. However, we don't seem to be reading the same utterances from PGI (Chris, Russ, etc.). All they seem concerned about is the massive clan alpha. And the biggest offender there is the higher dmg output of clan lasers. They tried to nerf them a couple months ago, and they're going to try again.

If clan lasers aren't the balance problem requiring the relatively substantial IS armor quirks, then what is? We've already seen that IS chassis are generally the preferred choice in Solaris. And IS seems to have pulled to parity or better in faction battles as well. Where are they going? (not that I'm all that clear on what they _think_ their end goal is).

[MechaBattler]

The stated goal of the changes is to bring Clan alpha closer to IS alpha. Not the same. But closer. And the Gauss change to address the fact the Clan version is 3 tons lighter. Course their stated goal doesn't mean much to this rabid playerbase.

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 27 June 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:

The stated goal of the changes is to bring Clan alpha closer to IS alpha. Not the same. But closer. And the Gauss change to address the fact the Clan version is 3 tons lighter. Course their stated goal doesn't mean much to this rabid playerbase.

I mean, unless I'm missing something, the only case where cGauss is strong is when it is stacked with Clan lasers. That combination is already getting a damage nerf (ER MLs and HLLs are probably on the top of the list for damage nerfs). Following the Gauss vomit nerf, I'm not sure that cGauss recoil is necessary.

IS Gauss is pretty worthless and should be buffed to the point of mediocrity.

[El Bandito]

SFC174, on 27 June 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

The problem is in the order and duration of these changes. If you nerf clans some more and then wait a couple months to see what happens before you nerf IS quirks, you're going to get a bunch of clanners reducing their playtime toward zero in the interim. If you reduce IS quirks before nerfing clan dmg output, then a bunch of IS players are going to say f*** it.

PGI doesn't have the player base to afford to do this the wrong way.

Either they can make very small, piecemeal changes in alternating order (for example, CERML -1 dmg, CHLL -2 dmg, then IS armor quirks reduced by 20% across the board, and so on), or they can lose more players.

A lot of people may not be happy with the smaller, piecemeal changes, but any other path is going to piss off the players base to extreme levels.

I wouldn't expect anything other than small changes. So there is no problem for me.

[SFC174]

El Bandito, on 27 June 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

I wouldn't expect anything other than small changes. So there is no problem for me.

I have less faith in PGI than you I suppose (touches C-SPL scar). We shall see.

[Ghogiel]

SFC174, on 27 June 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

You are certainly better placed to call the meta than I am. However, we don't seem to be reading the same utterances from PGI (Chris, Russ, etc.). All they seem concerned about is the massive clan alpha. And the biggest offender there is the higher dmg output of clan lasers. They tried to nerf them a couple months ago, and they're going to try again.

If clan lasers aren't the balance problem requiring the relatively substantial IS armor quirks, then what is? We've already seen that IS chassis are generally the preferred choice in Solaris. And IS seems to have pulled to parity or better in faction battles as well. Where are they going? (not that I'm all that clear on what they _think_ their end goal is).

The irony is it's things like IS balistics. If the IS lost their armor quirks and clan lasers were nerfed TK would actually go down> clan mechs would still be as easy to kill as well as IS would be too, the DPS race would be shorter for the current dakka meta. Additionally, that would hurt brawl as well as that does better the longer the fight goes on so the brawler DPS can start pull ahead after taking the initial dmg on the push.

To be clear when we are talking about clan lasers, we are only talking about CERML and CMPL almost exclusively. While there are a couple other lasers you can make some pretty big boogey man woo woo alpha builds with, but they fall into the niche of almost backups because don't synergise with other weaps for cooldown/range or are pure lasers brawlers/laser serm builds and you rarely see them at any level of mildly competent play. And really its the CMPL and CERML that people are but hurt about.

Edited by Ghogiel, 27 June 2018 - 02:37 PM.

[Grus]

I do not consent...

[LordNothing]

Stinger554, on 27 June 2018 - 07:24 AM, said:

Well compare IS gauss and Clan gauss. IS one is 15 tons 7 slots; Clan is 12 tons 6 slots. With the only differences being 10 hp vs 5 hp and 90% chance to explode vs 100% chance.

PGI believes that there isn't significant trade off for the clan gauss to be 3 tons lighter and 1 slot less. Personally I agree. gauss hp needs to be upped for both and a different method of balancing them needs to be implemented.

However gauss recoil is stupid and in practice won't accomplish much, just like Hgauss.

point is singling out the gauss problem is silly because it ignores the core problem. there are a lot of high alpha loopholes in the ghost heat system. closing up one loophole just shifts the problem to other loopholes. even energy draw centered around the gauss problem and that system ended up being a convoluted mess that everyone hated.

my algorithm driven ghost heat thread covered some ideas for an alternative using math fixes only. heat penalty depends on weapons fired and the current heat state of the mech such that loophole shots get penalized appropritately without hurting sub-meta configurations in the process. the proper way to fix the gauss problem is to give them a penalty multiplier such that if you fire them while in a high penalty state, you could end up producing as much heat as a ppc. firing gauss with ppc/vomit would be ok for an opening volly but subsequent shots would require more time to cool off.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 June 2018 - 04:43 PM.

[FupDup]

For Clam Goose Waffles I'd like to see two things:

1. For the nerf part, increase the heat a few points (still better damage per heat than most energy weapons of course). This keeps the weapon effective by itself but reduces it ability to combine with lasers and peepers.

2. For the compensation buff, increase the health so that the weapon isn't a liability outside of well-protected arm mounts. Let more Clan gundams actually use the Goose Waffle. And yes, IS Gauss could also use more health too.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 27 June 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

I won't be among them. I'm actually looking forward to those changes going live. Only then PGI can start lowering IS quirks, and IS mechs can finally start casting off these quirk crutches.

People who are making a big deal of it have no vision for the long term balancing.

Making weapons less fun to use is never a good solution


This will severely reduce the fun factor of cGauss


Their "recoil" is just annoying

[IllCaesar]

I play almost entirely IS but I think the clan lasers are mostly fine. If you want to change them I'd recommend increasing their burn times or increasing cooldown rather than decreasing damage. Otherwise they're just closer and closer to IS lasers.I think Clans and IS should remain distinct because they're far more similar now than they were when they were introduced.

As for the Clan Gauss, I don't really have a strong opinion but adding recoil doesn't seem to matter that much given that mechs with Gauss will almost certainly have two of them that fire at the same time, usually with some combination of lasers, so it'll just wiggle the lasers a bit before they're done burning. I doubt that it'll make the meaningful difference you're looking for. Maybe slightly increase the charge time per gauss rifle on the mech? I dunno really, I don't like Gauss Rifles in MWO because of that charge. Just copying the HGR seems a tad lazy though.

Edited by IllCaesar, 27 June 2018 - 05:15 PM.

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 27 June 2018 - 04:53 PM, said:

Making weapons less fun to use is never a good solution

This will severely reduce the fun factor of cGauss

Their "recoil" is just annoying

Perhaps, but I certainly never had an issue with HGR's recoil before, and I use it a lot. I also suggested to buff IS Gauss instead of nerfing Clan one, or meet half way.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 27 June 2018 - 05:38 PM, said:

Perhaps, but I certainly never had an issue with HGR's recoil before, and I use it a lot. I also suggested to buff IS Gauss instead of nerfing Clan one, or meet half way.

HGR-laser builds are better off because most of the punch comes from the HGR anyway.