18 replies to this topic

[Brenden]

If a suicidal Mechwarrior retooled his fusion engine to NOT have the plasma shield that protected it collapse, or even appear, to keep the engine intact and found a way to force a meltdown of the fuel inside, could it be possible for the Mechwarrior to force their engine to have a nuclear meltdown and explode?

[Bombast]

No.

Battlemechs use fusion engines, and the fusion process cannot sustain itself like fission can. The very act of losing containment shuts down the reaction. In the lore, the worst thing that can happen is akin to a boiler explosion - The engine fails catastrophically and its components are thrown out, violently. But you don't get an actual nuclear explosion.

There are optional rules in battletech that do allow for 'nuclear failure,' inspired by the act of Stackpoling (Stackpole was a writer for battletech that did have his mechs explode in spectacularly violent ways, regardless of the fluff), and you can actually equip battlemechs with fission engines (Which are absolutely terrible), but otherwise no.

[Brenden]

Bombast, on 30 June 2018 - 08:16 PM, said:

No.

Battlemechs use fusion engines, and the fusion process cannot sustain itself like fission can. The very act of losing containment shuts down the reaction. In the lore, the worst thing that can happen is akin to a boiler explosion - The engine fails catastrophically and its components are thrown out, violently. But you don't get an actual nuclear explosion.

There are optional rules in battletech that do allow for 'nuclear failure,' inspired by the act of Stackpoling (Stackpole was a writer for battletech that did have his mechs explode in spectacularly violent ways, regardless of the fluff), and you can actually equip battlemechs with fission engines (Which are absolutely terrible), but otherwise no.

Huh. I gotta look up this Stackpole guy. He sounds like the Michael Bay of Battletech.
Is your name a reference to the Bombast Laser?

I had an idea for a short story, completely ridiculous, where a pilot during the Star League invasion of Clan territory found their way to Strana Mechty and forced their engine to go nuclear.

[Bombast]

Brenden, on 30 June 2018 - 08:19 PM, said:

Huh. I gotta look up this Stackpole guy. He sounds like the Michael Bay of Battletech.

http://www.sarna.net...el_A._Stackpole
https://en.wikipedia...el_A._Stackpole

Quote

Is your name a reference to the Bombast Laser?

No.

Quote

I had an idea for a short story, completely ridiculous, where a pilot during the Star League invasion of Clan territory found their way to Strana Mechty and forced their engine to go nuclear.

Keep in mind that both the Clans and the Successor States find the use of nuclear weapons to be war crimes of the highest order. There usage during Great Refusal would have likely resulted in the Clans declaring the results void and re-invading the Inner Sphere.

[evilauthor]

Technically speaking, Battlemechs are ALREADY nuclear since they all have fusion engines. Fusion is a nuclear process after all.

And yes, Stackpole had mechs whose fusion engines can explode. But even then, that explosion is only powerful enough to destroy the mech itself and possibly damage nearby enemy units (near as in "literally within a mech's arm's reach"). Certainly nothing close to a nuclear bomb in terms of yield.

The one time an fusion engine explosion caused nuke level destruction was when it was used to set off copious amounts of conventional explosives that had been planted in advance.

[The6thMessenger]

I'm pretty sure that a nuclear explosion, would be either fission or fusion chain reaction. A nuclear powerplant -- assuming simmilar but smaller scale for mechs, they have different processes, different environments they foster.

The atomic bombs used in Nagasaki and Hiroshima uses gun-type and implosion type, in which the result is that the sub-critical mass goes critical either by an initial explosion that collapses the sub-critical mass, or a forceful impact of one mass to another. Another is a fusion explosion, by using an initial atomic explosion to fuse hydrogen together, this is used for the test at Castle Bravo.

Nuclear power plants work differently, in which literally radioactive material is used to generate steam, and thereby turn turbines, resulting in electricity.

These are completely different processes and different environments, the two of which are incapable of simply switching from one another.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Mechs, under almost all conditions, can't explode from a destroyed engine. Instead, once an engine is damaged or destroyed, it just ceases to produce power (essentially shuts down or I suppose...stalls out). The whole Stackpole effect sounds awesome and dramatic, but it isn't how mechs behave when engines go critical (at least officially in the lore).

There is a provision for Stakpole-esque types of engine "explosions" labeled as a rapid expansion of gasses from the breached engine that can appear as a bright flash of light and heat that could be mistaken as an explosion, but ultimately only affects the immediate area of the mech. This is EXTREMELY rare though and is more to help explain Stackpole's writing more than anything (plus allow for a house rule if people so choose to use it).

Overall, mechs with exploding engines really isn't good for gameplay or story telling. Suiciding mechs would be a rather pesky thing when a losing side is always like..."Remove the safeties and explode the mech in a nuclear fireball!" Imagine how brutal the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars would have been if that was a thing? Also, no one would want to use mechs for defense of assets if they could just explode and wipe them out (and anything within several miles of them).

Essentially, mechs that receive critical damage to the engine just shut down and become inoperable. It may not be as exciting as a brilliant explosion, but it makes more sense for story and gameplay.

If you want to check this info out for yourself, check the Sarna.Net link below concerning Fusion Engines...
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Fusion_Engine

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 02 July 2018 - 04:37 AM.

[Brenden]

Alright guys, yall have answered my question. Thank you for the new information!

[Steel Raven]

I chalk up most 'Stackpole' events to ammo explosions. Someone at my table top game group is a actual engineer who did the math when the topic came up at our table, possibility of the engine exploding exist because of the amount power but it wouldn't be the same 'going nuclear' BT Fusion engines seem almost idiot proof.

[Koniving]

Suicidal mechs do become nuclear bombs, however they can become bombs.

http://www.sarna.net...h_Self_Destruct

Basically you have your own rig of explosives around the engine and have it detonate during fusion (the issue not mentioned there is that the "Fusion" reaction that powers a Fusion reactor, fictional or real, is not a continuous process but one done on occasion in order to provide power... after all nuclear reactors whether Fusion or Fission... are really nuclear-powered STEAM engines. The nuclear reaction is used to produce steam in water which pumps turbines... which then cools back to water and another reaction is performed... Ever noticed mechs overheat and power down? Didja think that was odd? In Battletech you have to wait until you're over 50% cooled before you can power back on... there's a reason for it.)

Anyway, although the "narrators" aka the characters in Stackpole novels describe spectacular explosions as nuclear, it is important to remember that fictional characters are only capable of describing what they think, what they believe, and what they know. What they think and believe isn't necessarily fact. After all Kuritans will unequivocally believe themselves to be the good guys. Doesn't mean its true, sometimes it is but most of the time it isn't. Kuritans also believe that they're deeply rooted in Japanese culture, but in fact the only story that puts actual Draconis Combine forces on Terra, in Japan, the Japan of Battletech hated them for the warped perversions of their culture.

Also, despite how ever since Citytech, (1986) mechs have been described as 7 to 15 meters tall... and the tallest mech BT ever produced in the Clan Invasion era was 14.4 meters tall, you'll find the occasional narrator describing an Atlas as "25 meters tall", but later learn the guy has no idea what a meter is because he's always using feet and inches. Not to mention his 12.192 meter (which he actually describes simply as 40 feet) tall mech was able to reach this "25 meter tall" Atlas's head with its fist without jumping... Think about that for a second. And its not played off as a mistake on the author, but a mistake on the "narrator."

Anyway, the act of Stackpoling within the rules (from engine damage dealt by your enemies) will produce an explosion with a series of brilliant lights which affects an area 90 meters in diameter (45 meter radius, or 1 hex in any direction considering that your occupied hex is 30 meters in diameter). This actually expands to 150 meters if you have ammunition that also detonates. Your typical ammo explosion is actually larger... After all, the explosion results from the burst of steam coming from within unless deliberately rigged to explode in timing with the nuclear fusion.

Edited by Koniving, 06 July 2018 - 06:14 AM.

[Koniving]

"Mechs in BattleTech also have a curious tendency to go up in a mini nuclear explosion when their reactor core is breached by weapon fire. We're talking mushroom cloud, explosion, heat, radiation, the whole bit. This has been nicknamed "stackpoling" after BattleTech novel author Michael Stackpole, who includes at least one of these events in each novel he writes. If the reactor was actually breached, what should happen is a meltdown of the reactor (and probably some chunks of the surrounding mech) that quickly burns out because the reactor can't maintain the fusion reaction without proper containment. Reactors are generally incapable of generating an actual nuclear explosion: real-world reactor "explosions" are usually a result of the coolant flash-overheating and generating a pressure-based steam explosion that destroys the reactor building. Lingering radiation would still be a problem of course, but that is usually handwaved away in BattleTech fluff or not mentioned at all."

This says it pretty well.

[Koniving]

Actually the whole thing is a great read.

[Koniving]

The whole thing in that link is really good, and full of moments like this:

"Similar to the Davions and their love of autocannons and the Steiners and their love of everything heavy and assault, Kuritans are really, really into PPCs (Particle Projector Cannons), mainly because they're dirt poor and Lasguns are cheaper than bullets. If there is a mech that can possibly mount a PPC, the Dracs will put one on it. For instance, see the Catapult: a 65-ton long-range fire support mech intended for indirect fire using the Long Range Missle (LRM) racks in its "ears". Almost every variant of the Catapult is centered around these LRM racks with a few minor backup weapons, they are a reliable, battle-tested design that no commander in their right mind would attempt to 'fix', because isn't broken... except in the eyes of House Kurita. Once the Combine got their hands on it those ears were replaced with two PPCs for direct fire support and two machine guns for civilian massacres INFANTRY DETERRENTS"

[evilauthor]

Koniving, on 06 July 2018 - 06:12 AM, said:

Anyway, the act of Stackpoling within the rules (from engine damage dealt by your enemies) will produce an explosion with a series of brilliant lights which affects an area 90 meters in diameter (45 meter radius, or 1 hex in any direction considering that your occupied hex is 30 meters in diameter). This actually expands to 150 meters if you have ammunition that also detonates. Your typical ammo explosion is actually larger... After all, the explosion results from the burst of steam coming from within unless deliberately rigged to explode in timing with the nuclear fusion.

And don't forget that's not the FIREBALL that's 90-150 meters in radius. That's the radius mechs and other units take damage in. A real life 155mm artillery shell has a 50m kill radius, but most of the killing in that radius is done via flying shrapnel, not the concussion from the actual explosion (although that can be pretty damaging too close in to ground zero). Likewise, most of the damage from a "stackpoling" mech is likely to come from all the mech bits being thrown in all directions.

[NimoStar]

Quote

[color=#959595]you can actually equip battlemechs with fission engines (Which are absolutely terrible[/color]

But are they terrible with suiciding?

Also i can't imagine it being worse than an internal combustion engine, and these weren't ALL that bad even.

[Bombast]

NimoStar, on 09 July 2018 - 12:06 AM, said:

But are they terrible with suiciding?

Also i can't imagine it being worse than an internal combustion engine, and these weren't ALL that bad even.

I don't know of any specific rules regarding fission engines actually exploding in the TT, but the lore makes mention of it. The real issue is that they're both heavier, and more expensive, then fusion engines. They're even heavier then Compact Engines.

Edited by Bombast, 10 July 2018 - 07:52 AM.

[Provo1978]

in fact it should do more damage being rammed by a mech at full speed, than standing beside a mech whose reactor is destroyed.

[dante245]

Brenden, on 30 June 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

If a suicidal Mechwarrior retooled his fusion engine to NOT have the plasma shield that protected it collapse, or even appear, to keep the engine intact and found a way to force a meltdown of the fuel inside, could it be possible for the Mechwarrior to force their engine to have a nuclear meltdown and explode?

Yes...or at least partial yes...cause MW4 HAD the ability to suicide your mech as a last ditch effort thru engine over load/ bomb attached to the engine" forget witch"

[jtyotJOTJIPAEFVJ]

Bombast, on 10 July 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

I don't know of any specific rules regarding fission engines actually exploding in the TT, but the lore makes mention of it. The real issue is that they're both heavier, and more expensive, then fusion engines. They're even heavier then Compact Engines.

nothing official I think, but megamek has some unofficial rules that implements damage to nearby mechs for engine breaches and ammo explosions. They make larger brawls extremely chaotic since you might end up getting destroyed along with the mech you kill.