76 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

KDR is why one starts doing it.

From there either they get good at it... Or eventually they realize it isn't working.
Unless doing it for fun.

[Princeps Ibram Cain]

Nowadays i see people runing Atlases whit Gauss and LRMs, so nothing surprise me anymore.

[Sagara Sousuke 011011001]

I tried sniping for the first time last month. It was fun but I wasn't very effective. Because I've liked the idea of the Ghillie, I decided to make a poor man's version with the PHX 1-B to test things out. I loaded it with a light gauss and an ER PPC with stealth armor. In my head, the strategy was to position high enemy rear or side and open up with the PPC then rattle away with the Gauss until my heat dropped. The principle too was that by limiting the PPC I'd less likely be spotted.

After a few nights of games, I came to the conclusion that I was a detriment to my team simply because I could not layout damage - rarely over 300. I wasn't much of a distraction and even though I got many back shots, I couldn't drop anyone quickly.

[PhoenixFire55]

Sagara Sousuke 011011001, on 13 March 2019 - 01:40 PM, said:

I tried sniping for the first time last month. It was fun but I wasn't very effective. Because I've liked the idea of the Ghillie, I decided to make a poor man's version with the PHX 1-B to test things out. I loaded it with a light gauss and an ER PPC with stealth armor. In my head, the strategy was to position high enemy rear or side and open up with the PPC then rattle away with the Gauss until my heat dropped. The principle too was that by limiting the PPC I'd less likely be spotted.

After a few nights of games, I came to the conclusion that I was a detriment to my team simply because I could not layout damage - rarely over 300. I wasn't much of a distraction and even though I got many back shots, I couldn't drop anyone quickly.

Ghille, just like any mech with stealth armor really, lacks DPS. In order to use it properly you need to position yourself on the flank of the enemy or behind them, that takes time, and quite a bit, since Enforcer isn't exactly the fastest mech. However, if your match turns into a standoff, or generally is a slow-paced trading match rather than a brawl, a stealth sniper harassing enemy undetected from a flank/rear, can do a lot of damage, force the enemy out of cover or simply distract a few to create a numbers advantage for his teammates.

And that is why "sniping" should only be done with a fast light/medium/heavy mech that goes 100kph or more. Because speed allows it to get in position fast and start doing damage as quickly as possible, since it can't help the team otherwise with its low DPS. It is quite alright to have long range weapons on slow mechs. It is just NOT alright to use these slow mech with long range weapons as "snipers", trying to go around the map flanking at the whooping speed of 60kph and not sharing armor.

Ghille is fun, and was buffed quite a bit when they allowed to dissipate heat in stealth mode. But the best setup imho for it is still just one Gauss rifle for ultimate stealth (since its hard to see where Gauss shots come from compared to PPCs and lasers). DPS is horrible, but as long as you can force the enemy to look where that Gauss comes from rather than shoot your buddies you can impact matches still. Trolling smth like an LRM Supernova for several minutes and taking all that firepower away from the fight is quite priceless.

[Renzor the Red]

I mentioned earlier in this thread about how I spent my first month playing this game sniping with an ACH-Prime with 2 ERLL. Maybe it's different in Faction Warfare (haven't tried that with this mech yet, but it might be beneficial to plink away from hiding doing 20 damage, 20 damage, 20 damage over a long match with 48 enemies), but that kind of build just doesn't have enough DPS to be relevant. It's fun to sneak around with JJ's, ECM, and 2 ERLL squirreling the enemy, knocking out components, and sometimes securing kills on wounded mechs, but 2 ERLL's aren't enough. Doing this kind of handicapped my team a bit, leading to more overall losses, where if I was brawling in a heavy/whatever, I might have otherwise contributed 2-3 kills etc. I'm sure that my low win rate for my month spent sniping and going in this wrong direction is why I was stuck in Tier 5 for hundreds of matches.

Since then, I've tried modifying that idea and trying it with mechs with greater firepower. Running 4 ERLL's and an ECM on a Hellbringer was fun and did a lot more damage, alternating 2 and 2, doubling the DPS. And some people run 5-6 ERLL on Battlemasters, shooting 3 then whatever's left.

I don't do this playstyle much at all anymore though. Now, I mostly Dakka or brawl with Wub builds.

Edited by renzor51, 14 March 2019 - 02:26 PM.

[The Lost Boy]

Because they THINK they can help the team by playing a static role far from the action. Most of this game isnt about being static or about isolating your mech from the group. Theres a few standout folks that can pull off erppc or erll sniping but for the most part the firepower and armor are more usefull at mid and close ranges.

[Bishop Six]

Making hits and not getting hits feels good for fainthearted plebs.

[Acersecomic]

Hellbringer is a good sniper because it can fit enough Heat Sinks on top of ECM and 4 ERLLs. It suffers from terrible hitboxes and poor armor, so staying the back and melting with near constant torrent of hitscan lasers at 800-1000+ meters is something few can match. On top of that it does peeking very well as all the non-arm hardpoints are shoulder high with even one head energy hardpoint. Also very good covergence.
All in all, sniping is good and useful if done right and in the right mech, as it can be good harrasment, softening up and even killing with ease. It is a comfortable style of play unless the enemy really has a hard on for you.

[PhoenixFire55]

Bishop Six, on 15 March 2019 - 02:19 AM, said:

Making hits and not getting hits feels good for fainthearted plebs.

I got news for you. "Making hits and not getting hits" in return is a most basic principle of warfare ever since the dawn of humanity.

[Bishop Six]

PhoenixFire55, on 15 March 2019 - 04:18 AM, said:

I got news for you. "Making hits and not getting hits" in return is a most basic principle of warfare ever since the dawn of humanity.

Thanks for the news, i didnt know.

[Acersecomic]

Bishop Six, on 15 March 2019 - 05:07 AM, said:

Thanks for the news, i didnt know.

Clearly you didn't.

[justcallme A S H]

Acersecomic, on 15 March 2019 - 03:14 AM, said:

it suffers from terrible hitboxes\

[B0oN]

Good thing none of you guys were playing in earlier days … all dat poptarting and 2erppcgausses to unsuspecting (and even to suspecting^^) people … it would've made a big part of you guys sick, the rest would be like :"where do I sign ?"

Ps.: My BJ3 just told me to tell you guys that … (turns back to BJ3) "uhhhm, no, I´m not gonna tell these poor people your goddamned insane doggerel about h..." (angry yelling starts fading in the distance ) .

[PhoenixFire55]

B0oN, on 15 March 2019 - 08:11 AM, said:

Good thing none of you guys were playing in earlier days … all dat poptarting and 2erppcgausses to unsuspecting (and even to suspecting^^) people … it would've made a big part of you guys sick, the rest would be like :"where do I sign ?"

Ps.: My BJ3 just told me to tell you guys that … (turns back to BJ3) "uhhhm, no, I´m not gonna tell these poor people your goddamned insane doggerel about h..." (angry yelling starts fading in the distance ) .

Well, since I obviously WAS playing in earlier days I'll tell you this ... People who whined the most about "poptarting" were also people standing still in the same spot for 5 mins lobbing LRMs into dirt. Pushing a bunch of poptarts with a bunch of brawlers was never a problem as long half of your team weren't useless cowards unaware of where their W button is. Surely you were most likely to lose a mech on approach, but being just one down or even two down wasn't an issue, since sustained DPS on poptarts was twice or even thrice less than on any decent brawler mech.

Poptarting was never a problem. It was a playstyle, easily counterable by other playstyle, and only dominant due to the cowardly nature of solo queue. But of course, instead of finding their balls and W buttons all the 'Imma gonna hide behind ma team lurm cruisers' simply whined endlessly thus forcing PGI to nerf a multitude of things to the point of being unusable. Spend 8 tons on your assault mech in order to be able to hover 10cm above the ground for 2 seconds anyone?

[Pain G0D]

Well in my 3 plus years of playing MWO , I can say that my assault brawler builds have the lowest match scores and damage when compared to my lurm boat and sniper assault mechs.
Probably because they live longer . Everyone naturally shoots the biggest mech on the battle field and brawlers are the first ones they encounter .

Once in a blue moon I can catch the Reds with their pants down in my brawler and bring home that 1000 damage

[Void Angel]

I have a slightly different take. It's easy to mistake conclusions people may have come to for the reasons behind their behavior. Sometimes (hopefully most times,) what people think about their strategies is also the reason they use those strategies - but not always by any means. And a lot of gamers of my experience have never really understood the truth that you get more out of a game when you put more in. I digress.

Anyway, in my view the core reason people will hang back with their long-range guns, refusing to move with the team, is deeper than the rationalizations they've come up with to explain their sub-optimal tactics - that reason is operant conditioning. People learn by comparing their actions with the results, often without really considering it. If an action is rewarded, you'll tend to prefer that action; if it's punished, it goes farther down the list of Things to Do Today. You can use this process to train the mind to associate certain stimuli with something else - like Pavolov's famous dogs and bell. And as conditioning of this type has been studied, researchers also find that rewards and punishments (good and bad results) are less effective at modifying behavior if they are delayed.

Now with MWO, your rewards are high match score and damage stats, scoring hits, seeing component destruction, and getting kills; the punishments are low game stats, taking hits, losing components, and getting slagged yourself. Game stats are of course delayed for both brawling and long-ranged builds - but all other rewards are delayed for brawlers, while punishments are instant. Now consider a new player who is trying to learn the game: whatever build he's using, he is going to make mistakes in positioning. When he makes those mistakes in a long-range 'mech, he can usually recover by backing into cover before he takes critical damage. But when he screws up trying to close with his AC/20? He's often going to take significant - if not crippling - damage before he can get to safety.

Add in the lower match stats that Pain is talking about for brawlers (and the prevalence of LRMs historically in lower PSR tiers,) it's not surprising that many players who don't study the game very well gravitate toward long-range weapons and associate leaving cover with significant hazard. It looks like stupidity and pants-wetting cowardice - but really they've just been conditioned that way. Ding-ding!

PS: Long-range combat is just as legitimate a playing style as brawling - but like brawling, it needs to be done right. If you're hanging out in the back with a couple of ERPPCs, you are going to need to position yourself to maximize your damage with those slow, low-DPS weapons. Ideally, you'll focus your damage on the same enemy component to minimize time to kill, but constant harassment Works Too. Just don't shackle yourself into one spot and hope the flow of battle happens to conform to your preference.

[PhoenixFire55]

Void Angel, on 16 March 2019 - 11:32 AM, said:

It looks like stupidity and pants-wetting cowardice - but really they've just been conditioned that way. Ding-ding!

If it looks like sh*t, smells like sh*t, tastles like sh*t and feels like sh*t, then it is for all intents and purposes - sh*t.

[Bishop Six]

Acersecomic, on 15 March 2019 - 05:42 AM, said:

Clearly you didn't.

Hey Superprofi.

Your Ace of Spades is faked like by everyone else. You seems to really love your epeen and i bet you are one of those only long range poptart dudes and i bet you use your teammates as meatshields for your own stats. Congrats, there are also news for you: You are funny.

Sincerely
your Bishop

[B0oN]

PhoenixFire55, on 15 March 2019 - 08:58 AM, said:

Well, since I obviously WAS playing in earlier days I'll tell you this ... People who whined the most about "poptarting" were also people standing still in the same spot for 5 mins lobbing LRMs into dirt. Pushing a bunch of poptarts with a bunch of brawlers was never a problem as long half of your team weren't useless cowards unaware of where their W button is. Surely you were most likely to lose a mech on approach, but being just one down or even two down wasn't an issue, since sustained DPS on poptarts was twice or even thrice less than on any decent brawler mech.

Poptarting was never a problem. It was a playstyle, easily counterable by other playstyle, and only dominant due to the cowardly nature of solo queue. But of course, instead of finding their balls and W buttons all the 'Imma gonna hide behind ma team lurm cruisers' simply whined endlessly thus forcing PGI to nerf a multitude of things to the point of being unusable. Spend 8 tons on your assault mech in order to be able to hover 10cm above the ground for 2 seconds anyone?

That´s my man, PhoenixFire55, didn't expect less from you
Also : A nearly perfect write-up of how "efficient/impressive" poptarting really was .

[Bishop Six]

Acersecomic, on 18 March 2019 - 08:01 AM, said:

Here's advice for you. Before opening your mouth you should factcheck, it will at least make you appear smarter than you are.
Go on, go check my stats. Try to oil your cogs and think for a moment and see what kind of ranges I fight in and what my prefered combat playstyle is.
I earn my keep. I am not here to entertain your sense of threatened "epeen" since that is what you think about and what drives your jealous little tirade.

Sincerely, not your Common Sense.

That does not invalidate sniping however, just your sense of honor apparently.
On your next reply to me I am simply blocking you, just letting you know. I'd prefer you read this and then have you silent

Dont tell me what to do and please block me Then i dont have to laugh about your replies anymore