29 replies to this topic

[adamts01]

Because this is a perfect opportunity to quick some under-performing mechs.

[Christof Romulus]

So the reason that some mechs end up in some tiers is because the sheer amount of quirks needed to fix them would be beyond staggering.

Yen Lo Wang for example, there are so few loadouts available due to hardpoint placement that it's Tier 7. Beyond that, even then it's easily crippled entirely.

In reality an ac 20 and 2 medium pulse lasers is the largest this mech can use, the only way to go larger would be a UAC 20 perhaps? But even then it's the same mech - once the arm is lost it's down to 2 medium pulse lasers and bad hitboxes.

The same goes for the Uziel that PGI gave away. The Missile hardpoint in the CT, relatively low tonnage, and few energy hardpoints give it basically only one loadout.

From all of that I definitely think the Solars Tiers are pretty accurate.

[Anastasius Foht]

adamts01, on 05 July 2018 - 05:17 AM, said:

Because this is a perfect opportunity to quick some under-performing mechs.

Whole idea about Solaris tiers is buy new mechs and bays, some tiers built to favor MC mechs "if you know what i mean".

[Nightbird]

Very accurate... says everyone.

[adamts01]

Christof Romulus, on 05 July 2018 - 08:07 AM, said:

So the reason that some mechs end up in some tiers is because the sheer amount of quirks needed to fix them would be beyond staggering.

Yen Lo Wang for example, there are so few loadouts available due to hardpoint placement that it's Tier 7. Beyond that, even then it's easily crippled entirely.

Not really. I was playing around with an LBX10 & 3xSRM4 Bushwhacker today and thought that it could work great in that worthless Loyalty Centurion of mine. But nope, that mech doesn't have close to the durability of the Bushwhacker. Really, just copy and past the Bushwhacker's durability on top of of what the Centurion already has and it would be great. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to help many of these mechs. Like the original Jenner CT we all knew that needed a buff for years. Everyone knows exactly what's wrong with these mechs.

Anyway, a controlled and competitive environment exactly like Solaris is exactly the place to rank what needs help and what doesn't. There's the argument that some mechs are support and some aren't, but honestly, this game is a simple 12v12 deathmatch with not so much room for support nonsense.

[Eisenhorne]

adamts01, on 05 July 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:

Not really. I was playing around with an LBX10 & 3xSRM4 Bushwhacker today and thought that it could work great in that worthless Loyalty Centurion of mine. But nope, that mech doesn't have close to the durability of the Bushwhacker. Really, just copy and past the Bushwhacker's durability on top of of what the Centurion already has and it would be great.

It would be a step in the right direction, but it still wouldn't be as good as the bushwacker because it has such poor hitboxes. Part of what makes the BSW so good is it's shape. the CN9 would need more than just armor quirks to make it viable, unless they gave it IV4 level armor quirks.

[adamts01]

Eisenhorne, on 05 July 2018 - 11:18 AM, said:

It would be a step in the right direction, but it still wouldn't be as good as the bushwacker because it has such poor hitboxes. Part of what makes the BSW so good is it's shape. the CN9 would need more than just armor quirks to make it viable, unless they gave it IV4 level armor quirks.

Well there you go. My point is that Solaris is a perfect opportunity to start playing with quirks. Just make small changes every patch and watch to see how the meta shifts. It's about as controlled an environment as this game will ever have. I see it as a perfect opportunity to get some unbiased balance work done.

[Nightbird]

Solaris isn't an unbiased measuring stick. Some mechs aren't suitable for 1vs1 and do fine in QP, FP.

[Xetelian]

adamts01, on 05 July 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:

Not really. I was playing around with an LBX10 & 3xSRM4 Bushwhacker today and thought that it could work great in that worthless Loyalty Centurion of mine. But nope, that mech doesn't have close to the durability of the Bushwhacker. Really, just copy and past the Bushwhacker's durability on top of of what the Centurion already has and it would be great. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to help many of these mechs. Like the original Jenner CT we all knew that needed a buff for years. Everyone knows exactly what's wrong with these mechs.

Anyway, a controlled and competitive environment exactly like Solaris is exactly the place to rank what needs help and what doesn't. There's the argument that some mechs are support and some aren't, but honestly, this game is a simple 12v12 deathmatch with not so much room for support nonsense.

You have to be joking right? You think 1v1 is how we should balance 12 v 12?
Just consider for example that 1v1 favors brawling and slow mechs while 12 v 12 favors midrange and quicker speeds.

Lots of mechs work in 1v1 that don't have much hope of doing anything in 12 v 12.

Also since its not all against all and there is a tier system for groups of mechs it would be impossible to judge whether or not something is good for quick play based on it performing well in its tier. A top tier tier 7 mech should not get less quirks because it is performing well in Tier 7 against worse mechs.

Some weapons don't even work in 1v1, like LRMs. We'd have to buff LRMs astronomically to make them even remotely useful in Solaris and by the time they got useful they'd be the only thing people would be taking in QP.

You don't see a lot of laser vomit in 1v1, if we went by that then we'd have to assume all laser vomit is weak and needs buffs.

[adamts01]

Xetelian, on 05 July 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

You have to be joking right? You think 1v1 is how we should balance 12 v 12?
Just consider for example that 1v1 favors brawling and slow mechs while 12 v 12 favors midrange and quicker speeds.

You don't see a lot of laser vomit in 1v1, if we went by that then we'd have to assume all laser vomit is weak and needs buffs.

Fine then. I did start with the sincere question if tiers were accurate or not. And if ranged mechs aren't represented well in Solaris then we could at least use it to balance brawlers, like with my Centurion vs Bushwhacker example. I still think the mode could be an excellent way to start dialing in certain mechs.

[mogs01gt]

Xetelian, on 05 July 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

You have to be joking right? You think 1v1 is how we should balance 12 v 12?
Just consider for example that 1v1 favors brawling and slow mechs while 12 v 12 favors midrange and quicker speeds.
Lots of mechs work in 1v1 that don't have much hope of doing anything in 12 v 12.
Also since its not all against all and there is a tier system for groups of mechs it would be impossible to judge whether or not something is good for quick play based on it performing well in its tier. A top tier tier 7 mech should not get less quirks because it is performing well in Tier 7 against worse mechs.
Some weapons don't even work in 1v1, like LRMs. We'd have to buff LRMs astronomically to make them even remotely useful in Solaris and by the time they got useful they'd be the only thing people would be taking in QP.
You don't see a lot of laser vomit in 1v1, if we went by that then we'd have to assume all laser vomit is weak and needs buffs.

1v1 should be the default way to balance mechs especially since our game modes are all death match. Once you establish a base and can accurately buff and or nerf from there. The issue we've discovered over the years of playing MWO is that there is no standard for balancing.

adamts01, on 05 July 2018 - 09:09 PM, said:

Fine then. I did start with the sincere question if tiers were accurate or not. And if ranged mechs aren't represented well in Solaris then we could at least use it to balance brawlers, like with my Centurion vs Bushwhacker example. I still think the mode could be an excellent way to start dialing in certain mechs.

He is referring to game mechanic manipulation. It comes down to should the game be balanced by the actual mechs or the design mechanics that PGI implemented?

Example: Some FPS games, the player's in-game toon shoots from the head but PGI made the proper decision to use hardpoint location determine where shots come from. That decision allows deficiencies
in mech design to become quickly apparent when playing mechs that shoot the ground.

Edited by mogs01gt, 06 July 2018 - 05:53 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Christof Romulus, on 05 July 2018 - 08:07 AM, said:

So the reason that some mechs end up in some tiers is because the sheer amount of quirks needed to fix them would be beyond staggering.

Yen Lo Wang for example, there are so few loadouts available due to hardpoint placement that it's Tier 7. Beyond that, even then it's easily crippled entirely.

In reality an ac 20 and 2 medium pulse lasers is the largest this mech can use, the only way to go larger would be a UAC 20 perhaps? But even then it's the same mech - once the arm is lost it's down to 2 medium pulse lasers and bad hitboxes.

The same goes for the Uziel that PGI gave away. The Missile hardpoint in the CT, relatively low tonnage, and few energy hardpoints give it basically only one loadout.

From all of that I definitely think the Solars Tiers are pretty accurate.

That Uziel is actually a good 'Mech, its twist range is huge and it can pack two LB-10-Xs. It's not everyone's cup of tea but it does well. Unfortunately there are Shadowhawks in that division as well, which can make short work of it, but in capable hands it's a capable 'Mech.

[KodiakGW]

All I can tell you is to take what you want and deal with it, win or lose, because it isn’t going to change. There is definite meta in ever division, but that meta can be countered by specific mechs/builds. But, those specific mech/builds are countered by almost everything else in that division.

Take for instance my Nova in Div 2. Get a PIR against me, and the PIR is toast. Take a PIR against a KGC or ANH, and if you are decent enough they are toast. Take my Nova against either of those, and you know the outcome. I win against them if the pilot is a horrible shot and took low leg armor.

Same thing with my DAO in Div 5. Holds it’s own against most everything. But, been running into mostly SRM boat Kintaros lately. My zero structure quirked mech vs their massively quirked armor leads to quick losses. Now maybe if it had the LK structure quirks, which is in the same division. No idea why not, especially since it is part of the Solaris themed pack.

So much potential. But they had to listen to the guy who says “git gud or accept your place as fodder for better pilots” in defense of divisions. Guess that is why it is so populated and why we kept so many returning players. Oh, wait....

[Ilfi]

I wouldn't take S7 divisions as Gospel, but the Tier 1 and Tier 2 Mechs generally have good reasons to be there, even if certain choices (like pitting a Huntsman against Annihilators) make no sense. It's not particularly useful for deciding on what Quick Play Mechs to use, outside of avoiding Tier 5, 6 and 7.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Solaris should never be a factor in balancing any mech. To be honest they could in theory quirk mechs and change them JUST for Solaris to make them more viable and I would be fine for that. Solaris should in no way impact regular play and how mechs operate on the regular battlefields. Same with weapons.

[Xetelian]

mogs01gt, on 06 July 2018 - 05:45 AM, said:

1v1 should be the default way to balance mechs especially since our game modes are all death match. Once you establish a base and can accurately buff and or nerf from there. The issue we've discovered over the years of playing MWO is that there is no standard for balancing.

That is like saying League of Legends or DoTA should be balanced on 1 v 1s or against bots.

Each mech has a thousand ways to be good or bad:
It could have bad twisting or great twisting
It could have bad hardpoint locations that screw up convergence or great ones
It could have bad hardpoint types like 2 B 2 E 2 M on a 50 ton mech or great loadouts like 2 B and 6 E on a 90 ton mech
It could have armor quirks or structure quirks
It could have great hit boxes and spread damage easily or bad ones that are like the HBR CT when it came out.
It could have a great speed to power ratio and pack a solid viable loadout and maintain decent speed or it could be an over engined clan Omni that can't pack much weaponry but moves stupid fast.


1v1 as I mentioned before makes certain things more viable and other things less viable. Brawling with 4xSRM6a can be pretty good in 1v1 and LBX60 can be good in 1v1 but in 12 v 12 it is a lot harder to get into range without taking significant damage. Midrange laser vomit isn't good in 1v1 but it excels in 12 v 12 because you can use your teammates as shields and you don't have to worry as much about the enemy pushing on you while you're hot because you have 11 other people in a firing line.


A lot of things should be taken into account when balancing 80+ mech types and about 5+ variants each.

The ANH is amazing at 1v1 because the maps are small, the fighting is closer and the speed isn't a problem. An ANH in 12 v 12 needs armor quirks to do its damage because there is more than 1 person firing on it at a time and it can't escape.


If we balanced by 1v1 all the 100 ton mechs would lose their quirks and all the laser vomit mechs would get tons of quirks.

[adamts01]

Ilfi, on 06 July 2018 - 04:47 PM, said:

I wouldn't take S7 divisions as Gospel, but the Tier 1 and Tier 2 Mechs generally have good reasons to be there, even if certain choices (like pitting a Huntsman against Annihilators) make no sense. It's not particularly useful for deciding on what Quick Play Mechs to use, outside of avoiding Tier 5, 6 and 7.

OK, so buff tiers 5,6,& 7. Maybe that's a fair enough line to draw.

Mechwarrior1441491, on 06 July 2018 - 05:43 PM, said:

Solaris should never be a factor in balancing any mech. To be honest they could in theory quirk mechs and change them JUST for Solaris to make them more viable and I would be fine for that. Solaris should in no way impact regular play and how mechs operate on the regular battlefields. Same with weapons.

Look at it this way. We don't say that PGI balances with a dart board for no reason. At least with Solaris, players directly take part in the process and we'd see some tangible data that can't really be argued with because it's from such a competitive setting, ideally between somewhat equally skilled players.

I do agree with the argument that ranged mechs don't fit Solaris meta, so that absolutely does have to be considered, especially with LRMs I imagine. What If we introduced a ranged map for Solaris? Nothing will account for LRMs missing a spotter, but this might help balance snipers and mid-range alpha boats.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

They could fit in Solaris if Solaris had scenarios which somehow promoted ranged conflict over face hugging your opponent.

[justcallme A S H]

adamts01, on 05 July 2018 - 09:09 PM, said:

Fine then. I did start with the sincere question if tiers were accurate or not. And if ranged mechs aren't represented well in Solaris then we could at least use it to balance brawlers, like with my Centurion vs Bushwhacker example. I still think the mode could be an excellent way to start dialing in certain mechs.

But they are balanced, for the most part. The thing is they play totally differenently, role is different and needs to stay that way. Otherwise the game becomes stale/boring - AKA, current PTS. The wet-noodling of everything just makes things worse. Some mechs to be strong at some, weak others and so on.


Either way Solaris Tiers are, overall, not amazing. Some mechs are just in the total and utter wrong spots.

And no Solaris should never be the balancing mechanism for 12v12 or overall gameplay. To suggest so shows a distinct lack of understanding of what balance is about.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 06 July 2018 - 06:52 PM.

[Tesunie]

Eisenhorne, on 05 July 2018 - 11:18 AM, said:

It would be a step in the right direction, but it still wouldn't be as good as the bushwacker because it has such poor hitboxes. Part of what makes the BSW so good is it's shape. the CN9 would need more than just armor quirks to make it viable, unless they gave it IV4 level armor quirks.

Just was drifting on the forums and noticed your post here.

About the best the Centurion could see would be if, maybe, it matched it's original art a bit more?


Though, I know people would complain because they like how the MW:O Centurion looks. I think it looks good, but I don't think it's a Centurion...


Anyway, if it followed original artwork closer, the hit boxes probably would be better...