126 replies to this topic

[Shadowomega1]

Hydrocarbon, on 06 July 2018 - 11:26 PM, said:

Does anyone know where this "majority of players that commented" who preferred these changes that PGI is talking about?

They don't seem to be posting much on the forum, like, you know, you'd expect if they were the majority of players...

VonBruinwald, on 06 July 2018 - 11:39 PM, said:

I think you're confusing the majority with the vocal minority.

There is a vocal minority, a very tiny minority.

While I would like some change on huge alpha's, I don't like the way they want to fix it. I see the best way to fix the issue is to fix the massive amount of heat the mechs can get via DHS and skill tree. IE my Super Nova has can hold around 100 points of heat, that is more than three times what any mech should have.

While this doesn't fix on every massive alpha (2HG builds) it will keep those massive alpha damage regulated to a shorter range.

Edited by Shadowomega1, 07 July 2018 - 06:33 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Smalls needed a tiny buff, not nerf.

CERMLs need a tiny heat reduction. At least same heat as damage. Longer burn differentiates clan from IS weapons. Also stay about 6 damage.

Otherwise it sounds like it's worth a shot.

Edited by MischiefSC, 07 July 2018 - 06:50 AM.

[Steel Claws]

The Lighthouse, on 07 July 2018 - 12:25 AM, said:

I mean, look at two builds. This problematic Deathstrike. This is the exact same build I use:

DEATHSTRIKE



Now, with this PTS change, pretty much everyone figured out this build.


DEATHSTRIKE

With PTS changes, this build will do 15.75 + 30 + 30 = 75.75 Damage. Only missing 4.25, some speed and massive increase of effective range thanks to additional CERLL.

Like, these changes hardly affect those 3 troublesome mechs, and massively affect rest of Clan mechs.

See the problem here is that PGI thinks they can solve Meta builds - despite having years of evidence to the contrary. Sure you can nerf some mechs/weapons into oblivion (aka Highlanders and Victors erppc and gauss) but in the end the players just find a new meta. Players gravitate to what works at that moment. This will never stop happening. Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the outcome to change. At some point they just need to let us have our fun and find something far more value added to do.

[Quxudica]

The Mayor of Smuttington, on 06 July 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

From 1.1 DPH to 0.92 DPH for cERMLs (unless I mucked up simple division)

Really?

Come on now why are you trying to turn Clantech into IS Tech? Look I know tabletop balance is hilariously bad but a tech differential in this game could be so delicious

Instead we're doing what- reducing the amount of viable Clan energy builds even further? Why?

Bumping the Ghost Heat threshold for cLPLs and cERLLs is a good change, so thank you for that. Been a long time coming. Now if you could be so gracious as to reduce their burn times by a couple of days or so that would be perfect

The only good change that could ever come to ghost heat is the complete removal of ghost heat and a complete ground up redesign of the heat system itself.

[Shadowomega1]

Quxudica, on 07 July 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

The only good change that could ever come to ghost heat is the complete removal of ghost heat and a complete ground up redesign of the heat system itself.

Something I keep putting forward yet getting ignored or insulted, instead of attempts to improve or build on it.

[Bishop Six]

Are there IS-Mech-Packs coming out soon?

[Weeny Machine]

Clan light mechs and mediums get hit hard by the laser change. Most are more fragile and/or less agile than their IS counterparts for more firepower - but the difference will hardly exist after the change.

[Vesper11]

cERSL:
DPS: 1.09 DPH: 1.43 - old and somewhat bad
DPS: 1.02 DPH: 1.38 - new and even worse
compare to
ERSL:
DPS: 0.93 DPH: 1.48
SL:
DPS: 1.08 DPH: 2.95 -50m really, why do ERSLs even exist, oh right, it's to make cERSL nerfs look "balanced"
cSPL:
DPS: 1.60 DPH: 1.95 -50m +0.5t (now PGI will nerf it too)
cERML:
DPS: 1.22 DPH: 1.11
DPS: 1.00 DPH: 0.92
ERML:
DPS: 1.02 DPH: 1.11 -40m yes, clan lasers are not only hotter and have longer burn but now also weaker!
cERLL:
DPS: 2.16 DPH: 1.10
DPS: 1.96 DPH: 1.00
ERLL:
DPS: 2.00 DPH: 1.13 -65m +1t never was a fan of (c)ERLLs
cMPL:
DPS: 1.79 DPH: 1.47
DPS: 1.60 DPH: 1.39
MPL:
DPS: 1.76 DPH: 1.58 -110m and this is the reason for cMPL nerf, because MPL sucks so much they brought cMPL down to its level.
ERML:
DPS: 1.02 DPH: 1.11 +30m -1t
cLPL:
DPS: 2.80 DPH: 1.20
DPS: 2.55 DPH: 1.09
LPL:
DPS: 2.72 DPH: 1.38 -235m +1t LPL sux
LL:
DPS: 2.14 DPH: 1.29 -150m -1t 450m is good enough tho and a bit better DPS per ton but still very bad DPS per ton for laser
ERLL:
DPS: 2.00 DPH: 1.13 +75m -1t thus slightly lower DPS per ton
cHML:
DPS: 1.44 DPH: 1.25
DPS: 1.16 DPH: 1.14 - now even more useless
ML:
DPS: 1.14 DPH: 1.47
cHSL:
DPS: 1.25 DPH: 1.73 -155m, yep now larger lasers are also weaker, hotter and longer burn than already bad smaller lasers
cHLL:
DPS: 2.47 DPH: 1.13
DPS: 2.20 DPH: 1.00
LL:
DPS: 2.14 DPH: 1.29 +1t

First off all I want to say f-ank you PGI for blanket nerfs! Not like already unpopular (unpopular = no one cares, right?) mediums and lights who use lasers a lot due to their weight limits will suffer because freaking assaults and heavies needed a nerf and ignore the fact that moving from dual cHLL S-CAT harasser to King Crabby (on discount) moved my avg match score by like 30 points or more and allowed me to affect match outcome more thus S-CAT had to be nerfed because gotta balance the game around stupid assaults!

It's freaking stupid, instead of buffing (making cooler) non-small IS lasers as IS doesn't have crits for DHS when it has weight, and dealing with medium+large laser boating combo on heavier mechs that is still there PGI had to go with the most simple and stupid way possible and blanket nerfed almost all the clan lasers to make sure people would play lighter mechs even less.

Edited by Vesper11, 08 July 2018 - 05:06 AM.

[Mystere]

The Mayor of Smuttington, on 06 July 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

From 1.1 DPH to 0.92 DPH for cERMLs (unless I mucked up simple division)

Really?

Come on now why are you trying to turn Clantech into IS Tech?

LordNothing, on 06 July 2018 - 08:42 PM, said:

i worry they are just going to make is weapons and clan weapons indistinguishable from eachother, and thats just not fun.

The generic robbit-shooter eSports folks demand 1:1 Clan-IS balance under threat of a mass exodus, boycott, and refunds. This is just a step in that direction.

LordNothing, on 06 July 2018 - 08:42 PM, said:

i think pgi's problem is they just slapped together their asymetrical balance concept and didnt really have a solid plan for doing so.

Their plan was 12 vs. 12 eSports all along.

Xetelian, on 06 July 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

Bottom line is we need a new balance team to play other games.

See you in-game in another month ... maybe.

Edited by Mystere, 08 July 2018 - 05:58 AM.

[Mystere]

justcallme A S H, on 06 July 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

We've seen from past PTS's now to know that, even if the feedback is in majority, against what is being proposed...

We will end up with them anyway.

Take Skill Maze as the key/prime example. So much feedback was given, plenty of is amazing and would've improve the Skill Tree deployment and made it something actually decent, instead we basically got exactly what was on the PTS and the Skill Maze hasn't seen any real improvements in 13 months now when it was going to be regularly monitored/updated as needed

I just ignore the skill maze.

[Mystere]

The Lighthouse, on 07 July 2018 - 02:26 AM, said:

...this is off-topic, but rise of instant communications such as twitter, reddit, and its predecessor, Digg, and others didn't do humanity good effects.

You're right about that.

In a country which I will not name, people are getting murdered by angry mobs based on mere rumors.

[Judah Malganis]

One of the things I don't like is the lack of internal consistency. Based on Vesper's notes, IS ER Smalls do less DPS and have more DPH than clan ones, but IS ER mediums have both higher DPS and DPH. I'm sure other lasers have flip-flopping values well. If you're going to standardize tech bases, actually standardize them. +/- shouldn't change based on the individual laser.

If anything, clan lasers should have alpha and range while their IS counterparts edge them off in DPS and DPH across the board. (based on heat, duration and dc).

Edited by Judah Malganis, 08 July 2018 - 06:44 AM.

[Ikedaddy]

The Lighthouse, on 07 July 2018 - 01:01 AM, said:

Current cLPL does 12, after the nerf it will do 11.

Yes, IS LPL kind of sucks but at least it still has godlike 0.67 burn time, which is pretty much pinpoint damage.



That said, I looked into nerfed cERML vs isERML.


Clan:
5.25 damage
5.7 heat
4 seconds CD
same 1.25 sec burn duration!
+40m range

IS:
5 damage.
4.5 heat
4 seconds CD
0.9 sec burn duration.


...am I seeing this right, for just 0.25 damage and +40m optimal range, Clan ERML is inferior to IS ERML, in every other single ways.


hmmmm....

So clan ER lasers now have more heat then damage only weapon in the game like that and have a longer burntime the is er laser as well for a tiny bit of extra range and that's balanced LMFAO Pgi pulling a Tropic thunder on that call seriously 5.25 damage 5.7 heat what the heck are they thinking and how is that balanced a far more balanced call would have been to make lasers not fire well people are charging and holding charges on guasse since the only real problem with the laser alpha is the use of guase along with it looking at you deathstrike that would also address the IS dual heavy guase with laser that can core all lights in the game one shot and the vast majority of mediums Because basic logic says if clan laser alpha is foolish hot and a person has limited ability to do it over and over and if a player is on the ball or a team is on a ball after that high damage alpha push into them or more important when they start firing start twisting DO NOT TRADE well they are firing wait for them to finish or close to finish then fireSo the real problem is player skill level and the few that pack the foolishly high laser vomit backed with dual guasse address firing guasse at same time as lasers and apply it to both sides problem solved

[Remover of Obstacles]

More heat than damage doesn't look good. Especially without the corresponding duration decreases that were in the "community" spreadsheet.

Chris, how is your resume looking? Might want to freshen it up a bit.

Maybe take "good at making small incremental changes" out of your strengths category. Generally people think about balance changes of functioning game to be in the range of 5%.
Not 20%+.

1. Less damage total. Ok, it is a nerf, but maybe it is justified. Let's see on the PTS.
2. Less damage with the same duration = even less damage when it matters. Double nerf and a waste of time and resources. Thank god this didn't go straight to live servers.

Edited by Remover of Obstacles, 08 July 2018 - 12:55 PM.

[Nightbird]

Tears because more heat than damage, poor clams never had to use IS ERPPC I guess

[SFC174]

Nightbird, on 08 July 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

Tears because more heat than damage, poor clams never had to use IS ERPPC I guess

Neither did the IS. You sure it still exists?

[lazorbeamz]

To be fair clan small lasers are a part of clan laser vomit meta. 5 damage per 0.5 tons is 10 damage per ton. It is unparallelled. I think only the heavy medium does the same.

Im ok with the changes but the heavy medium laser seems to be hit rather badly. Maybe its still good for those damage per ton numbers on mechs like the linebacker.

In the end im happy. The game is going to shift towards brawling more and it is the best thing at this point of time.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 08 July 2018 - 01:38 PM.

[Luminis]

lazorbeamz, on 08 July 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:

The game is going to shift towards brawling more and it is the best thing at this point of time.

How so?

The cSPL is in a terrible place, the cERSL was barely seeing play and still got nerfed and the cMPL also took a hit, despite being niche at best. The only changes that are actually positively affecting weapons are the GH changes to the cLPL and cERLL, and those are most certainly not brawling weapons.

Way I see it, we'll be seeing a lot more long range combat from Clan Mechs. Why bother fighting at 350 meters with cMPLs and you can fight at 800+ for the low cost of six points of damage?

[Johnathan Tanner]

STOP THE NERFS! STOP THE MADNESS!

[Vesper11]

lazorbeamz, on 08 July 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:

To be fair clan small lasers are a part of clan laser vomit meta. 5 damage per 0.5 tons is 10 damage per ton. It is unparallelled. I think only the heavy medium does the same.

Im ok with the changes but the heavy medium laser seems to be hit rather badly. Maybe its still good for those damage per ton numbers on mechs like the linebacker.

In the end im happy. The game is going to shift towards brawling more and it is the best thing at this point of time.

At the range you use small lasers you'll worry more about DPS, DPH and burn time than alpha, for the same reason you won't be using small or medium heavy lasers as they are inferior to small pulses while still having no range.
Nerfing lasers will not help ded brawling, it's ded because it's nonviable, making laser vomit meta nonviable too will just make people switch to other options thus reducing diversity even more - seen many lights and meds around lately? There will be even less.