91 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Tossing aside threads like https://mwomercs.com...-server-chance/
where I argue for larger cooldown and duration changes to balance lore damage/heat values, I think 5.25 damage for C-ERML is an improvement balance-wise. The damage/tick should go up as the extra range and damage are adequately paid for by worse heat.

6/6.25 damage would be fine as well if DPS/ton and damage/tick are both made 20% less than IS ERML to pay for the alpha damage.

Today 6 C-ERML is just plain better than 6 ERML, so as weapon balance is improved (even if faction flavors are lost in the process), IS durability quirks will need to reduce over time as it is today's counterbalance to clan weapon superiority.

Edited by Nightbird, 13 July 2018 - 10:40 PM.

[ArcRoyale]

If we're going to keep damage at 5.25, we need other ways to balance it. Do something like what's being done with the heavies and up the Ghost Heat threshold. Right now, the weapon barely deals more damage than an IS Med, which doesn't do well with the heat and cooldown.

[Orville Righteous]

I played around on the PTS last night and I expected to not use Clan ER MLs anymore because of the poor heat/dam ratio. However, I found them still so useful, I had to use them. Their range and weight just made them fit in well in so many of my builds. I really like the 3 LPL + ER ML combo that's now available as well.

[Krighton0157]

Another change for them to make to keep the 5.25 damage is to drop the duration to a 1 from the 1.25 to accommodate for the huge drop in damage that was the reason for the excessive duration of said weapons. If the damage is dropped to a mere 5% more then the duration should be around the same.

[VorpalMechBunny]

Orville Righteous, on 14 July 2018 - 05:25 AM, said:

I played around on the PTS last night and I expected to not use Clan ER MLs anymore because of the poor heat/dam ratio. However, I found them still so useful, I had to use them. Their range and weight just made them fit in well in so many of my builds. I really like the 3 LPL + ER ML combo that's now available as well.

Yeah they still have a place for sure. There is a balancing act here and maybe 5.25 is going too low, but some of the complaints over this don't quite make sense. IS medium lasers kind of suck and aside from a few boat builds they often feel like filler, backup, etc. rounding off a build or potentially just being dropped for ammo/etc.
I'm fine with clan feeling that pain too, especially when their lights can use an ER small that is almost as good as IS medium for half the tonnage if closer range is OK. If the goal is to keep a longer range then time to pay the piper for those ERML that have been better for so long.


That said, what the exact right balance is is highly debatable. The wider the damage/range gap is the harder it is to balance one faction's mechs vs the others, but if it's too little then you lose variety and also need to curtail some of the tradeoff stats. 5.25 seems like it might be getting so close to IS dmg values that it's impacting the "variety" part a bit too much.

[lazorbeamz]

6 damage is way too high still.

5.25 is just fine. Speaking about its heat well the clans spam double heat sinks so they can live with that heat and cope no worse then IS er med laser boats especially given how clan XL engines are lighter then IS light engines. I think that 24+ DHS clan laser boats make CERML colder then IS ERML on sphere mechs. Maybe on the light mechs when you cant spam DHS CERML are hotter. I think that they hit the mark with this change. either laser is colder depending on mech weight class. And clan laser is always more damaging and has more range. In return it always keeps its long duration.

The only question is if the old duration is fine with CERML.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 14 July 2018 - 09:55 AM.

[Nightbird]

Duration should be reduced if staying at 5.25, if 6 damage is kept (20% more damage), someone needs to give like 20% less DPS than IS ERML. Otherwise it'll be a straight upgrade like it is today.

[Orville Righteous]

One thing I noticed with the changes on PTS, my Clan alphas are pretty close to the alphas on my IS mechs, looking at just laser mechs. Obviously, my Clan mechs will still have a range advantage, but it seems like the Clan advantages have been lessened.

[Nightbird]

Davegt27, on 14 July 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

the problem is it wont work

9 months after the change we will be having another argument about balance

Better another argument than this one again.

[Remover of Obstacles]

5.25 might be fine for assault mechs that can mount lots of other weapons, but the mediums and lights have no reason to use ERML any more.

Not worth it. Not a good move for the game. Kills off a lot of clan mechs.

Going to see more Piranhas and Mist Lynx.

[Grus]

If you're gonna lower the damage you need to lower the cool down heat and duration... period. Otherwise LEVE IT ALONE!

[Remover of Obstacles]

On the plus side, my Ice Ferret with 4x ERML was left alone for the entire game and saved for last. Not deemed enough of a threat to even shoot at until every other mech was off the field.

I felt so completely useless.

[Grus]

Remover of Obstacles, on 14 July 2018 - 07:26 PM, said:

On the plus side, my Ice Ferret with 4x ERML was left alone for the entire game and saved for last. Not deemed enough of a threat to even shoot at until every other mech was off the field.

I felt so completely useless.

Waste of tonnage is what the erml is now.

[Rusharn]

I have found when Clan mechs using cERmed are facing off with my IS mechs using IS ERMed lasers, the tended to lose. The IS ER med laser has almost as much range, a short cycle time, a shorter duration and runs cooler. Even using Clan heat sinks, I noticed the Clan mechs overheating more often especially when pressed into closer engagement ranges. My IS Marauders were tearing Clanner heavies and assaults to pieces, much less when I used an Annihilator and waded into two Deathstrikes and a Blood Asp and took two out with no problems with the rest of my team folding up the other two.

The ERmeds are too hot for the damage they do, the HML's are too hot and too fragile. The clan just doesn't have any one ton laser weapon that compares to the IS Ermed laser.

Edited by Rusharn, 14 July 2018 - 09:05 PM.

[Grus]

Orville Righteous, on 14 July 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

One thing I noticed with the changes on PTS, my Clan alphas are pretty close to the alphas on my IS mechs, looking at just laser mechs. Obviously, my Clan mechs will still have a range advantage, but it seems like the Clan advantages have been lessened.

range advantage means nothing if the thin your shooting at can close the distance..

[Rusharn]

Pretty much. Now it might be different in 12vs12 games where you could get more concentrated fire, but it's hard to tell when we are Playing 4vs4.

[Grus]

Rusharn, on 14 July 2018 - 09:29 PM, said:

Pretty much. Now it might be different in 12vs12 games where you could get more concentrated fire, but it's hard to tell when we are Playing 4vs4.

It's the other way around in FW.. combined firepower is king. And now we have a shitload less... PGI And Chris just want IS to make it into clan space for once.. and if they have thier way with these changes they are more than happy to "sink the ship to kill the captain"..

[Nightbird]

Remover of Obstacles, on 14 July 2018 - 06:53 PM, said:

5.25 might be fine for assault mechs that can mount lots of other weapons, but the mediums and lights have no reason to use ERML any more.

Not worth it. Not a good move for the game. Kills off a lot of clan mechs.

Going to see more Piranhas and Mist Lynx.

You mean, like IS light and mediums that are stuck with 5 Dmg Medium Lasers?

[Rusharn]

The IS lasers, fire faster, with lower burn and are cooler. When comparing the IS ERmed to the cERmed, the IS ERmed is a far superior that can both engage at medium range and still be cool enough and cycle fast enough to be used in a brawl.

[Nightbird]

There is not one mech today using IS ERML that I would not prefer to replace with CERML. It was already mentioned that new CERML duration should come down, the cooldowns already the same.

Edited by Nightbird, 14 July 2018 - 10:09 PM.