17 replies to this topic

[50 50]

Balance suggests equal.

If the goal here is to reduce the Clan alpha limit, then it's still not going to be balanced and there are other factors that come into the equation that skew the balance further such as the XL engine debate as well as the tonnage and space of some of the equipment.

If the Clan weapons are going to be continually reduced in their differences until in some cases they are outright worse than IS equipment, what are we actually achieving?

Comparing the IS ER Medium Laser to the Clan ER Medium there is very little difference between the weapons in this PTS.

To borrow from Andi's thread:
Current PTS Weapon Stats
Weapon......Damage......Heat......Cooldown......Range......Duration...
ML.................5.00...........3.40...........3.50.............270...........0.90.......
ERML............5.00...........4.50...........4.00.............360...........0.90.......
C-ERML........5.25...........5.70...........4.00.............400...........1.25.......

What this isn't showing is:
Weapon.............................DPS.................HPS
IS ER Medium laser...........1.02.................0.92
Clan ER Medium Laser......1.00.................1.09

In summary, the Clan ER Medium laser goes an extra 40m for more heat and less damage per second than it's IS equivalent.

Just make them the same and let's be done with this endless tinkering of the values because until they are the same, they will never be balanced (not regarding the other factors)

Same for the other weapons.

If the only difference we have between the weapons is that some of the clan weapons take up less space and weigh less, then we can shift our focus to these differences and address other factors such as the XL engines, endosteel, ferro fibrous and heatsinks.

I understand many will say that it's nice to have some differences between Clan and IS tech.

As this is a PvP game, is that really necessary? Would it make a difference? Would our enjoyment of demolishing enemy mechs on the battlefield be any different?

Probably not.

Standardize the tech bases.

If you think it must be so because of lore, then I would suggest we are well past using that argument already and it's the lore that's causing the problems now.

Once that's done, can we get back to adding more maps, features, making the factions mean something and other things that make the game fun?

[ArcRoyale]

It's a little hard to make the factions mean something when they're both the same.

Joking aside, I like the different tech bases because of things like Faction Warfare. A different approach to weapons and how they work goes a long way. Now, the idea of having less DPS for more heat is obviously bad, but making the two factions the same will not solve the problem.

Come to think of it, given critical spaces, I worry it would create more... Can one image a Black Hawk doing more damage than... many things, given it literally has 12 ER meds?

[50 50]

The factions only matter in faction play but unfortunately, as you know, they mean nothing at the moment.
There are other ways to give them some individuality and build depth into the actual factions
I'd love to discuss the possibilities for Faction Play but that's got to be it's own topic somewhere else, but here's a little food for that topic.
The Skill tree.
The main Clan advancement in technology was biological. Genetic engineering, better pilots etc.
The skill tree already has different values for the clan nodes which are worse than the IS ones.
Flip that around so that the nodes are better but you have less points to spread around. (45 points or something)

Anyway....

I can understand that it would be nice to have some differences in the tech bases, but we bump the timeline forward a few years and it's all mixed anyway.
We can still keep the differences between battlemechs and omnimechs and we still keep the differences between the different types of weapons (ER vs Pulse for example) which create different play styles, and we still keep the different mechs according to Clan or IS (not that that means anything in quick play)

If the point is to make it balanced between the tech bases, then the solution is to remove the differences and standardize the tech. Enough of this 'nerf, nerf, nerf' and dodging the fact that it will never be balanced while trying to maintain two separate tech lines.

[Orville Righteous]

I think what they're trying to do is balance weapons overall. So nerf lasers, buff LRMs and S-SRMs so there isn't a wrong/bad choice. That's my feeling.

The changes on PTS will definitely decrease Clan laser alphas. The alphas on one my clan mechs went from 66 on live to 53.5 on test, which is significant. I could play with the build as is on test and was still effective. I ended up switching the build out for 3 LPLs and 4 ER MLs (instead of 2 LPL and 6 ER MLs) and had almost the same alpha (I think it was 54) but I could do better damage over range since I had 3 LPLs instead of 2. I think the ER LL/LPL ghost heat changes might cause problems for the IS vs Clan balance.

[dante245]

50 50, on 14 July 2018 - 03:45 AM, said:

Balance suggests equal.

If the goal here is to reduce the Clan alpha limit, then it's still not going to be balanced and there are other factors that come into the equation that skew the balance further such as the XL engine debate as well as the tonnage and space of some of the equipment.

If the Clan weapons are going to be continually reduced in their differences until in some cases they are outright worse than IS equipment, what are we actually achieving?

Comparing the IS ER Medium Laser to the Clan ER Medium there is very little difference between the weapons in this PTS.

To borrow from Andi's thread:
Current PTS Weapon Stats
Weapon......Damage......Heat......Cooldown......Range......Duration...
ML.................5.00...........3.40...........3.50.............270...........0.90.......
ERML............5.00...........4.50...........4.00.............360...........0.90.......
C-ERML........5.25...........5.70...........4.00.............400...........1.25.......

What this isn't showing is:
Weapon.............................DPS.................HPS
IS ER Medium laser...........1.02.................0.92
Clan ER Medium Laser......1.00.................1.09

In summary, the Clan ER Medium laser goes an extra 40m for more heat and less damage per second than it's IS equivalent.

Just make them the same and let's be done with this endless tinkering of the values because until they are the same, they will never be balanced (not regarding the other factors)

Same for the other weapons.

If the only difference we have between the weapons is that some of the clan weapons take up less space and weigh less, then we can shift our focus to these differences and address other factors such as the XL engines, endosteel, ferro fibrous and heatsinks.

I understand many will say that it's nice to have some differences between Clan and IS tech.

As this is a PvP game, is that really necessary? Would it make a difference? Would our enjoyment of demolishing enemy mechs on the battlefield be any different?

Probably not.

Standardize the tech bases.

If you think it must be so because of lore, then I would suggest we are well past using that argument already and it's the lore that's causing the problems now.

Once that's done, can we get back to adding more maps, features, making the factions mean something and other things that make the game fun?

still throwing mixed tech as an alternative to vanilla tech..

[Symonia]

'lol just make them the same' defeats the entire purpose of having them different at all in the first place.
Removing the need to tinker isn't smart or innovative, it's just damn lazy.
Besides, it helps enforce "you need this different mech to do X thing, buy it" business model, so PGI isn't going to scrap it.

The biggest issue between the two (other than who gets which weapons, rather than the stats on them) is the amount of slots things take up, with one of the most obvious examples being the double heatsinks.

If IS doubles gave a chunk more heat off than the clan ones in return for the bigger size, sure, but with just being bigger ehhh
And it's that sort of difference that makes the laser spew on clan possible in the first place, being able to have three doubles in the space of two IS ones, and actually being able to leg them.

[Krighton0157]

With the 30% Extra burn time of the clan ER lasers and the extra 25-30% heat on them in exchange for an extra 20% damage and 9-10% extra range it doesn't compensate enough. 30% heat and Burn time should be compensated by with more than 20% damage and 9-10% range. Cooldown was only reduced by 12.5%.

If they are dropping the damage by 25% then the Burn time needs to be dropped by the same percentage.

Instead here they are leaving the Burn time at 39% higher than the IS, 5% more damage after dropping it by a total of 25%, Heat is 30% higher than the IS after dropping it by 10%, Range is only 10% farther... The Burn time needs a huge reduction to only 5-10% higher than the IS to compensate for the rest of the stats that are only that much higher than the IS counterparts. It still reduces the greater clan alphas on the heavier mechs without neutering the lighter mechs that rely on them.

If these are the changes for ER Med Laser: Damage reduced to 5.25 from 7, Heat reduced to 5.7 from 6.3, Cooldown reduced to 4 from 4.5. Then the Burn time should get reduced to 1 which is 10% higher roughly than the IS ER ML. The ERML are the same tonage and slots as the IS version so the only advantage that they had was the slight range increase and fair bit of damage increase for a fairly substantial increase to Burn time, Heat and moderate increase to cooldown. If the bonuses are reduced to only 5-10% then the penalties need to all be reduced equally. Maybe really increase ghost heat on the affected lasers for firing more than 5 or 6 at a time.

Maybe something like Double the heat from firing that many lasers for the ghost heat. Something that won't affect many light mechs and some Mediums but would be noticeable on the larger mechs and the few Meds and lights that can run more than 6 energy weapons. It isn't so much a blanket fix we need on the lasers but more of a specific use fix such as the 12 Med Laser Nova, or the 94 Alpha Deathstrike with Heavy Lasers.

[KodiakGW]

According to all the crocodile tears we heard from those when they pulled the laser nerfs from the last patch, they don't want anyone playing "one button warrior online" anymore.

Oh, wait...

NOW we have "one button warrior online" guys! GGCLOSE!



That Nova pilot.....

[SilentScreamer]

dante245, on 14 July 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

still throwing mixed tech as an alternative to vanilla tech..

I get your point if you are saying "if Clan ERML and IS ERM are going to be reduced to the same baseline, why not allow any mech to mount both both Clan and IS weaoins as they choose."

The problem with mixed tech it doesn't just apply to weapons. Engine in particular, there would be no reason but nostalgia to mount a XL or LFE if the option for a Clan-XL was there. Same with Endosteel, Heatsinks and Ferro-Armor.

I think a better sokution to Clan vs. IS balance would be a handicap value assigned to each chasis. Example: A Ebon Jaguar would take the same dropship space as a Battlemaster/Stalker; or a Kitfox equal dropdeck space to a Blackjack or a Arctic Cheetah matched to a Cicada.

The desired result would be both sides have equal potential firepower, but Clans would typically have speed and IS would have more durability. A different balance than buffing a 30 ton Spider so it can perform equal to a 30 ton Arctic Cheetah, which i the direction quirks and weapon balance takes us in.

[Viking Yelling]

I keep wondering if there's some sort of formula that the energy weapons follow. like something that makes a graph curve in relation to heat, damage, duration, ect.

but i dont think thats the case (II)

[Snukums]

I have to agree with the OP. I don't understand the objective of the exercise.

High alpha is a bit of a red-herring since this "balance" pass only addresses Clan weapons and not the HG/ML Annihilator.

This "re-balancing" is clearly to address a perceived Clan vs. IS concern which is only apparent in FP since in QP, players will migrate to mechs that perform best for them and are the most fun - in most cases regardless of whether Clan or IS.

My take on this is that this change shifts the play-style balance more in favour of brawl which favours the tougher IS mechs, even the laser variants. It doesn't matter in QP since I will just change to the mechs that are most effective - and this might now be mostly IS, but who cares. The meta will evolve.

If all of this investment is going towards "balancing" FP I have to ask if it is worthwhile. In FP, teamwork overwhelms any weapon differences and IS brawl can roll-over Clan teams if the IS can get their act together - which doesn't work for skittles that drop with an assortment of builds and little coordination. Clan range/damage beats disorganized IS brawl but organized IS brawl beats clan range/damage. So are we trying to handicap Clan to achieve equality of outcome?

If this is what PGI wants it means deviating from lore and will evolve to reducing overall differences in weapons and mechs since the laser-beam of "balancing" will shift from alpha, to armour, to tonnage, to pod space, etc. endlessly until equality is reached. This effort is better spent on other things to make the game more interesting. There are some good suggestions above but there are many more avenues that PGI could explore.

[SilentScreamer]

Viking Yelling, on 14 July 2018 - 09:03 AM, said:

I keep wondering if there's some sort of formula that the energy weapons follow. like something that makes a graph curve in relation to heat, damage, duration, ect.

but i dont think thats the case (II)

Not a straight formula no. But there are themes inherited from Battletech source material:
- small lasers give more damage than equivalent mass of medium or large
- large lasers have greater range than mediums, which have greater range than small
- Clan weapons weigh less, have greater range and greater damage than I.S. weapons.
- ER lasers trade more heat and extra burn time for increased range
- pulse lasers generate more damage for increased mass and decreased range
- heavy lasers have more damage and generate more heat

PGI has changed to cooldown for various weapons over time, which is also a good tool for non-Alpha centered weapon balancing.

[Snukums]

If PGI is trying to achieve equality in outcome between Clan and IS in FP where lack of teamwork is what favours Clan, perhaps they can try creating FP game modes that tips the balance towards individual play.

I'm thinking something like a artillery spotting mode where the objective is to hold locks on critical targets from strategic vantages. This would favour fast lights and mediums which tend to skirmish and operate more independently. Even Pirhana's would not have an advantage due to ammo limitations. Maybe not the best idea for an FP game mode but I hope I make my point.

[SunderMK2]

I've reached something of a similar conclusion.

The stated objective of this test is to reduce the ability of the clans to have high alpha damage mechs, in some cases reaching 90 damage. I don't believe that's really the target of this balance pass, I think the true target is the Heavy Large + ER-Medium Hunchback2C-As and Hellbringers we've all seen just about everywhere. These mechs were nowhere near the 90 damage realm, only putting out 60-70 damage depending on exactly how they were built. These were rather strong alphas, but with the high laser burn durations it's possible to spread the damage to a reasonable degree, and the extreme heat produced meant the firing mech would have to hold fire and seek cover for a few seconds to regain enough heat capacity to fire again especially in the case of the Hunchbacks.

The small nerf to the heavy large laser damage seems reasonable enough, but the strong decrease to the effectiveness of the ER-Medium laser seems to be a step too far, and combined with the debuff to the ER-Small leaves the clans hurting for effective weaponry especially for mechs that are so engine heavy that there are few viable weapons for them like the Black Lanner, Linebacker, Gargoyle, Executioner - etc.

The head scratcher for me is the Gauss shake, I don't really see how this was necessary as I've not seen a heck of a lot of clan gauss builds as of late, most shifting for the Heavy Large laser instead. If PGI does not want to see masses of Heavy Large laser spam, then hurting a solid alternative like the Gauss Rifle is not exactly the way I would go about promoting alternative weapon loadouts.

Allowing the firing of 3 large lasers at once still isn't quite enough of an attraction, the massive heat output for a mere 30 damage and a terribly long burn duration doesn't seem extremely worthwhile in my eyes.


If these changes were to go forward, I would expect another mass migration of players from clan to IS in faction play, which will still result in 12 man teams stomping on IS pug groups. Implementing some form of match maker I think would be far more effective than these weapon tweaks for improving player experience in that game mode. The same for quickplay, the current five tier system isn't enough, I would strongly suggest moving to a seven tier system that accounts better for player skill instead of turning into an always climbing XP bar sure to force players higher.

[50 50]

dante245, on 14 July 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

still throwing mixed tech as an alternative to vanilla tech..

You get rid of the duplicates though as there are instances where one version is straight up worse.
In other instances where the weapons are unique, there is no need to create new variations based on a tech line.

Symonia, on 14 July 2018 - 06:02 AM, said:

'lol just make them the same' defeats the entire purpose of having them different at all in the first place.

That's the point I'm trying to make.
In order to achieve the balance they are making the weapons the same and those differences are getting removed.
Own it and just do it.
Advance the timeline 2 years if there needs some sort of spin on it.

The medium laser makes a good example but it's not the only one.
I started to see that they (PGI) were working with some really narrow bandwidths when the Civil War tech was getting tested.
It's not only the overlap of the same class of weapon within a group that they are trying to find some very subtle differences with, but also making sure that those weapons don't overlap into another group and devalue a different class of weapon.
There can by synergies between weapons and there should be different applications or reasons for using the weapons as this creates different play styles with the different mechs.

[50 50]

SilentScreamer, on 14 July 2018 - 08:29 AM, said:

I get your point if you are saying "if Clan ERML and IS ERM are going to be reduced to the same baseline, why not allow any mech to mount both both Clan and IS weaoins as they choose." The problem with mixed tech it doesn't just apply to weapons. Engine in particular, there would be no reason but nostalgia to mount a XL or LFE if the option for a Clan-XL was there. Same with Endosteel, Heatsinks and Ferro-Armor. I think a better sokution to Clan vs. IS balance would be a handicap value assigned to each chasis. Example: A Ebon Jaguar would take the same dropship space as a Battlemaster/Stalker; or a Kitfox equal dropdeck space to a Blackjack or a Arctic Cheetah matched to a Cicada. The desired result would be both sides have equal potential firepower, but Clans would typically have speed and IS would have more durability. A different balance than buffing a 30 ton Spider so it can perform equal to a 30 ton Arctic Cheetah, which i the direction quirks and weapon balance takes us in.

That's certainly true but in removing the duplicates, it removes the balance issues that we go around in circles with.
Because of the differences created by the two tech lines, we are seeing the quirks spiraling up again.
The things that were going to be removed from the game.
I won't deny that some mechs need a bit of help compared to others. That has always been the case because the game solely focuses on being able to kill your opponent.
That's partially a problem with the game modes, but if you look at other team games you tend to have more variation in the roles. We don't really have that in MWO even though at one point 'role warfare' was the focus of attention.

In Faction Play there is the option to use tonnage differences in the drop decks between clan and IS which helps compensate for the lighter equipment of the clans.
It could work in a similar way in Quick Play group queue where a clan mech may actually take up more of the group tonnage than it's actual listed value.
But Solo Quick Play has no such option.

In some ways it is a bit of a shame that the clan has battlemechs as that would have been an identifyable difference between IS and Clan. Oh well.

[Weagles]

Observations: Clan Laser boats built long range striker/sniper less effective. Midrange to short range striker/brawl more effective.

[50 50]

I'm not so sure.

With the attempts to increase TTK, one of which being the additional armour and structure quirks on the mechs, the weapons have felt weaker and weaker.
Combine that with direct changes to the weapons to reduce their overall damage output and it feels like some weapons couldn't open a can of beans.
More often than not you can find yourself blazing away at an open section of mech for what seems no effect. Might as well be using a water pistol.

Initially I was against the idea of mixed tech but I can see that we are in a bit of a spiral with trying to maintain the two separate tech lines so I'm no longer seeing the point in doing so due to the issues it has created and continues to create.

If we flat out removed all quirks and merge the tech, removing the duplicates, then there are no more balance issues.
We are left with Omnimechs being able to replace sections to alter hard point options and we have Battlemechs able to change internal configuration to adjust critical space and available tonnage.

The weapons can be happily tweaked for a role or performance because it doesn't favour one side or the other.

The difference between Clan and IS only matters for Faction Play and if we go by what we have seen possible with Solaris and particular weapons, what's to say it couldn't just be a blanket modifier in that mode only.
What's to say it couldn't be a modifier specific to individual factions? Just thinking a little along that line and there could be some really interesting options.

For quick play, it's suddenly even and you only pick the mech based on omni or battle customization options.