54 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

It used to be back in the day that everyone would equip two modules on their mechs: Seismic Sensor and Radar Deprivation. They brought them because these two skills were incredibly useful.

However after the introduction of the skill tree and the integration of modules into skills, I have found that almost noone seems to want to put points in their Sensor tree.

With the recent uptick of LRM-builds on the battlefield it's time for many players to reevaluate their skill tree. The Sensor tree is just so chock full of useful skills, I think you guys are crazy for not using it.

Since the skill tree introduction, 100% Radar Deprivation is stronger than it ever was in the module days. It now fully counters both the regular lock on time and any amount of Target Decay skills the LRM-boat might have.

I can't emphasize enough how frustrating it is for LRM users to deal with an opponent that has full radar deprivation. However, I can tell you that they will begin assiduously avoiding you and try to find some easier target when possible.

So long story short: STOP CRYING AND MAX YOUR RADAR DEPRIVATION YOU DOPES!

Edited by Jman5, 19 July 2018 - 06:26 AM.

[Prototelis]

Deprivation is pointless as long as;

It doesn't affect the target spotted mechanic
Smart play/positioning and a moderate sized rock will block all incoming lrm fire
Ams severely mitigates the rest of the damage
The investment for just two nodes is so high, and the nodes in the way are mostly pointless


You are way better served using operations and firepower to boost your dps; and survival tree to pad yourself against the incoming badly spread damage.

[Bud Crue]

Huh.

So when I first started messing with the skills tree I felt obligated to take enough sensor nodes to get at least 1 seismic and 3 Radar deps (a good chunk of the left side of the tree) so that I could still have some semblance of my once beloved modules of the same name.

After a while I started to listen to some of the better players in the game who advised me to skip sensors all together. But even then I still found myself having a “Doh!” moment after realizing I had applied the same nodes as always even though I had intended not to.

Now we are at a situation where my bad habit of wasting at least 11 nodes on these things is a good thing?

Well. That’s nice.

Anyway, I don’t see what all the fuss is about. At least in GQ for the hour or two that I play every day LRMs appear no more or less situational than they have historically been. Still can be a plague if you get caught out against enemies boating them on Polar or Alpine, etc. Still can be a waste on maps with decent cover, in a brawl, or when the wolfpacks come hunting. With all the chatter about them however, it makes me think I need to rebuild a couple of fatties to run a true boat again just to see if/what I am missing out on.

[Battlemaster56]

Good thing I get atleast 10 points in sensor just to get radar derp and seismic on every mech I own, I don't why giving it up even with the spot mechanic all you have to do is stand at the same spot for a couple of seconds and start re positioning or flanking again. Plus it's the only saving grace I got against atm and lurm boats.

[- World Eater -]

I was using the sensor tree as a requirement for all of my mechs but this is no longer the case. Operations, mobility, and weapons are a must for me.

[FupDup]

There are times when I wish I had some sensor skills, but in almost all situations I wish I had more armor or firepower. I tend to build for what I'll need most of the time rather than what I'll need once in a while.

It's the same thing that many people do with rear armor (frontal deaths are significantly more common than rear deaths, ergo trying to armor-up your back will just mean that you die from the front more quickly).

[AzureRathalos]

The way I see it, there are three groups of players.

1. The ones that don't use Derp or Seismic and have adapted their playstyle to not need it.
2. The ones that do use Derp or Seismic and incorporate it into thair playstyle.
3. The ones who don't use Derp or Seismic and have NOT adapted.

The ideals of 1 and 2 do not align, some players will mandate that the skills are needed while some on the other side will say the exact opposite.

The people in group 3 are the problem. They either need to start investing in the sensor tree or learn to go without it. Complaining about indirect fire lock on weapons (Derp) or complaingin about turning a corner to find the whole enemy team (Seismic) is not an option.

[LordNothing]

never really stopped using the sensor tree. people say its worthless but so long as you only take one side or the other its not too bad.

[Appogee]

...and then you get NARCed, and it doesn't matter that you took ECM, AMS and all those Sensor skills...

[LordNothing]

Appogee, on 19 July 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

...and then you get NARCed, and it doesn't matter that you took ECM, AMS and all those Sensor skills...

its not like theres not a big icon on your hud to inform you that youve been narced, which tells you to get into cover or go stand near an ecm mech now.

Edited by LordNothing, 19 July 2018 - 09:55 AM.

[KodiakGW]

LordNothing, on 19 July 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

its not like theres not a big icon on your hud to inform you that youve been narced, which tells you to get into cover or go stand near an ecm mech now.

Yeah, but when nobody but you is trying to kill the two NARC’ing Commandos that lag shield through your ranks multiple times, you have to hide listening to “Incoming Missile” for most of the game instead of CARRY HARDER the derps on your team.

[Jman5]

Appogee, on 19 July 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

...and then you get NARCed, and it doesn't matter that you took ECM, AMS and all those Sensor skills...

Doesn't happen enough to really be an issue. And if you keep your eyes out for Paradox and his NARC raven it happens even less.

I think the only build where I would skip sensor tree is a long range one where I tend to sit at 700+ meters most of the match. For everyone else saying they don't need sensor tree, that's fine. I think you're wrong, but it's your build.

This was made mostly for all the people on the forum and in reddit gnashing their teeth complaining about LRMs. You have options and a lot of the Sensor tree skills you pick up along the way are fantastic.

[LordNothing]

KodiakGW, on 19 July 2018 - 10:09 AM, said:

Yeah, but when nobody but you is trying to kill the two NARC’ing Commandos that lag shield through your ranks multiple times, you have to hide listening to “Incoming Missile” for most of the game instead of CARRY HARDER the derps on your team.

thats why you stay with your team. take pop shots at the narcers, its not like they have any real weapons with 4+ tons sunk into narcs.

[Eisenhorne]

Jman5, on 19 July 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

This was made mostly for all the people on the forum and in reddit gnashing their teeth complaining about LRMs. You have options and a lot of the Sensor tree skills you pick up along the way are fantastic.

I'm mostly gnashing my teeth about the effect of LRM's and NARC's in Faction Play. I sometimes forget that most people don't play that. I don't care about quick play, LRM's are an annoyance there and nothing more. You can make any build work there because most people who play it are horrible potatoes.

In Faction Play, however, an LRM team with 6-7 dedicated LRM assaults, 1-2 NARC boats, and the rest as ER Laser mechs to give covering fire is an absolute nightmare to fight against unless you do the exact same thing, and in that case it mostly comes down to who has better NARC light pilots.

*edit - Granted that's not even a problem in MOST faction play games, because I've seen like 1-2 teams competent enough to actually pull it off. It's still annoying though.

Edited by Eisenhorne, 19 July 2018 - 10:25 AM.

[Vesper11]

Prototelis, on 19 July 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

Deprivation is pointless as long as;

It doesn't affect the target spotted mechanic
Smart play/positioning and a moderate sized rock will block all incoming lrm fire
Ams severely mitigates the rest of the damage
The investment for just two nodes is so high, and the nodes in the way are mostly pointless


You are way better served using operations and firepower to boost your dps; and survival tree to pad yourself against the incoming badly spread damage.

Target spotted stupid mechanic has to ******* GO!
As for everything else, sensor tree is good for CQC mechs as it allows you to actually maneuver plus you get seismic. It's those mechs that sometimes can't have the moderate sized rock as they have to cross the road to get into better position.

[KodiakGW]

LordNothing, on 19 July 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

thats why you stay with your team. take pop shots at the narcers, its not like they have any real weapons with 4+ tons sunk into narcs.

Missing the point.

Rest of the team is hiding expecting me to “HOLD LOCKS” for them.
Rest of the team didn’t take AMS.
Rest of the team doesn’t have ECM.
Rest of the team fail to shoot down UAVs.
Rest of the team is ignoring them as the warp trough.
...and my lights ran off to die early....again.

Literally one of my matches Tuesday night while taking my “I’M HAVING FUN PGI” POS loyalty WVR-7D. Every time I saw a Commando, the NARC light lite up and “Incoming Missile” shortly followed. Time to hide instead of chase and leg.

Sure, if I was able to leg them, suddenly the rest of the team would turn their attention to them with the “MINE!!!” shot blocking maneuver and then take another 30 seconds to actually kill it.

[Spheroid]

Sorry with only 91 nodes it is very important to maximize the utility per node selection.

Nearly every click of the firepower or survival tree is useful. Something that cannot be said of the other trees. No one is saying radar derp isn't useful only that the logic of opportunity cost is the correct and guiding factor in decision making.

[LordNothing]

id rather dedicate a few nodes to derp that waste tonnage on ams. i died to lerms what twice in the last 3 months, im not worried.

[Jman5]

Spheroid, on 19 July 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

Sorry with only 91 nodes it is very important to maximize the utility per node selection.

Nearly every click of the firepower or survival tree is useful. Something that cannot be said of the other trees. No one is saying radar derp isn't useful only that the logic of opportunity cost is the correct and guiding factor in decision making.

Survival Tree and some points in Auxiliary tree are the only skills I would put over the Sensor Tree.

Taking sensor tree still leaves you with enough points to fill out Survival, get Strikes/Coolshots from Auxilery, and get 30+ points for firepower skills. This lets you max out Heat Gen there.

For most builds you're trading Operation or Mobility tree for Sensor, which is a good trade.

I think the problem people have is quantifying the impact of utility skills. How many times did you just dodge those incoming LRMs because of Radar Deprivation. How many times did you get passed up for focus fire because the guy targeting you lost LOS for a moment? How many times did an LRM boat decide not to bother shooting at you anymore because you dodged his LRMs 3 times already? How many times did your target info gather speed and target decay provide your team with just enough time to see the paper doll and make a critical shot in the right place next time he pops out? How much less damage would your LRM teammates do if it wasn't for your target decay skills? How many times did you avoid damage by seeing the enemy around the corner with your seismic sensor? How many times did you catch them completely by surprise by going around the other way?

These are difficult to answer concretely, but I'm inclined to believe that together these skills make a huge difference over the course of a game.

What I do know for certain is that if you're concerned about LRMs right now, plopping 19 points in the sensor tree will make a huge difference for you.

Edited by Jman5, 19 July 2018 - 11:41 AM.

[JediPanther]

Sensor tree really isn't worth the points to max out (nearly) unless you are doing a dedicated lrm boat, have ECM, or badly want seismic sensor for an assault. My lrm Catapults,timber wolves, hbk 4j and other lrm focused mechs do have nearly max sensors. Not even my lights have max sensor tree except for a locust out of the seven just to make it different than the other six and my 3L. I have 40 light mechs and less than five have max sensors.

As always COVER,positioning, situational awareness and ams will do you a lot more than the points into sensors.