18 replies to this topic

[_____]

My goal is to make these changes easy to digest, changing only a few values and making sure not to cause a net decrease of TTK as PGI has wanted. These changes also attempt to minimize the hit to chassis that weren't problematic in the first place (Kitfox, Adder, Viper, Black Lanner etc).

1. cERML damage reduction from 7 to 6, heat to from 6.3 to 5.75, heat penalty starts at the 6th cERML. This limits 6xERML+ERLL/LPL/HLL boats, reduces DPH and reduces alpha but attempts to salvage small mechs without much free tonnage that were only taking 4 or 5 ERMLs anyway.

2. Same clan large laser nerfs as PGI suggested except don't touch duration and don't increase heat penalty limit. cERLL to 10, cLPL to 11 (or heat to 11 which is my preference), HLL to 16.

3. Global torso speed increase by 20%, easier to spread laser damage. Indirect brawler buff to counter all low-DPS range playstyles. Should be a net TTK increase despite that mechs can aim faster.

Nothing else is needed. No need to nerf non-problem lasers like ERSL and HML. No need to nerf gauss since gauss isn't the main damage source anyway. People will just adjust to the recoil like IS HG.

Side note, I've spectated players with low dexterity play laser+gauss and they have a hard time even with the current mechanics. Add the timing element and skilled players will just adjust to it but the low-skill players will just avoid that entirely.

I explain these points further in my video as well as include a few other bonus nice-to-haves which I think will not make it.

Edited by BlackhawkSC, 19 July 2018 - 05:52 PM.

[Spectralfx]

I totally support this line of fixing the alpha issue.

[Josh Seles]

I also agree with your suggestion, Blackhawk.
Give lasers some real competition and make torso twisting a thing again.

[denAirwalkerrr]

You said right that cERML nerf will get lighter clan mechs even worse than they are. So personally I disagree with all of these nerf and rather suggest negative offencive quirks on overperformers and positive on underperfomers. Such as +10-15% duration on ER lasers for DS and -5-10% cooldown/+5-10% heat dissapation on mechs like IFR/BLK/COU and others. And as for mobility/agility buffs I ofc up for them.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 20 July 2018 - 04:27 AM.

[admiralbenbow123]

I totally agree with you, Blackhawk. Now we need to make sure that PGI pays attention to this post.

[_____]

denAirwalkerrr, on 20 July 2018 - 04:22 AM, said:

You said right that cERML nerf will get lighter clan mechs even worse than they are. So personally I disagree with all of these nerf and rather suggest negative offencive quirks on overperformers and positive on underperfomers.

I think this is their next step if weapon nerfs don't work. For the KDK3 they first nerfed 4xUAC10 then the chassis itself. You're absolutely right though it should be the other way around, but from PGI's balance history it doesn't look like that'll happen.

[denAirwalkerrr]

BlackhawkSC, on 20 July 2018 - 06:29 AM, said:

I think this is their next step if weapon nerfs don't work. For the KDK3 they first nerfed 4xUAC10 then the chassis itself. You're absolutely right though it should be the other way around, but from PGI's balance history it doesn't look like that'll happen.

Unfortunately weapon blanket nerfs are less effort solutions to current issues.

[Viking Yelling]

as much as i was looking forward to being able to fire 3 ERLL/HLL from my shadow cat, this doesn't feel off kilter.

Although, now Nova's will be getting instant ghost heat just from firing one cluster of ERML on one arm. (ERML are about the only weapon the Nova has. ERSL or SPL are usually a secondary choice for brawling, while still good, and MPL are often too heavy for extensive builds)

I'd prefer if HLL is taking a 2 point damage nerf, that it takes a 2 point heat nerf as well. The duration for this weapon and the already enormous heatgen is a disincentive for this weapon when comparing to other weapon options. 2 erLL becomes an even better option over HLL.

Edit:
disagree with the torso twist Buff.

Edited by Viking Yelling, 20 July 2018 - 10:03 AM.

[Dreagg]

I find these balance changes to be some of the best suggested among the posts on here.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Don't need to lower the ghost heat cap on the cERMeds. Troublemakers like the Hellbringer and Deathstrike aren't running 6 anyway.

Taro has the best bead on fixing this issue of anyone. Damage can be reduced to 6 if necessary, but the higher ghost heat penalties don't solve clan high alpha, it just shoots the Nova in the ****.

https://www.youtube....1&v=u1OC0Vze0pc

[_____]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 20 July 2018 - 08:49 PM, said:

Don't need to lower the ghost heat cap on the cERMeds. Troublemakers like the Hellbringer and Deathstrike aren't running 6 anyway.

The alpha focused HBRs and HBK-IIC-As do run 6. EBJ can easily run 6+2xLPL. My KDK-1 runs 6 ERML + ERLLs although it's not a problem mech. But interestingly the KDK-1 is an example of a moderately-above-average clan mech that's better than a moderately-above-average IS mech for the reason because it has a big alpha.

[Tarogato]

BlackhawkSC, on 20 July 2018 - 11:26 PM, said:

The alpha focused HBRs and HBK-IIC-As do run 6. EBJ can easily run 6+2xLPL.

No, they do not.

The most common HBR build runs 2 large + 4 cERML. You cannot run any more than that, without resorting to using the low-mounted arm hardpoints, which is fairly pointless. People run the HBR because it mounts everything high in the torsos. If you wanted to run 2 large + 6x cERML, you would use the EBJ at the same tonnage, because it has Endo+Ferro, giving you more tonnage to work with to cool that larger alpha, and better hitboxes when exposing its entire body.


2 large + 6x cERML is possible on the HBK-IIC yes, but it is extreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemly hot. In my video linked earlier, there's background footage of my running 2 large + 5x cERML, which is plenty of alpha.


Ghost heat nerf changes virtually nothing. Except now that mechs like the NVA, BKL, GAR, EXE, etc, can no longer run a clutch of 6x cERML in their builds. Even the strongest (imo) KFX build is nerfed. Some of these are chasses you expressly didn't intend to nerf, yes?

Quote

My KDK-1 runs 6 ERML + ERLLs although it's not a problem mech. But interestingly the KDK-1 is an example of a moderately-above-average clan mech that's better than a moderately-above-average IS mech for the reason because it has a big alpha.

I'm inclined to say that the laser Kodiaks are underperforming compared to IS alternatives. They have absolutely terrible geometry and mobility, very frustrating to play.

[_____]

Tarogato, on 21 July 2018 - 12:52 AM, said:

No, they do not.

The most common HBR build runs 2 large + 4 cERML. You cannot run any more than that, without resorting to using the low-mounted arm hardpoints, which is fairly pointless.

I've ran both and I can tell you there are benefits to both versions. Neither is strictly better and it depends on player preference. The 2 lower arm mounted lasers are options for when you side peek (not every piece of cover in MWO is a nice ridgeline or hill). They're also good for killing UAVs, the thing that makes your ECM worthless. You can use weapon groups to control which set of weapons are best for that particular scenario.

Tarogato, on 21 July 2018 - 12:52 AM, said:

People run the HBR because it mounts everything high in the torsos. If you wanted to run 2 large + 6x cERML, you would use the EBJ at the same tonnage, because it has Endo+Ferro, giving you more tonnage to work with to cool that larger alpha, and better hitboxes when exposing its entire body.

You forgot the ECM. As it relates specifically to the 6xERML + 2xERLL build, the ECM helps you get the first shot off and gives you a bit more time to get back to cover. A side peek with the HBR quite a bit safer to do than with an EBJ.

Tarogato, on 21 July 2018 - 12:52 AM, said:

2 large + 6x cERML is possible on the HBK-IIC yes, but it is extreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemly hot. In my video linked earlier, there's background footage of my running 2 large + 5x cERML, which is plenty of alpha.

Again weapon groups + more options. You sacrifice 2 DHS for the option of a bigger alpha, worth it for some people.

Tarogato, on 21 July 2018 - 12:52 AM, said:

Ghost heat nerf changes virtually nothing. Except now that mechs like the NVA, BKL, GAR, EXE, etc, can no longer run a clutch of 6x cERML in their builds. Even the strongest (imo) KFX build is nerfed. Some of these are chasses you expressly didn't intend to nerf, yes?

My prediction is that a heat penality limit decrease will happen whether you like it or not. My suggestion is to minimize the damage to weaker mechs so I suggest to PGI that if they're going to do it, do a more modest nerf. What this really does is take away options from the HBR and EBJ. For example in the HBR case, it becomes impractical to armor up an arm for a single ERML. If you don't believe me that people run 6xERML right now on the HBR then ok...

Tarogato, on 21 July 2018 - 12:52 AM, said:

I'm inclined to say that the laser Kodiaks are underperforming compared to IS alternatives. They have absolutely terrible geometry and mobility, very frustrating to play.

You're probably misreading what I wrote. I'm comparing a moderately-above-average IS assault like the MAL-2P to the KDK-1 which I consider to be a moderately-above-average clan assault. This is subjective but I think the KDK-1 (and almost any other non-garbage clan heavy or assault) right now can use better lasers as a crutch and out-class similarly placed IS mechs.

Edited by BlackhawkSC, 21 July 2018 - 02:27 AM.

[Tarogato]

BlackhawkSC, on 21 July 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

You forgot the ECM. As it relates specifically to the 6xERML + 2xERLL build, the ECM helps you get the first shot off and gives you a bit more time to get back to cover. A side peek with the HBR quite a bit safer to do than with an EBJ. Again weapon groups + more options. You sacrifice 2 DHS for the option of a bigger alpha, worth it for some people.

If you're running 6x cERML on the HBR, I wouldn't take the ECM. The DHS is better, because you desperately need it with an alpha that large. Plus you have to give up a lot to grab the Sensor tree.

Too many points: https://kitlaan.gitl...8bfd4#s=Weapons

About the best you can do: https://kitlaan.gitl...7d83a#s=Weapons

Quote

For example in the HBR case, it becomes impractical to armor up an arm for a single ERML. If you don't believe me that people run 6xERML right now on the HBR then ok...

That arm already has armour on it, you know, so definitely not impractical. https://mwo.smurfy-n...ac471b3035419fb


The argument is only whether it's worth giving up the DHS to have extra low-mounted cERMLs. And if you want more cERMLs, just take the EBJ and get more heatsinks. There is a reason why the EBJ was used competitively and the HBR was not, when laservomit was firmly in the competitive meta.

Remember, every time you don't fire the arm lasers, you are putting to waste the tonnage you spent on them.

[_____]

Tarogato, on 21 July 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

If you're running 6x cERML on the HBR, I wouldn't take the ECM. The DHS is better, because you desperately need it with an alpha that large. Plus you have to give up a lot to grab the Sensor tree.

Maybe you play with Isengrim too much Taro, this aint MRBC and in the solo queue the ECM is very worth it for 1 ton 1 slot and we're balancing for pub queue here.

Tarogato, on 21 July 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

That arm already has armour on it, you know, so definitely not impractical. https://mwo.smurfy-n...ac471b3035419fb

Nah, my preference is LPLs vs HLL if you go all high mount. I get the HLL but that extra 1/3 second duration gives your target a lot more time to react.

https://mwo.smurfy-n...fe7f5e0c3b1f7a3

Tarogato, on 21 July 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

The argument is only whether it's worth giving up the DHS to have extra low-mounted cERMLs. And if you want more cERMLs, just take the EBJ and get more heatsinks. There is a reason why the EBJ was used competitively and the HBR was not, when laservomit was firmly in the competitive meta.

Yes in comp no one uses ECM and poptart Summoner is the heavy of choice whereas your 2xERPPC barely registers medium mech damage in a 4 minute pub queue match. So what does your argument have to do with pub?

[Tarogato]

BlackhawkSC, on 21 July 2018 - 11:26 PM, said:

Maybe you play with Isengrim too much Taro, this aint MRBC and in the solo queue the ECM is very worth it for 1 ton 1 slot and we're balancing for pub queue here. So what does your argument have to do with pub?

Personally, I usually don't use ECM in pub queue, and I know plenty of others who don't use it either. So it has everything to do with pub queue. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Tarogato, 22 July 2018 - 02:30 PM.

[HammerMaster]

1 fix to rule them all.
Clan v clan. Fixed.

[_____]

Tarogato, on 22 July 2018 - 02:20 PM, said:

Personally, I usually don't use ECM in pub queue, and I know plenty of others who don't use it either. So it has everything to do with pub queue. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Stop showing off lol :-|

[Jack Shayu Walker]

BlackhawkSC, on 21 July 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

My prediction is that a heat penality limit decrease will happen whether you like it or not. My suggestion is to minimize the damage to weaker mechs so I suggest to PGI that if they're going to do it, do a more modest nerf. What this really does is take away options from the HBR and EBJ. For example in the HBR case, it becomes impractical to armor up an arm for a single ERML. If you don't believe me that people run 6xERML right now on the HBR then ok...

This reminds of that ubiquitous scene in many movies and anime where one of the main characters who's working with the big bad shouts at his companions to just come with him to the dark side because it's the only way they'll survive, and he's trying to protect them.

Don't make dumb concessions to Chris Lowrey as some kind of damage control. Settle for nothing less than a decent solution and piss and moan if a poor one is put in place instead. If he still doesn't listen after that, then the game dies and Chris Strangled it with his own hands. DO NOT encourage him to nerf chassis on the edge of viability, to "take options away from" over-performing chassis; that is asinine, and would not be entertained as a legitament option at any competent dev studio.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 22 July 2018 - 09:56 PM.