32 replies to this topic

[dante245]

they need to re scale and fine tune the Uziel .. as you can see...the torso's are far larger then they should be on the mech " there heads were quite large and had great vision" and torsos were more compact and lower on the over all frame. also...arms were bigger..meaning you could torso twist and try and arm shield damage,,which you cant do in the MWO version.

ALSO..i believe the mech is a bit larger then previous incarnations seen in MW4 and other games....making it a big target for its tonnage. i feel the mechs abilities should better match the ones portrayed on sarna.net and it should have considerably better quirks then it does. this poor mech in lore was built using the latest IS tech and reverse engineered clan tech since this mech was post clan invasion, and built as a RESISTANCE MECH against comparable clan mechs. hech...PGI even released it under the resistance series of mech packs!!! this mech should have better performance then it currently is, and was the weakest of all the resistance mechs released.

"Built at Defiance Industries Furillo plant, the Uziel is an effective medium 'Mech that is looked down upon by the LAAF simply because it is produced on Furillo and not at the prestigious ]Hesperus facility. The Uziel is built on a Foundation E50 Endo Steel chassis that has a GM 300 XL engine that provides the 'Mech with a top speed of 97.2 km/h. The 'Mech's mobility is enhanced with six Rawlings 50 jump jets that allow the 'Mech to jump up to one hundred and eighty meters. The Uziel is armored with eight tons of Maximillian 100 armor that gives the Uziel adequate protection from enemy fire. To dissipate the heat produced by the 'Mech's weapons, it carries eleven double heat sinks^"
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Uziel

unlike the sarna.net info....the current MWO Uziel does not "have good mobility"
since the mech suffers from a low power to weight and, while you can fit a 300 and above engine
on it...only with an XL "which makes the mech even easier to kill then it already is", can you carry even an ok amount of fire power as the mech has limited hard points" not allowing any boating of small weapons like mediums and machine guns" of which the mech could do in lore".

also..the mech does not have "adequate protection from enemy fire." as it has poor structure quirks and zero armor quirks...which..when combine with bad hit boxes and arms to small to shield with, can not survive very much"

to give you an example of the hitbox issues....
^{the MWO Uziel.....}

its hitboxes currently... SEE how the side torsos extend down into the leg area? "instead of leg shots..will take side torso damage depending on where they hit you on the legs"on an already huge side torso hit box!!" so loosing a leg will dill secondary damage not to the CT...but to one of the side torsos!! this is a major issue!


its size and profile compared to other 50 ton IS mechs" its way to big"


the BATTLETECH uziel...."see the cockpit and head size compared to the torsos?" also take note of the low profile cause of the way the legs are set up. as well as that...you can see the arms are considerably larger and higher placed in this version and thus would allow torso twisting and arm shielding to be viable" on a mech with low to none durability quirks and average base durability" with hit boxes" being able to arm shield would be huge.

Edited by dante245, 22 July 2018 - 05:58 PM.

[FupDup]

All mechs in MWO have the problem where you can hit the torso hitboxes by shooting the crotch. PGI calls it the "thong" layout.

I personally think the crotch should just be split between the two leg hitboxes (on all mechs), no torso down there at all.

Pertaining to the Uzi specifically, a rescale is supremely unlikely. All we can do is pray for some better quirks...but that is also rather unlikely as well.

[Mech Ranger]

FupDup, on 22 July 2018 - 05:55 PM, said:

All mechs in MWO have the problem where you can hit the torso hitboxes by shooting the crotch. PGI calls it the "thong" layout.

I personally think the crotch should just be split between the two leg hitboxes (on all mechs), no torso down there at all.

Pertaining to the Uzi specifically, a rescale is supremely unlikely. All we can do is pray for some better quirks...but that is also rather unlikely as well.

it's true [color=#333333] especially for atlas~,[/color]

[color="#333333"]​by the way , if u keep shooting the leg which have been destroyed , the damage will all focus on the torso in the same side~[/color]

[dante245]

FupDup, on 22 July 2018 - 05:55 PM, said:

All mechs in MWO have the problem where you can hit the torso hitboxes by shooting the crotch. PGI calls it the "thong" layout.

I personally think the crotch should just be split between the two leg hitboxes (on all mechs), no torso down there at all.

Pertaining to the Uzi specifically, a rescale is supremely unlikely. All we can do is pray for some better quirks...but that is also rather unlikely as well.

your probably right...but even if they can not shrink the over all size..they could at least consider resising the torsos and arms" allowing better use of torso twisting/arm shielding" to negate some of that low survivability. also..since the mech was quite advanced and powerful when it was created, some considerable armor quirks" not structure as we have enough of those" would be a huge help over all. its less important..but having more hard points for weapons would allow this somewhat small ton mech to carry some good secondary fire or even boat lower tonnage weapons like mediums and machine guns" i believe it had a few variants in lore that could do that".

[FLG 01]

dante245, on 22 July 2018 - 05:44 PM, said:

also..the mech does not have "adequate protection from enemy fire." as it has poor structure quirks and zero armor quirks...which..when combine with bad hit boxes and arms to small to shield with, can not survive very much"

The canonical UZL-2S and -3S have 76% armour coverage. That is not very impressive compared to the other 50t IS Mechs we have in MWO. The Crab -27 and 27B have 95%, even the -20 with the downgraded armour has 80%. Centurions come with 80% or more. Enforcer -4R has 85%, -5D 95%. And the Hunchback is notoriously well armoured, usually 95% or 100%.

The Uziel was never known to be particularly tanky, which is not really surprising as it mounts an XL engine, relying on 76% armour coverage to protect it. Furthermore the Uziel lacks CASE and stores ammo in the STs.
It may not be overly fragile either but I don't see any lore-based argument supporting strong defensive quirks.

PGI rarely uses lore-based arguments, of course, but then... if lore were an argument, we would not have the Uziel in the first place since it was utterly irrelevant during the FCCW.

dante245, on 22 July 2018 - 05:44 PM, said:

this poor mech in lore was built using the latest IS tech and reverse engineered clan tech since this mech was post clan invasion, and built as a RESISTANCE MECH against comparable clan mechs.

Build to fight against Clan Mechs? No canon source ever said that, and it does not make sense if you look at the armament.

The UZL-3S only works in a combined arms environment when you have to battle RCTs and need to react to many kinds of threats. The UZL-2S is a fine Mech against other IS Mechs but going against Clanners with standard PPCs is hardly the best option. In fact, most IS counters to the Clans focussed on long range weapons to match the Clans, like ERPPCs and GRs (which indeed matched Clan ranges, even if they were inferior overall). It was not until the Celestials that a radically different approach was tried.

Btw., standard PPCs and SRMs are not the latest IS Tech, they were dated even before the Clan Invasion. And the UZL-3S? Well that one sports one of the most eclectic assortment of weapons one can imagine. It's more like those were the leftovers. Also, LB-2X and LPL are some of the worst weapons in TT simply because the alternatives are so much better.

You may have the wrong impression of the Mech based on MW:4. However, it really was not a star, it was barely a footnote in the FCCW. It's absent from the RATs (and we have many of them!); it's absent from the novels (many of them, too!)...




PS: Let's remember the MW:4-Squad...

Uziel (Pre-Release):
A: "Very bad hitboxes, mediocre hard-points and basically no strong points. You may want to rethink this."
B: "NOOOO! MW:4 über alles!!11 Soo iconic!11!"

Uziel (Post-Release):
B: "This is bad! Why did nobody tell me!?"
A: "Um, you were told."


Osiris (Pre-Release):
A: "Pretty average unit, especially compared to what we have already."
B: "NOOOO! MW:4 über alles!!11 Soo iconic!11!"

Osiris (Post-Release):
*completely ignored*


Thanatos (Pre-Release):
A: "Bad hitboxes, and ECM has been nerfed. There might be better choi..."
B: "NOOOO! MW:4 über alles!!11 Soo iconic!11!"

Thanatos (Post-Release):
B: "This has bad hitboxes, and my ECM does not help much!"
A: "Really?"


Hellspawn (Pre-Release):
A: "Just say it."
B: "MW:4 über alles!!11 Soo iconic!11!"

Hellspawn (Post-Release):
B: "What am I going to do with those hardpoints? And why those quirks? They are garbage!"
A: *sigh*

[dante245]

FLG 01, on 22 July 2018 - 07:27 PM, said:

The canonical UZL-2S and -3S have 76% armour coverage. That is not very impressive compared to the other 50t IS Mechs we have in MWO. The Crab -27 and 27B have 95%, even the -20 with the downgraded armour has 80%. Centurions come with 80% or more. Enforcer -4R has 85%, -5D 95%. And the Hunchback is notoriously well armoured, usually 95% or 100%.

The Uziel was never known to be particularly tanky, which is not really surprising as it mounts an XL engine, relying on 76% armour coverage to protect it. Furthermore the Uziel lacks CASE and stores ammo in the STs.
It may not be overly fragile either but I don't see any lore-based argument supporting strong defensive quirks.

PGI rarely uses lore-based arguments, of course, but then... if lore were an argument, we would not have the Uziel in the first place since it was utterly irrelevant during the FCCW.



Build to fight against Clan Mechs? No canon source ever said that, and it does not make sense if you look at the armament.

The UZL-3S only works in a combined arms environment when you have to battle RCTs and need to react to many kinds of threats. The UZL-2S is a fine Mech against other IS Mechs but going against Clanners with standard PPCs is hardly the best option. In fact, most IS counters to the Clans focussed on long range weapons to match the Clans, like ERPPCs and GRs (which indeed matched Clan ranges, even if they were inferior overall). It was not until the Celestials that a radically different approach was tried.

Btw., standard PPCs and SRMs are not the latest IS Tech, they were dated even before the Clan Invasion. And the UZL-3S? Well that one sports one of the most eclectic assortment of weapons one can imagine. It's more like those were the leftovers. Also, LB-2X and LPL are some of the worst weapons in TT simply because the alternatives are so much better.

You may have the wrong impression of the Mech based on MW:4. However, it really was not a star, it was barely a footnote in the FCCW. It's absent from the RATs (and we have many of them!); it's absent from the novels (many of them, too!)...




PS: Let's remember the MW:4-Squad...

Uziel (Pre-Release):
A: "Very bad hitboxes, mediocre hard-points and basically no strong points. You may want to rethink this."
B: "NOOOO! MW:4 über alles!!11 Soo iconic!11!"

Uziel (Post-Release):
B: "This is bad! Why did nobody tell me!?"
A: "Um, you were told."


Osiris (Pre-Release):
A: "Pretty average unit, especially compared to what we have already."
B: "NOOOO! MW:4 über alles!!11 Soo iconic!11!"

Osiris (Post-Release):
*completely ignored*


Thanatos (Pre-Release):
A: "Bad hitboxes, and ECM has been nerfed. There might be better choi..."
B: "NOOOO! MW:4 über alles!!11 Soo iconic!11!"

Thanatos (Post-Release):
B: "This has bad hitboxes, and my ECM does not help much!"
A: "Really?"


Hellspawn (Pre-Release):
A: "Just say it."
B: "MW:4 über alles!!11 Soo iconic!11!"

Hellspawn (Post-Release):
B: "What am I going to do with those hardpoints? And why those quirks? They are garbage!"
A: *sigh*

read
Mechwarrior: Dark Age #11: Blood of the Isle (A BattleTech Novel)


and it was developed during the resistance arc...meaning made post clan invasion.
and look at this and tell me it dose not scream new tech/clan tech? "which was released at the same time in MWO"

and how about its effectiveness in MW4 and past games? https://www.reddit.c...ile_uziel_info/

http://www.nogutsnog...hp?topic=4343.0

https://wiki.mechliv...index.php/Uziel

Edited by dante245, 22 July 2018 - 08:39 PM.

[dante245]

Examples of this mechs potential as shown in past MW installments...





I see FOUR CLAN MECHS....this one little uziel defeated" albeit against bots, not real players" still....

Edited by dante245, 22 July 2018 - 08:47 PM.

[Nightbird]

But, it's meta in Solaris Div7, doesn't that mean it's good?

[FLG 01]

dante245, on 22 July 2018 - 08:33 PM, said:

read
Mechwarrior: Dark Age #11: Blood of the Isle (A BattleTech Novel)

I did. Surprisingly, it's a Dark Age novel, not a FCCW-novel. Again: during the FCCW-era (currently the TechLevel of MWO), the Uziel was barely a footnote.

dante245, on 22 July 2018 - 08:33 PM, said:

and it was developed during the resistance arc...meaning made post clan invasion.

Hm, yeah, I read the intro-dates. Does not change anything I wrote about.
I also daresay I know more about the Mech's canonical history than you do, being a Defiance-fan.

dante245, on 22 July 2018 - 08:33 PM, said:

and how about its effectiveness in MW4 and past games?

That's meaningless. This MWO, not MW:4-reloaded.
Also, what other "past games"? The only other appearence was in MW:LL, and that's just an independent mod.

I get, you like that Mech. Fine. Nice for you. But don't tell me it's some kind of super-effective BT-star. It was not. It rose to some prominence after the FCCW in the Dragoons' ranks but that's it. During the FCCW it was barely there. Not even a RAT-entry!

[jjm1]

With the Uziel use speed, long range and high mounts instead of tanking hits along side your team like a Crab.

I uploaded a couple of 1k matches using a Gauss + ER-medium build, The HPG one was a very close game.





Classic two ER-PPC and everything biased towards speed and cooling also makes it a nice sniper.

[Vesper11]

Gotta support OP on this one (even though I only shoot Uziels). For mech with low head, huge torso and chickenwalker design it has neither advantages of low chicken profile nor it can use its hands to block damage, while CT can be hit from the side. It should be a little lower (with button to straighten out legs to for extra peeking~) with some of hands armor transferred to STs (like PGI did with some other mechs).

Edited by Vesper11, 23 July 2018 - 03:02 AM.

[El Bandito]

As much as I love my Uziel in Solaris, the mech feels weak compared to other 50 ton options I have.

[KodiakGW]

One of the people PGI listens to says it is fine. So, use it as is or sell it. It is not going to change.

Edit: and there it is...

Edited by KodiakGW, 23 July 2018 - 06:17 AM.

[ForceUser]

The Uziel is one of the better 50t mechs available, but in the hands of a good player it's actually a very good mech. It's just the 2S and 3S that are slightly worse than the others.

The thing is that it's extremely high agility has a much larger impact the better you are at the game. It also rewards intellegent agression and punishes static play/cowardice (this might be the problem for most). So I can make the 2S and 3S work but the others are up there with some of my strongest mediums. I've tested this extensively, I have the stats, I played the Uziel 6P exclusively for 1 month straight, the thing is a beast, whether you like it or not. The stats don't lie.

The problem is when the average performance for a mech is in the middle or upper half of the rest of the mechs, there can never be any justification for buffing it. We shouldn't be balancing for incompetence. Learnt to build and pilot the mech to it's strengths or find something more idiot proof.

But you know, whenever people try and demand a buff for an already good or strong mech I half want to say sure, go ahead. Buff it, it might make the underhive finally be able to use it but for me? I'm going to enjoy farming the underhive that much harder in the mech.

[Gwahlur]

dante245, on 22 July 2018 - 08:33 PM, said:

Who stepped on it? Poor guy

[Verilligo]

After thinking about it a while, though I used to support giving the thing some fairly strong armor quirks, I'm not sure that would actually solve the Uziel's problem with survival. Given how difficult rescaling or changing the model/animations is, it might be best to just change the hitboxes. Extend the arm hit boxes inwards up until you reach the torso segments where the JJs/upper ST hardpoints are and the mech will become dramatically easier to twist damage with and you'll gain some extra defense because people will be likely to hit the arm stump, giving decreased damage to the relevant ST. If you then give each arm +6-8 armor to make up for the increased hitbox size, I think that would solve a lot of issues without making it flatly superior to other options.

[Dragonporn]

This mech really needs a bit of a downscale and rework of side torso hitboxes, way too big. I do not agree with people who claim Uzi is agile, on the contrary, it feels very clunky, plus it is quite on fragile side judging by overall IS standards. Crab or Bushie are smaller and insanely more tanky (while Bushie being really more agile) than Uziel.

PPC sniper build didn't work for me with this one, because even if you max mobility tree, accel on this mech is so slow, you pretty much guaranteed to eat return fire whenever you shot somebody. JJ option is also quite weak, you need lots of JJ to make lift speed at least decent, but you don't have tonnage for this, so you should either heavily sacrifice armor or DHS, which will cripple build real bad. And again, worse enemy of this mech is size, it's actually the size of Heavy. Just compare it to, f.e. SHC or ACW PPC sniper, and it becomes obvious how poor choice Uzie is.

However it has some advantages, such as, pretty huge torso pitch angle, which means you can easily hit targets way above or below you from torso mounted weapons. I can't remember any other mech which has it that good, especially mech that big. Also its arms, while they are too thin to use for shielding, on the plus side, it pretty rare to get any hits on them, thus you can safely mount main guns there. Also they are positioned well, pretty high, just slightly below ST, which makes them pretty accurate and comfortable to use. Plus FOV is pretty amazing.

Aside from size downscale, I'd still take thicker arms, because this mech really-really needs something to shield side torsos, plus Uzie suffers from occasional headshots, because head is located center mass, and quite big, to align with overall mech size. Making mech tad smaller would eliminate or significantly reduce said risk.

Currently using 3P(C) as ER LL sniper with backup LMGs and LFE 300. It works alright, considering I never get in brawling range, where this mech gets torn to pieces. Side request for this particular variant would be to add second ballistic hardpoint in left arm. I know it's unrealistic, but a man can dream, right?

P.S. I really-really love this mech, generally from design perspective, it looks very beautiful. PGI, pretty please, buff?

[FLG 01]

Dragonporn, on 23 July 2018 - 06:43 AM, said:

I do not agree with people who claim Uzi is agile, on the contrary, it feels very clunky, plus it is quite on fragile side judging by overall IS standards. Crab or Bushie are smaller and insanely more tanky (while Bushie being really more agile) than Uziel.

I don't know what you feel, of course, but the numbers are crystal clear.

Base acceleration of 50t Mechs:

UZL: 50
CRB: 29,26
HBK: 29,26
ENF: 29,26-33,8
CN9: 29,26 (YLW: 45)
TBT: 29,26
NVA: 29,26
HBKIIC: 20,2

And the 55t BSW: 26,94 (BSW-X2: 33,86)


The Uziel is by far the nimblest of the heavier Mediums. If you use the Skill Tree to improve mobility the difference is even bigger.

The main strength is that mobility: speed, JJ, and acceleration. Pair this with boated ERML e.g. and you get a potent, if vulnerable, cavalry Mech in MWO. Unfortunately most people are either unwilling or incapable of adapting. They just use the same builds they use on their other 50t/55t Mechs; usually too slow in a futile attempt of up-gunning this Mech. That means failure. (Same with the PXH btw.).
Yes, the hitboxes are bad. It's an Uziel, it has a large frontal profile with easily isolated components. That's just what it is.

Edited by FLG 01, 23 July 2018 - 07:14 AM.

[Mech Ranger]

lol , have to say u got the point

i got 3p with xl engine and 3rac2 for fun~ and yes~, it's much easier to get killed than bushwacker with xl engine

so consider it as shadow cat - do some damage when assaults attract ememy - instead of as nova~

it's not fair to compare with little crab , because the viability is almost the only advatage the crab left~

uziel have much better weapon location when it act " fire supporter" role~

Edited by Mech Ranger, 23 July 2018 - 07:23 AM.

[Athom83]

FLG 01, on 22 July 2018 - 07:27 PM, said:

Thanatos (Pre-Release):
A: "Bad hitboxes, and ECM has been nerfed. There might be better choi..."
B: "NOOOO! MW:4 über alles!!11 Soo iconic!11!"

Thanatos (Post-Release):
B: "This has bad hitboxes, and my ECM does not help much!"
A: "Really?"


Hellspawn (Pre-Release):
A: "Just say it."
B: "MW:4 über alles!!11 Soo iconic!11!"

Hellspawn (Post-Release):
B: "What am I going to do with those hardpoints? And why those quirks? They are garbage!"
A: *sigh*

Real-talk... I actually like the Thanatos I pre-ordered and the Hellspawn I just bought in-game.