44 replies to this topic

[Marlowe Lecter]

Savage Wolf, on 23 July 2018 - 05:26 AM, said:

So the fix for inbalance is for everyone to use whatever is currently OP. Got it.

but its not imbalanced...It works perfectly fine as is. In QP you can play a mech with 3 or even 4 AMS. In Faction Play its fairly balanced due to the different missile firing mechanisms.

Edited by Marlowe Lecter, 23 July 2018 - 05:30 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Marlowe Lecter, on 23 July 2018 - 05:29 AM, said:

but its not imbalanced...It works perfectly fine as is. In QP you can play a mech with 3 or even 4 AMS. In Faction Play its fairly balanced due to the different missile firing mechanisms.

Doesn't matter! You fixed all imbalance in the entire game with that well thought out argument you made. So who cares? It's not like that argument only applies when it's balanced.

And if it did, then maybe it was pretty redundant.

Personally, as I mentioned earlier, think that it's more important that as long as AMS exists in any useful capacity, missile weapons will always be inferior to other weapon types that are not dependent upon the builds of your enemies in order to do their job.

[Marlowe Lecter]

Savage Wolf, on 23 July 2018 - 05:38 AM, said:

...

Personally, as I mentioned earlier, think that it's more important that as long as AMS exists in any useful capacity, missile weapons will always be inferior to other weapon types that are not dependent upon the builds of your enemies in order to do their job.

Just for some clarification - I was exclusively responding to (and disagreeing with) the original poster and the other person I quoted about their complaints that Clan mechs can have more AMS than IS and therefore its imbalanced. I said nothing about your argument that AIMs shouldn't exist.
I don't plan on getting into that debate with you because I've seen your other posts on the subject and I know that having that conversation would be a waste of time. Your opinion on the matter will never be changed so its pointless for me to even try.

[Savage Wolf]

Marlowe Lecter, on 23 July 2018 - 05:54 AM, said:

Just for some clarification - I was exclusively responding to (and disagreeing with) the original poster and the other person I quoted about their complaints that Clan mechs can have more AMS than IS and therefore its imbalanced. I said nothing about your argument that AIMs shouldn't exist.
I don't plan on getting into that debate with you because I've seen your other posts on the subject and I know that having that conversation would be a waste of time. Your opinion on the matter will never be changed so its pointless for me to even try.

I know you didn't. I also only mentioned my preference to highlight that I'm not much on either side of whether it's balanced or not. Although I did mention elsewhere that since IS AMS is heavier, it naturally needs to be better.

I primarily responded to you because you made a cop out argument which basically meant that balance wasn't important, we could all just use the same overpowered build after all.

And no, I haven't changed my mind about not wanting AMS in the game. But then again, no one has ever really challenged it on it's the root problem it causes. People often just compare one weapon to another without considering the game it's in and what that means for all balance.

[Mystere]

FupDup, on 22 July 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

That doesn't change the fact that the Clams can have more AMS hardpoints on specific mechs to use against both factions (including enemy Clammers). This game isn't just purely IS vs. Clam.

Well, this game should have been purely IS vs. IS, Clan vs. Clan, and IS vs. Clan since the day the Clans were released -- outside of Solaris, of course.

Planning and foresight, they're real.

Edited by Mystere, 23 July 2018 - 06:25 AM.

[Mystere]

Spheroid, on 22 July 2018 - 10:04 PM, said:

Yeah so what. Play that free Nova PGI gave you.

I don't see how it matters, you don't strike me as the faction warfare type. Anything goes in QP. Bring what you deem is appropriate.

You know, you do have a fantastic point. Outside of CW, faction balance is immaterial.

Why should people give a **** if more Clan Mechs are used in previous MWOWC tournaments?

Savage Wolf, on 23 July 2018 - 05:26 AM, said:

So the fix for inbalance is for everyone to use whatever is currently OP. Got it.

See above.

Savage Wolf, on 23 July 2018 - 06:09 AM, said:

... since IS AMS is heavier, it naturally needs to be better.

I really have a problem with such statements. In the area of technology, the entire second half of the 20th Century and the first two decades of the 21st can be partly summarized by this picture:

Edited by Mystere, 23 July 2018 - 06:41 AM.

[Bud Crue]

This is what we have come to?

The AMS meta?
Folks being legitimately at odds over the “imbalance” of IS v Clan AMS and its impact?

Not sure if this calls for tears or laughter...nope, I got it, it’s laughter.

[eminus]

this will be solved if our LAZORS and BALLISTICS can shoot down those missiles!

[Xeno Phalcon]

Seems fine to me I was puttering around on a fast response bushy with 2ams and just enough skill points in it for the two AMS nodes, three tons of ammo. Everytime I saw MISSILES INCOMMING I actually made it a point to not hide and let them try to hit me. Anything less than a full blown boat just evaporated before it could reach me, especially clan lrms.

[Savage Wolf]

Mystere, on 23 July 2018 - 06:30 AM, said:

See above.

It was irony.

Mystere, on 23 July 2018 - 06:30 AM, said:

I really have a problem with such statements. In the area of technology, the entire second half of the 20th Century and the first two decades of the 21st can be partly summarized by this picture:

This is a video game, not realism. Otherwise we wouldn't even be talking about balance.

[Mystere]

Savage Wolf, on 23 July 2018 - 06:53 AM, said:

It was irony.

I know.

Savage Wolf, on 23 July 2018 - 06:53 AM, said:

This is a video game, not realism. Otherwise we wouldn't even be talking about balance.

It still does not change the fact that it rubs me the wrong way. And given the underlying IP, it rubs me wrongly even more so.

[Marlowe Lecter]

Savage Wolf, on 23 July 2018 - 06:09 AM, said:

...
I primarily responded to you because you made a cop out argument which basically meant that balance wasn't important, we could all just use the same overpowered build after all.
...

Never said that balance wasn't important. You may have inferred that, but that's on you. I said that the difference in the number of AMS a clan mech can carry vs. what an IS mech can carry is not imbalanced. Its a total non-issue. As a matter of fact I said that the very thing that was being complained about is balanced in Faction Play. Quite the opposite of saying balance isn't important.
I also noted that the OP and the other person I quoted appeared to have an RP reason not to run Clan mechs in QP and gave them an option that, quite frankly, empowers them in a way that crying for PGI to change something that doesn't need changing will never do.

[Savage Wolf]

Mystere, on 23 July 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

It still does not change the fact that it rubs me the wrong way. And given the underlying IP, it rubs me wrongly even more so.

Well that is the problem with using an IP based on TT in a multiplayer online shooter. Suddenly we go from world building is king to gameplay is king. Not to mention how things need to be balanced.

So yeah, it was the wrong IP to use for this genre. At least MW5 fits better because it's single player and you can write it of as progression.

[Dragonporn]

Guys, seriously now... x2 AMS can see some use, I'd say in GP/FP mech compositions only, but in solo queue? Almost never.
But x3/x4 AMS? That's just gimmick. Someone who drops in x4 AMS PIR is a big fat troll playing for giggles, otherwise it's unforgivable waste of chassis. Pretty much same you can say about x3 AMS Kit Fox...

[Savage Wolf]

Marlowe Lecter, on 23 July 2018 - 06:58 AM, said:

Never said that balance wasn't important.

No not directly, and probably not intentionally, but your argument would mean exactly that, which was my point. So if you do feel balance is important, you shouldn't like your argument either.

Marlowe Lecter, on 23 July 2018 - 06:58 AM, said:

You may have inferred that, but that's on you.

No, you made the argument, it's your job to explain it properly, so it's on you.

Marlowe Lecter, on 23 July 2018 - 06:58 AM, said:

I said that the difference in the number of AMS a clan mech can carry vs. what an IS mech can carry is not imbalanced. Its a total non-issue. As a matter of fact I said that the very thing that was being complained about is balanced in Faction Play. Quite the opposite of saying balance isn't important.
I also noted that the OP and the other person I quoted appeared to have an RP reason not to run Clan mechs in QP and gave them an option that, quite frankly, empowers them in a way that crying for PGI to change something that doesn't need changing will never do.

That was a previous argument you made and not the one I am arguing. To me if I summed all your arguments up it would be like this: "I don't think they are imbalanced, but it doesn't matter because you can just take the OP option, so balance doesn't matter." At least that is what you said. I doubted that is what you meant so I wanted to highlight the error in the last of the arguments.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Special note: The day 5 event (later this evening) is 300dmg with any missile system - (-.^)

[TheCaptainJZ]

Almost all IS mechs can carry AMS. Not all Clan mechs can and many don't because they choose other omnipods.

[Marlowe Lecter]

Savage Wolf, on 23 July 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

No not directly, and probably not intentionally, but your argument would mean exactly that, which was my point. So if you do feel balance is important, you shouldn't like your argument either.


No, you made the argument, it's your job to explain it properly, so it's on you.


That was a previous argument you made and not the one I am arguing. To me if I summed all your arguments up it would be like this: "I don't think they are imbalanced, but it doesn't matter because you can just take the OP option, so balance doesn't matter." At least that is what you said. I doubted that is what you meant so I wanted to highlight the error in the last of the arguments.

Okay so lets make another thing clear - I do not believe there is an OP option. I never stated there was an OP option, those are your words, not mine. So if the OP takes a Clan mech with 3 AMS or a IS mech with 2 AMS it doesn't matter because they are equal for the reasons that others have already stated.
And again, I never said balance wasn't important. You put those words in my mouth.
You attempt to change the purpose of the thread and then change the goal posts repeatedly.
To that point you are not debating in good faith in any way shape or form and there is no point continuing this discussion with you.

In short -

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 22 July 2018 - 09:25 PM, said:

IS AMS family should be slightly superior than Clan AMS family since IS ones cost more tonnage/slots.

IS AMS is identical tonnage and slots to Clan AMS.

You mean LAMS.

[Christof Romulus]

Honestly... welcome to clan tech?

This has always been the case. Clan field 1.5x the weapons for 75% the weight and 66% the crits (min 1).

This ls literally the same for all systems...