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Lppc Buff, Lets Get This Off The Ground!


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#61 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 02:23 PM

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

I think linear dropoff is fine

its having zero damage deadzones thats not fun.

Linear dropoff is better, but why does the PPC need it in the first place? No that's not the purpose of the SNPPC or ERPPC for existing. I mean that might've been the lore excuse but as far as gameplay goes they both served a role never needed that balancing act in the first place. I don't think min range on the PPC has ever been necessary in MWO, it's an energy weapon with massive heat, it isn't Gauss where you can spam it against push/brawl teams.

#62 The6thMessenger

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 02:54 PM

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

Again the best way to fix LPPCs is to make them better at what PPCs are supposed to do: PPFLD. Raise the damage to 6.


No it's not. Not only you are treading at the purpose of the PPC, by having 2x LPPC beat 1x PPC, as well as 3x LPPC at 9 tons and 18 damage beat 2x PPC at 14 tons at 20 damage -- LPPC is just more economical. The problem is that, slow-firing PPFLD is precisely all about alphas, and having it participate in the same niche means it will invariably be left behind due to people just opting for the larger ones because alpha.

Sure, it will work in it's intended weight class. But given that it can still be equipped to heavier class, we have to balance them to that possibility. By detracting to the same niche and having it's own more aggresive playstyle, which fits the lights rather well, you have given LPPCs a chance to get picked.

In short, NO, 6 damage is NOT the best way, in fact it is the worse.

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

SNPPC should remain a hot weapon, because all PPCs are hot weapons, but it should do higher damage like 10+1+1 damage at least. To firmly set it apart from other weapons in the same range bracket.


At 8.5 heat, it will still be pretty hot. It only needs to be the coolest PPC, precisely because it is operating within a range bracket that being heat inefficient is a burden. Quite simply, SNPPC is should be the brawl-capable PPC because of it's range, and this adherence to hotness isn't serving it well as the alternatives like Medium Lasers and they can have 30 damage just for 6 tons.

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:

SNPPC = 10+1+1 damage, 9 heat, 4 cooldown, 360m/720m range, 1200m/s velocity, x3 ghost heat
LPPC = 6 damage, 5.5 heat, 3.5 cooldown, 540m/1080m range, 90m linear dropoff, 1500m/s velocity, x4 ghost heat
PPC = 10 damage, 9 heat, 4 cooldown, 540m/1080m range, 90m linear dropoff, 1500m/s velocity, x3 ghost heat
HPPC = 15 damage, 13 heat, 4.5 cooldown, 540m/1080m range, 90m linear dropoff, 1500m/s velocity, x2 ghost heat
ERPPC = 10 damage, 13 heat, 4 cooldown, 720m/1440m range, 1800m/s velocity, x3 ghost heat


Since we're spamming unrelated ideas:

Spoiler

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 July 2018 - 03:03 PM.


#63 Khobai

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 03:06 PM

Quote

In short. No, 6 damage is NOT the best way, in fact it is the worse.


I disagree. the primary strength of PPCs is high PPFLD. The primary weaknesses are slow rate of fire and high heat.

Making the LPPC better at what PPCs are supposed to do, while leaving the weaknesses of PPCs intact, is the correct way of fixing the LPPC.

Turning the LPPC it into a quasi-pulse laser with a 2.5s cooldown just undermines the role of pulse lasers while making LPPC no longer resemble the core weapon its supposed to be derived from.

6 damage is the best way to fix it. because the LPPC is meant to be a lighter PPC for use on light and medium mechs. Its not supposed to be used on heavies or assaults (thats what PPCs and HPPCs are for). 6 damage LPPC gives lights and mediums better accessibility to energy-based PPFLD. If they want energy DPS instead thats what pulses are for.

Edited by Khobai, 26 July 2018 - 03:12 PM.


#64 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 03:16 PM

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

Turning the LPPC it into a quasi-pulse laser with a 2.5s cooldown just undermines the role of pulse lasers while making LPPC no longer resemble the core weapon its supposed to be derived from.

Not really, all of the IS pulse lasers have sub-400 optimal ranges. Maybe if we got X-Pulse that might be true, but that's a bit of a different tale.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 July 2018 - 03:17 PM.


#65 The6thMessenger

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 03:28 PM

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

I disagree. the primary strength of PPCs is high PPFLD. The primary weaknesses are slow rate of fire and high heat.


Considering that it's an LPPC that only deals 5 damage, LOL, just LOL. The LPPC doesn't have the primary strength of the usual PPC, so it must compensate on something else no?


View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

Making the LPPC better at what PPCs are supposed to do, while leaving the weaknesses of PPCs intact, is the correct way of fixing the LPPC.


No it's not. This approach is exactly why LPPC is being left out, because people can just play the weakness away, instead of playing the strengths.

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

Turning the LPPC it into a quasi-pulse laser with a 2.5s cooldown just undermines the role of pulse lasers while making LPPC no longer resemble the core weapon its supposed to be derived from.


No it doesn't, you still have the cooler, more efficient, hitscan weapons, compared to a weapon that is far suited at farther ranges.


View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

6 damage is the best way to fix it.


We've been over this. No, it's ******* not. Get it to your head, it will not give any reason for LPPC to be picked over other weapons, because it's playing at the niche of other PPCs and it has the least alpha to make peeks worth while.

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

because the LPPC is meant to be a lighter PPC for use on light and medium mechs. Its not supposed to be used on heavies or assaults (thats what PPCs and HPPCs are for). 6 damage LPPC gives lights and mediums better accessibility to energy-based PPFLD. If they want energy DPS instead thats what pulses are for.



You're looking at this one-dimensionally as usual.

LPPCs can also be mounted on heavier mechs, so they should also be a factor in this case. Faster cooldown also serves the lights well, and if anything it just plays to their aggressive roles. Sure pulses are for DPS, but that doesn't mean LPPC couldn't be DPS -- it's competing against other PPCs at the very same niche that will make it invariably left behind. Give it a different niche, as in a quasi-DPS, it will at least offer a different and fun playstyle.

And this is MWO, not TT, the LPPC should be it's own.

#66 Khobai

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 06:17 PM

Quote

We've been over this. No, it's ******* not. Get it to your head, it will not give any reason for LPPC to be picked over other weapons


you are completely wrong lmao.

6 PPFLD for 3 tons would be great. especially for lighter mechs.

you could take three LPPCs and do 18 PPFLD for 9 tons. taking two regular PPCs would cost you 14 tons...

LPPC would see plenty of use at 6 damage. Because its a very tonnage lite way of getting PPFLD. and thats what light/medium mechs need: an efficient energy option besides lasers; and a way to do PPFLD thats low tonnage.

of course thats also assuming the zero damage deadzone is removed too. Thats one of the big reasons people dont like LPPCs over lasers. But its also just not a fun mechanic.

Quote

Considering that it's an LPPC that only deals 5 damage, LOL, just LOL. The LPPC doesn't have the primary strength of the usual PPC, so it must compensate on something else no?


which is exactly why it should go to 6 damage. so it does have the same primary strength as other PPCs. PPFLD.

Nobody wants a PPC-type weapon that makes you stay exposed for longer periods to benefit from the higher dps/rate of fire. People want PPCs that let them fire high damage alphastrikes then duck back into cover and cool off and give them enough time to torso twist between shots. Thats why increasing damage is superior to increasing rate of fire, because it plays to the strength of the poke meta. Its like you forgot how people play the game... higher damage alphas with longer cooldowns is beneficial for how most people play.

Besides PGI is never going to give it 2.5s cooldown. I can tell you that with 100% certainty. Asking for a 60% rate of fire increase is not even remotely reasonable.

Edited by Khobai, 26 July 2018 - 06:40 PM.


#67 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 06:26 PM

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

6 PPFLD for 3 tons would be great. especially for lighter mechs.

you could take three LPPCs and do 18 PPFLD for 9 tons. taking two regular PPCs would cost you 14 tons...

LPPC would see plenty of use at 6 damage. Because its a very tonnage lite way of getting PPFLD.

It also benefits any mech with a plethora of energy hardpoints. Why take a 4 PPC Awesome when you can take a 6 LPPC Awesome (not that you have anything to do with that tonnage) which is the main problem with going damage, it doesn't just benefit the lighter mechs.

#68 The6thMessenger

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 06:51 PM

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

you are completely wrong lmao.


Nope, you are, let me explain:

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

6 PPFLD for 3 tons would be great. especially for lighter mechs.

you could take three LPPCs and do 18 PPFLD for 9 tons. taking two regular PPCs would cost you 14 tons...


Consider that it's GH limit is 3, and that results into 18 damage. It just moves LPPC up over PPC in the pecking order, HPPC will still be king. Sure, It will work well for lights, but that's just about it. You compete with HPPC, because it's precisely the same niche.

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

LPPC would see plenty of use at 6 damage. Because its a very tonnage lite way of getting PPFLD. and thats what light/medium mechs need: an efficient energy option besides lasers; and a way to do PPFLD thats low tonnage.


If they need lightweight damage dealer, there's ERML, it has better damage/ton. Investing on PPC means you need a lot more heatsinks for less DPS. That means, for lights that need the damage still would go after medium lasers, while those who have the weight allotment will go HPPC. And no, it's not that efficient.

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

of course thats also assuming the zero damage deadzone is removed too. Thats one of the big reasons people dont like LPPCs over lasers. But its also just not a fun mechanic.


But it's not really in the factor. We're only looking at 6 damage, remove the min-range and that's a completely different story.

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

which is exactly why it should go to 6 damage. so it does have the same primary strength as other PPCs. PPFLD.


Nope, it's still at the lower end of the pecking order within the niche. Not only you are going to devalue PPC, it's still going to lose when competing with poke.

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

Nobody wants a PPC-type weapon that makes you stay exposed for longer periods to benefit from the higher dps/rate of fire.


So i guess QK and me are nobody, amirite?

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

People want PPCs that let them fire high damage alphastrikes then duck back into cover and cool off or dont give them enough time to torso twist between shots. Thats why increasing damage is superior to increasing rate of fire, because it plays to the strength of the poke meta.


And that's why they will opt for heavier PPCs that maximize the most damage at a single encounter, and that's why LPPC will invariably lose if it's participating with the same niche as HPPC.

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

Its like you forgot how people play the game... higher damage alphas with longer cooldowns is beneficial for how most people play.


I am well aware of the meta. But again, consider that it's just 6 damage, with 3 LPPCs within a GH. What hope does it have in competing against 2x HPPC? Same problem with 2x PPC honestly.

You want to take the high-road here, yet you fail to think Meta. I have no doubt that meta-wise 6 damage will be a boon, but then again it will not be good game-wise because LPPC will just be left out regardless. Suppose that it's not, well PPC will be and that's not good either.

View PostKhobai, on 26 July 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

Besides PGI is never going to give it 2.5s cooldown. I can tell you that with 100% certainty. Asking for a 60% rate of fire increase is not even remotely reasonable.


Dude, you ain't PGI. Let them speak for themselves. You think defaulting to "PGI wont do it" helps your argument? As if they'd do 6 damage either.

No, we are arguing about what is best for the weapon system. This escape-hatch of yours is a new low.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 July 2018 - 06:53 PM.


#69 dante245

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 06:52 PM

i think the only real things they need to do with light ppcs is drop there heat down and increase there ghost heat limit" so you can boat them on bigger mechs instead of larger dual ppcs....and 2 take away the min range like snub nose so they can benefit small skirmishers better and also allow mechs that boat them to be able to defend them selves if an enemy gets within 120 meters" i think the min range is 90 but not sure"

#70 The6thMessenger

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 12:28 AM

View Postdante245, on 26 July 2018 - 06:52 PM, said:

i think the only real things they need to do with light ppcs is drop there heat down and increase there ghost heat limit" so you can boat them on bigger mechs instead of larger dual ppcs....and 2 take away the min range like snub nose so they can benefit small skirmishers better and also allow mechs that boat them to be able to defend them selves if an enemy gets within 120 meters" i think the min range is 90 but not sure"


Yeah, but what use is left for PPCs if that the case. Don't get me wrong, I'd like 4x LPPC too, but maybe 3x PPC, ERPPC, and SNPPC too?

#71 dante245

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 02:38 PM

just want to put in my two cents here.....first i think all PPCs on the IS side could use some love. i would say the simplest way to fix most of these weapons efficiency is add the 5 damage splash effect found hidden on clan ppcs "for those who didnt know, clan pccs have 10 direct, front loaded damage but an additional effect that deals 2.5 damage to the two nearest components to the one you hit". if you are adamant about not allowing IS ppcs to be as good as clan, then just reduce that splash damage effect to 4 "2.0 damage increments to nearby components" and do this across the board. no weapon in this game should have more heat generated then damage done, that is just stupid and unrealistic" not one weapon in real life does this" regardless if missile, ballistic or energy...its simply good weapon design.

so on that note...either buff the damage on pccs' thru splash" or drop there heat considerably" like 2 points off each weapons or more". also, after adding splash to IS weapons, since the clan only get the one ERPPC and it doe run warm, why not increase its splash damage effect to 6 damage from 5 " 3.0 damage to adjacent components"? as for lights, give them this same splash damage effect that should be ON ALL ppcs and you have fixed light ppcs. "like 1.5 splash to adjacent components" of where you hit.

on this note...heavy ppcs would finally have a very niche and fun role in the MWO game...playing as energy counterparts to heavy Gauss but with less damage out put" understandable as there is no ammo requirement" and its heat would counterbalance constant spam" so no nearly as annoying as heavy Gauss can be" and with a slight damage increase to clan ERPPCS, you would get close energy counterparts to clan Gauss, making everyone happy. "15 base with 5 splash would be amazing, even willing to have increased heat to do this, although it already runs hot as all ppcs do".

Edited by dante245, 27 July 2018 - 02:44 PM.


#72 LordNothing

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 04:07 PM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 27 July 2018 - 12:28 AM, said:


Yeah, but what use is left for PPCs if that the case. Don't get me wrong, I'd like 4x LPPC too, but maybe 3x PPC, ERPPC, and SNPPC too?


i thought about the possibility of increasing the gh limits like this. but then you got an lppc walking over the ppcs and the ppcs stepping on hppcs. i still think the best course of action is lppc - dps, ppc- all rounder, hppc - raw damage/max alpha, and snub - brawl++. with snub getting 2 points splash and ppc getting a ramping minimum range and an extra hitpoint (to differentiate it better from the erppc). i dont think the difference in heat and range between the erppc and the standard ppc makes them distinct enough.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 July 2018 - 04:09 PM.


#73 VonBruinwald

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 04:19 PM

Okay different thought. What if:

We gave all PPC's a charge up time in a similar manner to gauss. Give them a standard charge up of 0.3 seconds per 5 pt's of damage and remove the minimum range.

Light PPC - 0.3s
PPC/ER/Snub - 0.6s
Heavy/cER -0.9s

As a counter I'd suggest increasing their velocities (and standardising their velocities across all types (if you want more you can always use a TC))

#74 Viking Yelling

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 06:22 PM

You can fit 6 LPPC on a Hunchback-4P, btw. With full quirks you can get the Cool down to a little under 3.5.

I really dont think there's anything wrong with Light PPC.
Giving it buffs might make it better, but will it make it more ussed?

#75 dante245

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 02:23 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 27 July 2018 - 12:28 AM, said:


Yeah, but what use is left for PPCs if that the case. Don't get me wrong, I'd like 4x LPPC too, but maybe 3x PPC, ERPPC, and SNPPC too?

reg ppcs would still get more damage from the added splash effect/ heat reduction and still have there advantages" range, damage, and no min" compared to lights...s

#76 Viking Yelling

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 10:09 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 27 July 2018 - 12:28 AM, said:


Yeah, but what use is left for PPCs if that the case. Don't get me wrong, I'd like 4x LPPC too, but maybe 3x PPC, ERPPC, and SNPPC too?

View Postdante245, on 28 July 2018 - 02:23 AM, said:

reg ppcs would still get more damage from the added splash effect/ heat reduction and still have there advantages" range, damage, and no min" compared to lights...s

well, the Light PPC also have the effect that with 4 light PPC, damage and heat are effectively the same as 2 regular PPC. 3 Light PPC is the same heat and damage as 1 heavy PPC, ... ect.

having the ghost heat for all other PPCs at 2 weapons, and then saying Light PPC gets ghost heat at 1.5 of the same heat and damage or other PPCs.

What really starts getting in the way is how light PPC should interact with other PPCs. Currently one light PPC and one heavy PPC will cap ghost heat. But firing 3 Light PPC wont even though they do less damage than 2 of any other PPC.

How would things balance if Light PPC were raised to 4 cap ghost heat, and then separated from other PPC ghost heats?
Making it so that, with 6 harpoints, you could fire 2 heavy PPC and 4 light PPC. That would be a lot of alpha strike but for the comparative tonnage, slots, and heat, this could be a balanced way to negate the need for the Clan laser nerf.

#77 dante245

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 08:33 PM

still..any buffs to the based line abilities of ppcs " like splash damage" would keep the larger ppcs in a place of superiority. heavy ppcs should work like heavy Gauss, reg ppcs should work like reg gauss" with ER being just enhanced range and velocity for increased heat", and lights being light Gauss. add a charge timer if you feel that would keep them from getting to good, but really a simple applied splash damage effect to all ppcs" make it less as you go smaller" and remove min range instead for a damage drop as you got closer beyond the min range. it would function like ATMS but instead of doing less damage at range, they do less effective damge if they fire to close" but would still allow a ppc boat to defend it self" up close " since ppcs run to hot to really use other weapons effectively with it" other than Gauss.

#78 Viking Yelling

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 07:01 AM

View Postdante245, on 28 July 2018 - 08:33 PM, said:

still..any buffs to the based line abilities of ppcs " like splash damage" would keep the larger ppcs in a place of superiority. heavy ppcs should work like heavy Gauss, reg ppcs should work like reg gauss" with ER being just enhanced range and velocity for increased heat", and lights being light Gauss. add a charge timer if you feel that would keep them from getting to good, but really a simple applied splash damage effect to all ppcs" make it less as you go smaller" and remove min range instead for a damage drop as you got closer beyond the min range. it would function like ATMS but instead of doing less damage at range, they do less effective damge if they fire to close" but would still allow a ppc boat to defend it self" up close " since ppcs run to hot to really use other weapons effectively with it" other than Gauss.

I'm gonna have to say I disagree. These are radical changes to PPC, which is otherwise a comprehensive weapon system.





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