157 replies to this topic

[KoalaBrownie]

Savage Wolf, on 26 July 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

Because as I mentioned earlier, this would drastically reduce the worth of hardpoints. The Nova for example would never use it's 12 energy hardpoints.

Depends on the ghost heat.

Savage Wolf, on 26 July 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

How much more?

That's a matter of testing and iteration. Maybe 10% more for AC/20, 2 ML vs 3 ML. And for 2 AC/20 vs 2 ML maybe 20% more, so maybe 2 AC/20 does 50% GH and 2 ML 30% GH. Currently 2 AC/20s is 100% ghost heat. 6 ML is 0% ghost heat. Even though 6 C-ER ML do the same damage while requiring only a fraction of the weight even with heat sinks. Something wrong with that.

For multiple Gauss Rifles, there could be a chance of causing structural damage if you fire more than one Gauss at a time but with no chance of crits. Or maybe for each additional gauss there's a chance of the 2nd and 3rd gauss rifles deviating by up to X number of degrees representing the recoil kicking in before the weapon is fired. But that would probably piss people off so the structure damage I think works better.

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 26 July 2018 - 12:32 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Novakaine, on 26 July 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

And your's is so blatantly obvious if you can't figure out MWO has steadfastly moved in that direction.

Sure.......

Between the mobility nerfs and the lurm buffs, we know what direction this game has moved in, and it definitely isn't towards Overwatch or CSGO. Let's not forget the constant nerfs of alpha oriented play style. You can say this game has been moving in that direction but everything PGI has been doing in the past few years definitely disagrees.

Savage Wolf, on 26 July 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

And yeah they do, that is literally what they tell us. There was even an entire thread recently about a guy who thought that MWOs problem was high TTK and he used twitch shooters as examples.

So one person speaks for everyone, interesting.

Something something, vocal minority, something something.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 July 2018 - 12:50 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

is the High Alpha a Problem ? hitting by 12 Large Lasers from 2 Mechs by Good Pilots is low TTK like hitting from 12 Large Lasers from 12 Mechs with good Pilots...only the better team has now a shorter TTK for the reds, and the bad Teams and Players lost more...alll the Players thats not hit a still standing Mech in max Zoom in 200m or can not foreholding the Cursor by Moving Mechs.
When a Annihilator run alone in Open Field its fast TTK with or without Convergence ...like yers thats not use Torsotwisting and Tactical Awarness and playing defensive...The bigest Problem not Weapons or Convergence ...the biggest Problems Players thats not good enough to play...have Bad position and stand in Focus fire =fast TTK...not using of Cover and Teamplay...play without moving and new Positions =low TTK
And in other Shooters you have Sniper headshot instant Kills

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 30 July 2018 - 02:28 AM.

[Khobai]

KoalaBrownie, on 26 July 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

For multiple Gauss Rifles, there could be a chance of causing structural damage if you fire more than one Gauss at a time but with no chance of crits.

dual gauss by itself isnt a problem. so why punish dual gauss? that makes no sense.

the problem is dual gauss + laser vomit.

individual weapons arnt at fault. the real issue is the various combinations of weapons that circumvent ghost heat. the glaring loopholes in ghost heat are precisely what needs to be fixed.

dont even need to remove convergence. just need to fix ghost heat so it can deal with combinations of weapons better. that is a far less invasive solution than removing convergence.

Edited by Khobai, 30 July 2018 - 02:44 AM.

[Koniving]

Slight mod -- akin to the source material, group firing arcs with convergence.

Left torso arc. CT arc. Right torso arc. And because it is more difficult for most players to use, arm firing arc (but when the arms go too far left or right, separate them by having a separate cutoff range for each.) If your weapon cannot hit the crosshair, it will not fire. (Also lore friendly).

Alternatively, manually set convergence ranges. The TIC has two functions for each weapon group -- Set and Reset.

[Koniving]

So you could "set range" of 270 meters (preferably with a single push of the button) and bam.

What's that, new target at 800 meters? Aim at, set new range, begin firing.

But wait, you want a wider firing arc? Set past the enemy and then start firing, now those pesky evasions won't fetter you none as either direction he goes he's still gonna get hit!

Oh noes, someone's going too fast! Set a closer convergence range than they actually are and now fire away.

This would actually make leading targets easier, as your convergence range won't be constantly changing based on what you actually aim at.

An alternative to this is convergence on target.
In Star Siege you had no convergence if you fired without targeting. But if you target someone, your weapon always converges at the distance to the target. This means you can easily engage a single target. But if you need to hit someone else in a quick pot-shot, you'd have to target them or endure the lack of convergence where you need it (as it'd converge on the original enemy's range). This would significantly increase the skill quotient required for camper style gameplay where players can abuse invisible walls and other game breaking techniques to achieve temporary invincibility of "I can shoot you but an invisible wall protects me from you."

Side note: Upon either manual convergence settings / converge on selected target range... Mechs not intended to have so much armor, especially lights, can probably have it removed as speed would give them their edge. (Those lights not blessed with speed but instead source material inspired heavy armor can and should keep their armor benefits).

[dwwolf]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 July 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

It really isn't.

Also, this assumes high alphas are even accepted as a problem.

High alphas aren't a problem directly...
The real problem is pin point damage application. Something battletech mechanics are not designed for.
Remember BT baordgame real armor values are atleast 6x higher than the number on the record sheet( because 1/6 is the highest chance to hit any single location )

[razenWing]

All these bad ideas with Board Game tie-in suggestions...

Forget nerfing weapons. Just make PGI do their job and develop proper countermeasures/information warfare so that TTK can be higher.

Jesus with the Clan nerf already...

[Imperius]

Why people keep trying to add dice rules is beyond me.

[Mystere]

Imperius, on 30 July 2018 - 06:14 AM, said:

Why people keep trying to add dice rules is beyond me.

Player-set convergence points equals "dice rules"?

What's next? Trigonometry is nothing but a bunch of random numbers?

Edited by Mystere, 30 July 2018 - 06:31 AM.

[razenWing]

Mystere, on 30 July 2018 - 06:31 AM, said:

Player-set convergence points equals "dice rules"?

What's next? Trigonometry is nothing but a bunch of random numbers?

Oh come on, read back on these 4 pages and see how many mention of "this is how it was on the board game" you can find. Like what, 2 pages of volume? So don't give that false equivalency crap. What we are saying and what you think we are saying are 100% different.

[Mystere]

razenWing, on 30 July 2018 - 06:34 AM, said:

Oh come on, read back on these 4 pages and see how many mention of "this is how it was on the board game" you can find. Like what, 2 pages of volume? So don't give that false equivalency crap. What we are saying and what you think we are saying are 100% different.

Prior to my post, the word "dice" was mentioned once, in page 4.

Page 1 made no mention of TT. The 2 references mentioned in page 2 were on the same post. Where was TT mentioned on page 3?

BT was mentioned in page 2 within the context of immersion.

Try again.

Edited by Mystere, 30 July 2018 - 07:01 AM.

[Imperius]

Pc game not a board game. Mechwarrior has always had pinpoint convergence. Quit trying to change the entire franchise to something that would kill this game the moment it was implemented. The fact that PGI has pulled so much of its initial numbers from the BT rules is why we have so many issues. You can’t take turn based values and put them in real-time and think “Yeah this should work perfectly.”

It’s funny it took the stock mode tournament for them to relize a gripe I’ve had for 5 years now about ammo per ton values.

You want to kill mech diversity more?

All this would do is make mechs with tight hardpoint position and lots of arm weapons the only viable options.

[Eisenhorne]

This change would be stupid, and would only cause new metamechs to develop that actually have all the weapons clustered in the same hardpoint location.

[Almond Brown]

Mystere, on 26 July 2018 - 06:33 AM, said:

The reason it was scrapped was because it was conflicting with HSR.

Please do not try to rewrite history/facts. I get more than enough of such people daily IRL.

Dude.. HSR did not even exist at that time. I know you know, cause you were their as well. But HSR, after being added, caused the issues I wrote about and thusly delayed convergence was removed.

[Imperius]

Eisenhorne, on 30 July 2018 - 07:20 AM, said:

This change would be stupid, and would only cause new metamechs to develop that actually have all the weapons clustered in the same hardpoint location.

Echo

[Mystere]

Eisenhorne, on 30 July 2018 - 07:20 AM, said:

This change would be stupid, and would only cause new metamechs to develop that actually have all the weapons clustered in the same hardpoint location.

Shoot off the hardpoint containing the weapons cluster. Done.

[Rafe Yomin]

How about just using heat (if energy draw isn't an option)? Every weapon gets a little bit of shake (like MASC, but less extreme), when above certain heat treshholds. Would give people the option to go for pinpoint damage when cool, but make the mech less reliable when running hot (which is how they work in the novels). You have a better targeting computer: a bit better convergence, even on higher heats. This would make higher targeting computers worth it, it would still give the option for pinpoint, but high alpha builds will have to cool down longer if they want to keep the pinpoint. Then it becomes the choice between high alpha as it is now, but a lot less often (or less accurate if they want to ride the heat scale constantly), or a more heat efficient build which will do less damage in one moment, but will stay more accurate for a longer time. At shorter ranges the convergence would be less of a problem since you can go higher in heat, and will still hit pretty accurately.

[Imperius]

Mystere, on 30 July 2018 - 07:34 AM, said:

Shoot off the hardpoint containing the weapons cluster. Done.

Stop suggesting removal of convergence. Done.

[Eisenhorne]

Mystere, on 30 July 2018 - 07:34 AM, said:

Shoot off the hardpoint containing the weapons cluster. Done.

lol how? your weapons don't converge to a point so you can't target fire!