157 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Eisenhorne, on 31 July 2018 - 01:31 PM, said:

So PGI should stay FAR FAR AWAY from implementing this then. Agreed.

I'd willingly accept the risk over the currently stale and moldy bread we have.

Maffa, on 31 July 2018 - 01:36 PM, said:

LOL what would you have to lose.

Precisely.

[HammerMaster]

Kin3ticX, on 30 July 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

game would have never lasted this long

FALSE.
BattleTech aficionados would have remained.
EPEEN Esports types would have bailed sooner and good riddance.

[HammerMaster]

Prototelis, on 31 July 2018 - 09:31 AM, said:

A blooming reticle that only blooms when moving is a direct nerf to lights. You know, the class that has to continually move or get wrecked.

A bloom reticule is bigger at sprint rather than walk.
IF YOU WERE NOT FULL THROTTLE all the time. You would have a smaller reticule and move further than a mech who is bigger.

[Prototelis]

HammerMaster, on 31 July 2018 - 03:58 PM, said:

A bloom reticule is bigger at sprint rather than walk.
IF YOU WERE NOT FULL THROTTLE all the time. You would have a smaller reticule and move further than a mech who is bigger.

Yes, in the mechs that must remain moving at full throttle almost all of the time.

[HammerMaster]

Prototelis, on 31 July 2018 - 07:33 PM, said:

Yes, in the mechs that must remain moving at full throttle almost all of the time.

You miss the issue that ALL mechs are full throttle ALL the time. Lights to Assaults. THIS is the problem.
Break out your dice.
This doesn't happen on hexes.

Edited by HammerMaster, 31 July 2018 - 07:46 PM.

[Prototelis]

HammerMaster, on 31 July 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

You miss the issue that ALL mechs are full throttle ALL the time.

You miss the issue that even with this ******** mechanic lights are still going to have to be at full throttle most of the time.

This isn't a board game.

Edited by Prototelis, 31 July 2018 - 08:19 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

HammerMastur, on 31 July 2018 - 03:50 PM, said:

FALSE.
BattleTech aficionados would have remained.
EPEEN Esports types would have bailed sooner and good riddance.

Notice how this person would happily get rid of a whole swath of players they don't like. Ive done my fair share of making fun of lore purists and such but I never wanted to outright get rid of them. I think the lore is cool like the next person but I also think its impossible to achieve 1 for 1 translation from core rule into a functional shooter.

HammerMastur, on 31 July 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

You miss the issue that ALL mechs are full throttle ALL the time. Lights to Assaults. THIS is the problem.
Break out your dice.
This doesn't happen on hexes.

Facepalm. Lemmie guess, you binge read Sarna and the TROs and found out it says that 'mechs have walking speed and running speed and therefore we need that hassle in MWO because mah battletech. Whatever

Edited by Kin3ticX, 31 July 2018 - 08:40 PM.

[Eisenhorne]

Kin3ticX, on 31 July 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

Notice how this person would happily get rid of a whole swath of players they don't like. Ive done my fair share of making fun of lore purists and such but I never wanted to outright get rid of them. I think the lore is cool like the next person but I also think its impossible to achieve 1 for 1 translation from core rule into a functional shooter.

If he starts talking about a Final Solution to achieve balance, I suggest you run.

[Kin3ticX]

Eisenhorne, on 31 July 2018 - 08:32 PM, said:

If he starts talking about a Final Solution to achieve balance, I suggest you run.

Getting rid of all the good players would increase TTK if all thats left are the PvE stationary turret skill level players and the LARP in a stock mech based on my lore backstory types, in principle, hypothetically.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

I don't think encouraging people to stand still more is good or fun gameplay.

Mystere, on 31 July 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

Finally, with regard to hitboxes, lurking within these forums is a suggestion to further subdivide hitboxes into smaller sections.

For mechs with barndoor hitboxes this is actually a good idea. But it's never going to happen.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Maffa, on 31 July 2018 - 10:46 PM, said:

well it's the tradeoff for pinpoint accuracy. and again im not thinking of something that would ever get any bigger than the mech itself at medium ranges. It's only i dont think it's reasnable that a moving mech can pinpoint an alpha on another moving mech 500/700 m away.

My biggest problem is that it disproportionately impacts lights and fast brawlers. Who are basically always running. You are cutting off entire swaths of gameplay when the problem could be fixed in other ways.

[KoalaBrownie]

HammerMaster, on 31 July 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

You miss the issue that ALL mechs are full throttle ALL the time. Lights to Assaults. THIS is the problem.
Break out your dice.
This doesn't happen on hexes.

What games are you playing? This game has tons of people just standing around or going up and back down a slope with cover. Full speed all the time? Not even close.

In fact the board game has MORE movement than MWO. Jumping in MWO is absolutely anemic and the distance that a mech can travel between attacks is FAR LESS than in tabletop. In tabletop I can fire exactly one shot a Phoenix Hawk with an AC/20 before it can close to range 1 or even get behind me. In MWO I can fire multiple rounds before he gets that close.

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 01 August 2018 - 02:03 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

HammerMaster, on 31 July 2018 - 03:58 PM, said:

A bloom reticule is bigger at sprint rather than walk.
IF YOU WERE NOT FULL THROTTLE all the time. You would have a smaller reticule and move further than a mech who is bigger.

so Bigger Mechs not hit lights with his Weapons (+lag problems and Hitreg) by moving and over 200m ...and Lights with srms and Mgs have no Problems with Blooming Cursor to hit a Big Target direct in 50m in front

Quote

well it's the tradeoff for pinpoint accuracy. and again im not thinking of something that would ever get any bigger than the mech itself at medium ranges. It's only i dont think it's reasnable that a moving mech can pinpoint an alpha on another moving mech 500/700 m away.

so a Heavy or Assault mech has no chance to stop a SRM Light before her come in Optimal range for his own Weapons ...


what the Problem with Convergence ????? when im seeing a Folk go to aim me, im go fast in Cover ,and in Movement im use Cover and Give and use Support Fire from Team for hold down the reds ...the Problem is not Convergence ...the Problem Lone Wolf Players thats not can play against good Players , or good Teams with good Aim and foreholding of Weapons or thats playing more aggressive as Standing and not stand still to wait of the reds or use the same Ponit for firing of opponents again and again, ...give off the offensive Power from a Team is a Lost in each Wayt..for Turret players better thats plays only the Board game.tMy biggest problem is that it disproportionately impacts lights and fast brawlers. Who are basically always running. You are cutting off entire swaths of gameplay when the problem could be fixed in other ways. The problemnot Convergence ..the Problem Playing without Team ...special builds of false maps and with no sense for Tactical Awarness, Situation and perseverance at the right moment for your own game style and your own Mech and the right Mechclass for the own Playstyle ...to many Crybabies using the slow Assaultclass with nothing sense for ...thats one Problem.
A Annihilator thats only with Brawlweapons "run" in open Field and in a Fireline from 5 Reds is dead and its stupid Playstyle not a Problem with TTK or Convergence

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 01 August 2018 - 02:24 AM.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

As much as I would love a game that truly reflects the depth and scale of Battletech. I know that no one is going to gamble the mountain of cash it would take to do it right.

[Mystere]

Tetatae Squawkins, on 31 July 2018 - 10:51 PM, said:

My biggest problem is that it disproportionately impacts lights and fast brawlers. Who are basically always running. You are cutting off entire swaths of gameplay when the problem could be fixed in other ways.

It's not going to matter much at close range. Almost no one here is talking about convergence going to zero -- or worse turning into divergence -- when running at full clip. A good shot will still be able to hit the target being aimed at.

[Lykaon]

brroleg, on 25 July 2018 - 05:14 PM, said:

Like it or not. Its the only solution that can reliably solve problems like high alpha without creating more problems than it solves. Opposite to how its now when just plain nerfs directly to weapons itself to fix problem of high alpha creates more problems(for example of weapons becoming garbage etc) than it solves.

Hardly the "only" solution.

Option one: alter group fire so all the weapons are not discharged simultaneously but add in a brief delay between weapons as the weapon group cycles. This mechanic would disperse damage over a target that is moving defensively.

Option two: Cone of fire mechanic that would disperse weapon hits if a mech is unstable from rapid movement or even possibly weapon recoil and level of heat the mech has accumulated. A mech that is aiming adiquately will have perfect convergence while a mech running and firing snap shots would loose accuracy in favor of being less vulnerable due to moving defensively.

Option three: Energy draw mechanic (not neccisarally PGI's previously tested versions)

Option four: weapon groups have a damage threshold applied. Any singular weapon group may only have X value of damage. Possibly add delay between weapon groups to avoid simultaneous weapon group discharges to circumvent the damage cap.

Option five: Intergrate a more robust critical hit and component health mechanic that includes all mech components (actuators/gyros/incrimental engine damage/sensors/life support etc) while also increasing health of these components and applying meaningful penaltys for having these components damaged. This will shift the combat dynamic away from simply breaching armor to get to the squishy middle and kill a target outright but instead the dynamic would be to strip armor off locations to expose components and cripple an oponents mech's capabilities by destroying internal components.

Think of it like this, currently when a mech has ant open CT with all armor stripped the remaining health of that CT is lower than the armor value was. Since the "health" of the internals is just handled like even more "hitpoints" it's just stepping closer to making a kill with a possibility of damaging a very limited number of components contained inside the armor stripped location.

Instead we could have stripping the armor being the first step towards destroying internal components with each destroyed component having an impact on the damaged mech's performance. The Time to kill is increased by inflating the internal structure and component health pool and available targets while also providing meaningful results to dealing damage internally (unlike simply increasing internal health with our current highly limited crit hits mechanics)

If an arm actuator is damage the arm reticule will track more sluggishly or even have it's distance of traverse reduced.

Leg actuators could impact speed turning radiou or accel/decel rates.

damaged gyro could cause reticule shake when the mech is moving reducing accuracy for a rapidly moving mech with a damaged gyro.

Life support damage could trigger a pilot to lose conciousness (sort of like a non over rideable shut down if the life support is damaged and the heat gets to high)

Individual engine criticals that impact a mech's heat build up or cooling capacity.

Sensor hits could scramble the HUD with progressively more severe damage even resulting in no HUD displays.


The end goal of making a "kill" isn't all about coring out the CT and pumping huge alpha strikes to remove the target as quickly as possible. with a more robust crit mechanic it may be far more advantageous to disable a weapon (easier target to disable) than core out a CT (loads more hit points)

[HammerMaster]

Prototelis, on 31 July 2018 - 08:19 PM, said:

You miss the issue that even with this ******** mechanic lights are still going to have to be at full throttle most of the time.

This isn't a board game.

Precisely why there are "issues".

[Eisenhorne]

Oh, one thing I'm not sure you are all aware of or not, but.... convergence is only perfect with hitscan weapons, like lasers. Ballistics in this game do not have perfect convergence. Unless a target is stationary or moving right at you (in both cases a stupid thing to be doing) you will have to lead the target. The convergence point of your weapons will be on the point your cursor is on, not the target you're leading, so they will often not hit the same component on a target. I've hit Piranhas in both side torsos with Gausshammers. I've hit centurions in both arms with my Uziel in Solaris while trying to lead a target appropriately.

[Mystere]

Lykaon, on 01 August 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

Hardly the "only" solution.

Option one: alter group fire so all the weapons are not discharged simultaneously but add in a brief delay between weapons as the weapon group cycles. This mechanic would disperse damage over a target that is moving defensively.

Option two: Cone of fire mechanic that would disperse weapon hits if a mech is unstable from rapid movement or even possibly weapon recoil and level of heat the mech has accumulated. A mech that is aiming adiquately will have perfect convergence while a mech running and firing snap shots would loose accuracy in favor of being less vulnerable due to moving defensively.

Option three: Energy draw mechanic (not neccisarally PGI's previously tested versions)

Option four: weapon groups have a damage threshold applied. Any singular weapon group may only have X value of damage. Possibly add delay between weapon groups to avoid simultaneous weapon group discharges to circumvent the damage cap.

Option five: Intergrate a more robust critical hit and component health mechanic that includes all mech components (actuators/gyros/incrimental engine damage/sensors/life support etc) while also increasing health of these components and applying meaningful penaltys for having these components damaged. This will shift the combat dynamic away from simply breaching armor to get to the squishy middle and kill a target outright but instead the dynamic would be to strip armor off locations to expose components and cripple an oponents mech's capabilities by destroying internal components.

Think of it like this, currently when a mech has ant open CT with all armor stripped the remaining health of that CT is lower than the armor value was. Since the "health" of the internals is just handled like even more "hitpoints" it's just stepping closer to making a kill with a possibility of damaging a very limited number of components contained inside the armor stripped location.

Instead we could have stripping the armor being the first step towards destroying internal components with each destroyed component having an impact on the damaged mech's performance. The Time to kill is increased by inflating the internal structure and component health pool and available targets while also providing meaningful results to dealing damage internally (unlike simply increasing internal health with our current highly limited crit hits mechanics)

If an arm actuator is damage the arm reticule will track more sluggishly or even have it's distance of traverse reduced.

Leg actuators could impact speed turning radiou or accel/decel rates.

damaged gyro could cause reticule shake when the mech is moving reducing accuracy for a rapidly moving mech with a damaged gyro.

Life support damage could trigger a pilot to lose conciousness (sort of like a non over rideable shut down if the life support is damaged and the heat gets to high)

Individual engine criticals that impact a mech's heat build up or cooling capacity.

Sensor hits could scramble the HUD with progressively more severe damage even resulting in no HUD displays.


The end goal of making a "kill" isn't all about coring out the CT and pumping huge alpha strikes to remove the target as quickly as possible. with a more robust crit mechanic it may be far more advantageous to disable a weapon (easier target to disable) than core out a CT (loads more hit points)

In other words, you want MWO to head closer to a simulation and farther from the typical FPS.

I'd like that too, very much in fact. But, there is just one major obstacle: PGI. The eSpurts obsession is real.

Edited by Mystere, 01 August 2018 - 07:49 AM.

[Daurock]

Mystere, on 01 August 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

In other words, you want MWO to head closer to a simulation and farther from the typical FPS.

I'd like that too, very much in fact. But, there is just one major obstacle: PGI. The eSpurts obsession is real.

To be fair, a good portion of the community also often clamors for things that head away from the typical "mech simulation" mechanics, (which typically involve slowing the game down, forcing thought before action, and de-emphasizing skills like aim or reaction time) and towards the FPS games. For example, every time I hear someone say "xxx mechs need more agility" I can't help but notice the parrallel to that mindset.