15 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

With the new trainwreck of balance that is brought by the PTS, here's a different approach. It keeps the weapon systems both distinct, and have lower Clan Laser Alpha as a result.

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CLAN:

- ERuL Damage: 3
- ERuL Heat: 1.35
- ERuL Duration: 0.75s
- ERuL Cooldown: 1.65s
- ERuL Range: 150m - 300m
- ERuL GH Limit: 10
- ERSL Damage: 5
- ERSL Heat: 4
- ERSL Duration: 1.0s
- ERSL Cooldown: 3.0s
- ERSL Range: 250m - 500m
- ERML Damage: 6
- ERML Heat: 5.4
- ERML Duration: 1.25s
- ERML Cooldown: 3.5s
- ERML Range: 400m - 800m
- ERLL Damage: 10
- ERLL Heat: 9.5
- ERLL Duration: 1.45s
- ERLL Cooldown: 4.0s
- ERLL Range: 720m - 1440m

- uPL Damage: 3
- uPL Heat: 1.0
- uPL Duration: 0.4s
- uPL Cooldown: 1.40s
- uPL Range: 100m - 200m
- uPL GH Limit: 10
- SPL Damage: 5
- SPL Heat: 2
- SPL Duration: 0.6s
- SPL Cooldown: 2.4s
- SPL Range: 180m - 360m
- MPL Damage: 6
- MPL DPS: 6
- MPL Heat: 4
- MPL Duration: 0.8s
- MPL Cooldown: 3.0s
- MPL Range: 360m - 720m
- LPL Damage: 10
- LPL Heat: 8.5
- LPL Duration: 1.0s
- LPL Cooldown: 3.6s
- LPL Range: 540m - 1200m

- HSL Damage: 7
- HSL Heat: 5
- HSL Duration: 1.15s
- HSL Cooldown: 3.5s
- HSL Range: 150m - 300m
- HML Damage: 9
- HML Heat: 7
- HML Duration: 1.35s
- HML Cooldown: 4.5s
- HML Range: 270m - 540m
- HLL Damage: 16
- HLL Heat: 14
- HLL Duration: 1.55s
- HLL Cooldown: 5.5s
- HLL Range: 450m - 900m

Quote

IS:

- SL Damage: 4
- SL Heat: 1.25
- SL Duration: 0.6s
- SL Cooldown: 2.4s
- SL Range: 150m - 300m
- ML Damage: 5
- ML Heat: 3.4
- ML Duration: 0.8s
- ML Cooldown: 3.0s
- ML Range: 270m - 540m
- LL Damage: 9
- LL Heat: 7
- LL Duration: 1.0s
- LL Cooldown: 3.6s
- LL Range: 450m - 900m

- SPL Damage: 5
- SPL Heat: 1.65
- SPL Duration: 0.5s
- SPL Cooldown: 1.8s
- SPL Range: 120m - 300m
- MPL Damage: 6
- MPL Heat: 3.80
- MPL Duration: 0.6s
- MPL Cooldown: 2.4s
- MPL Range: 220m - 540m
- LPL Damage: 10
- LPL Heat: 7.25
- LPL Duration: 0.7s
- LPL Cooldown: 3.0s
- LPL Range: 360m - 900m

- ERSL Damage: 4
- ERSL Heat: 2.0
- ERSL Duration: 0.6s
- ERSL Cooldown: 3.0s
- ERSL Range: 200m - 400m
- ERML Damage: 5
- ERML Heat: 3.8
- ERML Duration: 0.8s
- ERML Cooldown: 3.5s
- ERML Range: 360m - 720m
- ERLL Damage: 9
- ERLL Heat: 8
- ERLL Duration: 1.0s
- ERLL Cooldown: 4.0s
- ERLL Range: 600m - 1200m

Large Laser is balanced by itself with respect to other laser weapons within the faction.

Small Lasers compensate better DPS over Medium Lasers, but Medium Lasers have waaay more range. Small Lasers are just completely lame so I made them near the same damage output as Medium Lasers. The Medium Lasers would still have the immensely longer range component, which is in my experience exactly the reason why people upgrade from Smalls to Meds in the first place.

The Clan Micro-Lasers are handled by having equivalent DPS with Clan Small-Lasers. This is to make sure that Clan Small-Lasers will only be better in terms of range and alpha, because sure as hell Micro-Laser's problem is precisely range which is completely enough to deter use. They also have greater GH limit.

Clan Pulse Laser is approached by being an ergonomic version of Clan Lasers through lesser heat, faster cooldown and beam duration, they are literally the standard-laser of Clans, but they have longer range -- and you pay more for them so it's kinda fair. Now if there's a concern with ER vs Pulse, it is handled by ER being pokey long-range for passive playstyles, while pulse is DPS at mid-range which will fit aggressive playstyles.

IS Pulse Laser is approached as it was before, higher damage faster ROF lasers. They will still yield the best DPS versus Clan lasers, it's just the Clan has objectively farther reach. However to compensate, the IS Pulse Lasers have the same maximum range as the standard lasers, this is so that they are still competitive at a range. Still, standard lasers still have better damage/ton at longer ranges if one isn't going to maximize the damage efficiency of pulse lasers anyways.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 July 2018 - 03:42 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

You mis-labled MPL range as LPL range.

[El Bandito]

Clan LPL is too good compared to IS version. Not only it has 50% better optimum range at the expense of just .75 heat and .3 duration, CLPL costs a ton less.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 July 2018 - 04:56 AM.

[Judah Malganis]

I'd be comfortable with isSPL doing 4 dmg with that heat, duration and cd. It also would keep it in like with smalls and small pulses having the same base damage for a tech base, as you did with clan ones both having 5 dmg. I'd also increase cMPL to 7, basically having med laser +1 dmg, like their IS counterparts. Same for cLPL, increase dmg to 11 since the IS one has LL +1 dmg, but it would need a longer burn and cd.

Also, in TT, HLLs do 16 dmg for 18 heat, so 16 heat in-game would be acceptable, in my opinion.

[The6thMessenger]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2018 - 04:55 AM, said:

Clan LPL is too good compared to IS version. Not only it has 50% better optimum range at the expense of just .75 heat and .3 duration, CLPL costs a ton less.

I would prefer to compare IS LL to CLPL, and with the CLPL being a direct upgrade precisely because the two have the same long-range poke. The IS-LPL on the other hand, it's a lot more aggressive, brawly. I put the stats precisely to make them good at their niches. And with respect with current flavor, well CLPL is supposed to be superior, as it is right now -- the **** is doing 12 damage for 1.09 duration and 3.2 cd -- if anything the suggested CLPL is nerfed.

To put that into perspective, IS LPL's old DPS is 2.72, and the old CLPL's DPS is at 2.8. The new values would put them at 2.7027 DPS for the new ISLPL, while 2.1739 for the new CLPL. Notice how the CLPL has a lower DPS? This is by design, because it's supposed to punctuate that CLPL is just an ergonomic upgrade for the same but shorter poke, while the IS LPL is a more aggressive DPS weapon.

What should be compared is the IS ER Lasers to Clan LPLs, because the two fit the same profile of poke, while sharing near similar DPS/Ton and Damage/Heat.

- Clan LPL Damage: 10
- Clan LPL Heat: 8.5
- Clan LPL DPS: 2.1739
- Clan LPL Damage/Heat: 1.1765
- Clan LPL Duration: 1.0s
- Clan LPL Cooldown: 3.6s
- Clan LPL Range: 540m - 1200m
- Clan LPL Damage/Ton: 1.6667
- Clan LPL DPS/Ton: 0.3623167
- IS ERLL Damage: 9
- IS ERLL Heat: 8
- IS ERLL DPS: 1.8
- IS ERLL Damage/Heat: 1.125
- IS ERLL Duration: 1.0s
- IS ERLL Cooldown: 4.0s
- IS ERLL Range: 600m - 1200m
- IS ERLL Damage/Ton: 1.8
- IS ERLL DPS/Ton: 0.36

That being said,i acknowledged their faction differences and the balancing needed, so I did upped the heat for the CERLL and CLPL to 9.5 and 8.5 respectively.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 July 2018 - 06:20 AM.

[Almond Brown]

What happened? PGI did not institute the "Community Balance Change" wholesale? I wonder why? LOL!

[SFC174]

Don't care for your MPL treatment on either side. On the clan side it really reduces the distinction between the ER and Pulse variants.

[The6thMessenger]

SFC174, on 26 July 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

Don't care for your MPL treatment on either side. On the clan side it really reduces the distinction between the ER and Pulse variants.

One is a normal ER Laser, the other is a Pulse laser to match the feel of the latter. The Clan needing it to be a pulse laser which is heavier to be as ergonomic as an ER Laser, how is that not distinct? Not only you'd be looking at a pulsating beam, it is completely superior too.

Okay, Im sorry. You mean Clan ER and Clan Pulse? Well that's just damage similarities, the Clan ER still has longer duration and is hotter.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 July 2018 - 02:45 PM.

[Khobai]

CMPL should be 7 damage not 6.

It needs to do more damage than the CERML or theres no point to using it.

The6thMessenger, on 26 July 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

it is completely superior too.

its really not superior if you actually consider the clan meta which is primarily midrange poking. the fact the CERML is hotter is largely meaningless when you can just hide in cover in between volleys and cool off.

in order to justify the added risk of using the MPL for shortrange poking it needs to have a higher alpha potential.
lower heat is nice but ultimately doesnt make the weapon worth it if you have to expose yourself more.

Edited by Khobai, 27 July 2018 - 12:19 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 27 July 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

CMPL should be 7 damage not 6.

It needs to do more damage than the CERML or theres no point to using it.

It does so by having better DPS over it, while also doing better damage/heat. Clan already has better damage in general, doubling down on it just puts us in a difficult spot just as when CMPL is at 8 damage. So, no.

Khobai, on 27 July 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

its really not superior if you actually consider the clan meta which is primarily midrange poking. the fact the CERML is hotter is largely meaningless when you can just hide in cover in between volleys and cool off.

In terms of Clan Midrange poking, how is that not superior? You do your damage faster? That means you can be more elusive because you could look away faster. You are basically doing the clan laser vomit, without it's supposedly harsh drawback of immense heat and long duration.

Then maybe, CMPL isn't just for pure poking and cooling off yeah? Maybe you ought to harass the enemy far more frequently wouldn't it? The problem is that you are again thinking one-dimensionally, as in if it's not serving well for mid-range poking, maybe you're supposed to use differently? And you also get to peek more frequently, how is that meaningless? That means you get off more damaging alphas. I don't think you understand the implications of heat. Are we even playing the same game? How do you not know this?

The Clan MPL is literally close to how IS LPL is played. It's not supposed to be a sniper high-alpha poke like the CERML, so simply turning it as literally CERML+1 won't really help.

Khobai, on 27 July 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

in order to justify the added risk of using the MPL for shortrange poking it needs to have a higher alpha potential.

Not really, no. It needs better heat efficiency, and shorter beam duration.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 July 2018 - 12:42 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

It does so by having better DPS over it, while also doing better damage/heat. Clan already has better damage in general, doubling down on it just puts us in a difficult spot just as when CMPL is at 8 damage. So, no.

again, the clan meta is midrange poking. the clan meta is not short range dps weapons. your weakass MPL is not going to encourage anyone using a fragile clan mech to switch playstyles. the risk vs reward just doesnt pan out.

your weakass MPL only ensures that players will continue to poke using CERMLs. because midrange poking with 6 damage CERMLs is vastly superior to short range dps with 6 damage CMPLs in every way.

if you want a MPL to work, it needs to significantly outdamage CERML to justify the risk of having greater exposure. Which your MPL fails at miserably. Again it needs to do at least 7 damage so it puts out a higher alpha than CERML.

Quote

Not really, no. It needs better heat efficiency, and shorter beam duration.

no lol. heat doesnt even matter to CERML because you can just hide in cover and cool down. heat efficiency is a non-issue. and its not what CMPL needs over CERML.

clan mechs are inherently fragile. thats one rason the midrange poking playstyle is vastly superior for them. that and the longer range on clan weapons and much faster speed of clan mechs.

clan mechs don't want short range dps weapons for the most part. you seem to lack a fundamental understanding of how clans play. when PGI turned the CMPL into a short range dps weapon it actually made clans not use it anymore. And youre taking that mistake to an even worse extreme turning into a weapon no clan player would ever touch.

if you want clan players to use the CMPL again it needs to be better at poking like it used to be. which means higher damage and longer range. Because clan players actually used it when it had those traits. They stopped using it when it lost those traits.

if clans want to dps with heat efficient energy weapons theyre going to use the CSPL if anything. that was always the go to dps energy weapon for clans before it got massively nerfed. CSPL needs to be unnerfed to fill that role.

Edited by Khobai, 27 July 2018 - 03:25 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 27 July 2018 - 02:53 AM, said:

again, the clan meta is midrange poking. the clan meta is not short range dps weapons.

360m is hardly short-ranged -- hell it's buffed from 330m and that is essentially just -10% from CERML, not to mention that it's not supposed to be dealing the most alpha, it's supposed to be a DPS weapon that you keep shooting. Are you really incapable of further insight? You couldn't adjust your own playstyle to fit to the strengths of MPL instead of having it fit a playstyle we are trying to take a notch down in the first place?

Also, **** the Clan mid-range poke meta, it's supposed to be weakened with lesser damage both from heavy lasers and medium lasers. Changing the stats so it plays around the meta is only going to make the game a lot less interesting because it plays all the same -- because you push weapons at the same niche that it's only the question of which deals the best damage. Hell, this is even your problem with the LPPC, why are you incapable of understanding that we are intending to change the meta in the first place?

Khobai, on 27 July 2018 - 02:53 AM, said:

your weakass MPL is not going to encourage anyone to switch playstyles.

No, only your weakass logic won't let you. That one-dimensional thinking is real.

Khobai, on 27 July 2018 - 02:53 AM, said:

your weakass MPL only ensures that players will continue to poke using CERMLs. because midrange poking with 6 damage CERMLs is vastly superior to short range dps with 6 damage CMPLs in every way.

360m isn't short-ranged, or that short. And no, not necessarily, it's only superior depending on how do you apply it -- such as adhering to it's strengths -- if you are using MPL well beyond it's effective range, you're doing it wrong.

Right now, MPL sees adequate use despite having 1:1 damage with CERML, and the setup only preserves that. If anything, CMPL is buffed while CERML is nerfed, and considering how it stands on the power curve, MPL is a lot more powerful and therefore will garner better attention.

If only you aren't narrow-minded.

Khobai, on 27 July 2018 - 02:53 AM, said:

no lol.

clan mechs are inherently fragile. the poking playstyle is vastly superior for them. because of the longer range on clan weapons and faster speed of clan mechs.

Really? You do know that being short-range does not necessarily mean you forgo cover right? Not to mention that the completely shorter duration means less windows of opportunity to get shot back. Also 360m ain't that short, for scale the CERML is at 400m. And the better heat-efficiency is important short range, because unlike long-range, shutting down upclose is even more detrimental.

Are we even playing the same game? cause it really sounds like you don't know **** about playing.

Khobai, on 27 July 2018 - 02:53 AM, said:

clan mechs do not want dps weapons. you seem to lack a fundamental understanding of how clans play. when PGI turned the CMPL into a short range dps weapon it actually made clans not use it anymore. And youre taking that mistake to an even worse extreme turning into a weapon no clan player would ever touch.

What, you haven't played dakka clan mechs? Lol.

No, you only speak for yourself, you aren't representative of the entire playerbase, stop bullshitting us.

Hell, I still use it, i still see people use it. Honestly your narrow-mindedness is real. You're really incapable of seeing other people's point of view are you?

Wrong, I know exactly how clans play, and precisely i want to ******* change that boring poke.

Khobai, on 27 July 2018 - 02:53 AM, said:

if you want clan players to use the CMPL again it needs to be better at poking like it used to be. which means higher damage and longer range. Because clan players actually used to use it when it had those traits.

No it doesn't. We have CERML and CHLL for that boring playstyle. We need more diversity in how to play the game, and fitting weapons into the very same niche just results into a completely uninteresting and bland game.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 July 2018 - 03:23 AM.

[Miocast]

In my opinion there is a lot of options and ways that you can approach problem with lasers balance.

Have you ever considered that cooldown of lasers can be opt out of scheme of things?

What if lasers would act like flamers do (fire as long as you want!), so laser balance would be hold around damage, range, heat per second.

In my opinion it could bring much more interesting and more flexible gameplay: you can chose and adapt around how you want to approach certain combat situation, how long you can and should hold beam on a target, should it be a small low damage poke, or long high damage stream on overexposed enemy.

[dante245]

im in agreement with the OP....seems quite fair.

[Khobai]

Quote

No it doesn't. We have CERML and CHLL for that boring playstyle. We need more diversity in how to play the game, and fitting weapons into the very same niche just results into a completely uninteresting and bland game.

6 damage MPL is not going to encourage diversity

ill continue using CERML thank you very much. and so will everyone else who plays clans. because your CMPL sucks.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 27 July 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

6 damage MPL is not going to encourage diversity

ill continue using CERML thank you very much. and so will everyone else who plays clans. because your CMPL sucks.

Wrong, it wouldn't encourage you. I play Clan, and i use the 1:1 damage MPL, i still see respectable people use it. You don't speak for everyone else. Just because you are incapable of playing differently from the laser-vomit crutch that's going to get nerfed means everyone else couldn't.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 July 2018 - 03:22 PM.