77 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

Dunno, I see it for the 100500th time in a row. Some really necessary balance changes are applied, that are followed by "I cancel my X pre-order" and following gradual reversion of this changes, so at some point we get back to exactly the same point, were we sit for another several months. Same thing has happened with Power Draw system for example.

Don't get me wrong, I play both IS and Clan and I clearly see, that Clans have advantage over IS due to several reasons. Biggest ones - are probably: 1) ST death penalty ("But IS has 'Mech customization" argument doesn't really work, as Clan 'Mechs usually have optimal or at least better than IS STD-engine build by default) 2) Number of hardpoints advantage 3) Tons/Slots advantage, that allows boating 4) Range advantage => 5) Laser vomit advantage

So what? Some guys exploit imbalance in this game, get fun from it and block any changes, that could make this game more balanced, but less "fun" for them? I guess, PGI just need to man up and make this changes, no matter what.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Why should people not vote with their wallet if they are dissatisfied with a product?

[Khobai]

um the reality is nerfs do make the game less fun.

and when PGI mishandles nerfs it makes it that much worse.

[eminus]

Khobai, on 27 July 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

um the reality is nerfs do make the game less fun.

and when PGI mishandles nerfs it makes it that much worse.

and PGI always mishandles nerfs LOL

[S O L A I S]

MrMadguy, on 27 July 2018 - 11:31 PM, said:

Dunno, I see it for the 100500th time in a row. Some really necessary balance changes are applied, that are followed by "I cancel my X pre-order" and following gradual reversion of this changes, so at some point we get back to exactly the same point, were we sit for another several months. Same thing has happened with Power Draw system for example.

Don't get me wrong, I play both IS and Clan and I clearly see, that Clans have advantage over IS due to several reasons. Biggest ones - are probably: 1) ST death penalty ("But IS has 'Mech customization" argument doesn't really work, as Clan 'Mechs usually have optimal or at least better than IS STD-engine build by default) 2) Number of hardpoints advantage 3) Tons/Slots advantage, that allows boating 4) Range advantage => 5) Laser vomit advantage

So what? Some guys exploit imbalance in this game, get fun from it and block any changes, that could make this game more balanced, but less "fun" for them? I guess, PGI just need to man up and make this changes, no matter what.

This is a game where people cried to make the BloodAsp worse so it looked more like a picture and cancelled pre-orders in droves.

Really necessary changes? Perhaps, but that is debatable and not so cut and dry. I am a CW junkie and currently the IS enjoys waaaaay too much armor on uber quirked mechs and while Clams can put out high alphas, they don't have the dps to be able to stop Anni's with it. Heavy large builds are now nowhere near as common and dakka is what you pretty much are forced to bring.
IS laser vomit? Well it can work on some mechs, most of the people I know playing IS are using MRM's, dakka, and heavy gauss.

Thing is that those of us that have been around have seen play styles and variety removed from the game. The constant nerfing is getting tiresome and the game has never felt so narrow to pigeonholed as it does now.

Oh and I was very involved in the power draw test servers and it was hot garbage.

[Asmerak]

Khobai, on 27 July 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

um the reality is nerfs do make the game less fun.

and when PGI mishandles nerfs it makes it that much worse.

The reality is nerfs (done correctly, this is key), make the game more balanced. The reality is that clantech is and has always been flatly superior, and is responsible for blanket quirks on IS mechs to let them compete.

Only through clantech nerfs will the blanket IS quirks be able to be removed, so quirks can finally be used, on both sides, to better differentiate between very similar variants, or to prop up chassis that would be terrible without them. They've even started to do this in the latest PTS update:

The following Inner Sphere designs have seen a reduction to their current defensive quirks:

• Bushwhacker: all variants
  
• Cyclops: Slepinir
  
• Annihilator: all variants
  
• Fafnir: all variants

The issue that we're having (beyond the actual balancing numbers not being stellar) is the immediate emotional reaction people are having every time they see something is being nerfed, and I see this behavior in nearly every game.

[Lupis Volk]

It's not the whales, it's the fact that this community is so divide that no matter what PGI does someone is bound to rage and close their wallet.

PGI is literally dammed if they do, dammed is they don't.

[Burke IV]

Did PGI get massively trolled? I mean if you look at things from the outside it a little bit hilarious how this game is now compared to a couple years back and all because they listened to who??? I would say the PGI brand name is tainted by this personally

[Imperius]

I’ve put in about $4,000-$5,000 into MWO and haven’t played much since the most game breaking change to the game the Engine Desync. This one stupid choice has killed off so many play styles. Assaults can’t twist damage. So you’re left with the only choice of packing as much firepower possible. Picking the lowest engine, and playing poke then cool down behind a rock online. This buffed the already poorly balanced light versus assaults balance in favor of lights again. Not being able to turn fast enough to keep faster lights in your reticle is basically a rock, paper, scissors outcome. You can’t rely on your team, never have been able to, never will be able to. These balance choices need to keep that in mind but they don’t. Then there are the recent gauss changes that are straight up laughably bad. Ghost Heat, Recoil, and Charge on Gauss?

/end of fun
/end of spending on MWO

Edited by Imperius, 28 July 2018 - 03:28 AM.

[Chados]

Well, I’m a whale and I supported Power Draw and the laser-lock proposal...and I was on both those test servers. I didn’t support the engine desync because I thought it hurt too many low tier mechs. I also don’t like the current PTS, esp. the IS armor nerfs. ANHs are sloooowwww with those double HGR builds. They can one shot almost anything but if you get behind one it’s going to hurt. And quick play balance is decent already; I hate to see the Clan laser nerfs. Heavy laser duration keeps the Clanners from getting a full burn on a target as it is.

[Imperius]

Chados, on 28 July 2018 - 03:42 AM, said:

Well, I’m a whale and I supported Power Draw and the laser-lock proposal...and I was on both those test servers. I didn’t support the engine desync because I thought it hurt too many low tier mechs. I also don’t like the current PTS, esp. the IS armor nerfs. ANHs are sloooowwww with those double HGR builds. They can one shot almost anything but if you get behind one it’s going to hurt. And quick play balance is decent already; I hate to see the Clan laser nerfs. Heavy laser duration keeps the Clanners from getting a full burn on a target as it is.

I was ok with idea of power draw but not the implementation.

[kapusta11]

Solution: don't make stupid balance changes.

[Sjorpha]

No one is blocking anything.

You don't get to put blame or responsibility on customers for the design or quality of a product.

This game is 100% PGIs responsibility, there is no principal difference between Mwo and some other product, like say a pair of shoes, in this regard.

Edited by Sjorpha, 28 July 2018 - 06:25 AM.

[Asym]

Whales that I know could care less about balance... heck, most of them don't play more than a few times a month !

They are old MWO players who "collect" everything and I mean everything and buy 3 or 4 sets of anything new the minute it is offered.... Literally.

Balance is a tool that mature games use when they want to "change revenue projections". The age old op then nerf cycle that keeps player buying when the game itself has all but run out of innovation...... And sales are the only Innovation they can control: everything else if sooooooooo expensive and has so many cascading software errors, the only real fix would be to start over (new game engine)..........say, um, like MW5.... Sound familiar?

The customer is never wrong Lad; and, the faults are with the corporation in not having any vision or Innovative spirit to compete so........you get what you get and nothing more.... Welcome to small niche market dysfunctions.

Edited by Asym, 28 July 2018 - 05:44 AM.

[Novakaine]

I agree with you there Asym 95%.
However people here are rage trolls who can't/won't accept anything new.
Or even give a good chance.

[Jackal Noble]

Hahaha.
Whales, no. They all ded.

Catfish, yes.

[MrMadguy]

Imperius, on 28 July 2018 - 03:23 AM, said:

I’ve put in about $4,000-$5,000 into MWO and haven’t played much since the most game breaking change to the game the Engine Desync. This one stupid choice has killed off so many play styles. Assaults can’t twist damage. So you’re left with the only choice of packing as much firepower possible. Picking the lowest engine, and playing poke then cool down behind a rock online. This buffed the already poorly balanced light versus assaults balance in favor of lights again. Not being able to turn fast enough to keep faster lights in your reticle is basically a rock, paper, scissors outcome. You can’t rely on your team, never have been able to, never will be able to. These balance choices need to keep that in mind but they don’t. Then there are the recent gauss changes that are straight up laughably bad. Ghost Heat, Recoil, and Charge on Gauss?

/end of fun
/end of spending on MWO

Engine desync - is part of Clan tech nerfs. Simple thing - overall Clan 'Mechs always have bigger engines, than IS ones => more mobility by default.

What I see now - is PTS 1.1 changes gradually reverted, that will most likely end as complete abandoning of all this Alpha nerf changes, as it happened with Power Draw system. And this isn't first time, when this happens. PGI attempt to balance things at least once in several months. And it always ends as some minor useless changes, that don't affect anything.

Edited by MrMadguy, 28 July 2018 - 06:44 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Most of the games players and community don't have no clue what balance would even work like or look like.

The community is divided because having an opinion is not the same as knowin what you're talking about. The last thing PGI should do is just give the community what it thinks it wants. However the other piece of that problem is that we've had a lot of questionable changes and the game has been less fun overall to play. So who do you trust to make good balance decisions?

[Dragonporn]

I think we miss pretty important point in this convo:
Balance as is, cannot exist per chassis, since obvious game design is built upon "rock, paper, scissors" principle, and it excels at it (why S7 stroke me as pretty strange addition, considering overall design path). However, it doesn't mean there aren't overperforming chassis in their own role, but actual problem lies deeper. It is in particular mechanics and "exploits" if put with a little exaggeration, which makes some stuff seem overpowered. If PGI manages to fix those and put gameplay mechanics straight, we will certainly see improvement across the board, but it doesn't mean mech build or chassis which excel at brawling or poking, f.e., will be on par with each other and be able to fairly slug it out one-on-one.

So I don't see how "whales" are in the picture. Among latest releases, the only mech that seem overperforming was Piranha, all others are either quite balanced, or even on subpar level. I don't think it is fair to accuse PGI for bending over "premium" users. However in most other games of similar format, companies are actually guilty of releasing blatantly overpowered stuff, and then nerfing it back to be on par with everything else over the months to collect revenue, and this tendency is very-very bad.

[Imperius]

MrMadguy, on 28 July 2018 - 06:43 AM, said:

Engine desync - is part of Clan tech nerfs. Simple thing - overall Clan 'Mechs always have bigger engines, than IS ones => more mobility by default.

What I see now - is PTS 1.1 changes gradually reverted, that will most likely end as complete abandoning of all this Alpha nerf changes, as it happened with Power Draw system. And this isn't first time, when this happens. PGI attempt to balance things at least once in several months. And it always ends as some minor useless changes, that don't affect anything.

Speed was the issue mainly the Kodak. Agility should have never been touched! Through all the changes and what not my stats were always positive. The only thing that has changed is the lack of fun and diversity.

Edited by Imperius, 28 July 2018 - 07:34 AM.