16 replies to this topic

[PyrotechnicPanda]

Just finished my 10 games in my go-to laser clan mechs. My mech-specific feedback for what it's worth:

• The 9mpl MAD-IIC build isn't viable anymore. The mpl durations are too long, and have to wait too long to fire the 2nd group without triggering ghost heat.
  
• ERLL/MPL HBK IIC-A and HLL/ML HBR also don't feel right with the longer burns, overall damage output seems a lot lower as well.

Overall the feel I get is the clan laser-based builds aren't fun to play any more. Would much rather play dakka/gauss/ppc/missile based clan mechs, or just play IS if the changes go through. Not sure if this is the intention of the balance.

[x Deathstrike x]

PyrotechnicPanda, on 28 July 2018 - 06:58 AM, said:

• The 9mpl MAD-IIC build isn't viable anymore. The mpl durations are too long, and have to wait too long to fire the 2nd group without triggering ghost heat.

I would argue against that. You still have to wait exactly 0.5 sec to fire the 2nd group without triggering ghost heat.
Nothing has changed here. You only have to wait exactly the increase in duration for the 2nd group to finish.

Edited by x Deathstrike x, 28 July 2018 - 10:18 AM.

[Serenna187]

x Deathstrike x, on 28 July 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

You only have to wait exactly the increase in duration for the 2nd group to finish.

That's exactly op's point,pulse lasers are about quick burst damage,which is not a thing with the PTS duration increase,may as well use ermeds and save half the weight but boil yourself

[x Deathstrike x]

Serenna187, on 28 July 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

That's exactly op's point,pulse lasers are about quick burst damage,which is not a thing with the PTS duration increase,may as well use ermeds and save half the weight but boil yourself

Thats incorrect as OP clearly stated the following:

PyrotechnicPanda, on 28 July 2018 - 06:58 AM, said:

... and have to wait too long to fire the 2nd group without triggering ghost heat.

The time to trigger ghost heat is always 0.5 sec. Again nothing has changed here.

Edited by x Deathstrike x, 28 July 2018 - 11:16 AM.

[Serenna187]

x Deathstrike x, on 28 July 2018 - 11:16 AM, said:

-snip-

You're misinterpreting op's feedback...he complains about the mpl's duration(which is alike to er med now),which forces you to wait the addional time before firing the 2nd group,effectively ruining the point of pulse lasers

[lazorbeamz]

You dont have to wait any additional time. you need 0.5 sec after you have clicked the first weapon group.

IS MPL are about quick damage. ClAN MPL obviously not so much. They benefit from bigger range and shorter duration at the same time but the emphasis is more towards range.

[x Deathstrike x]

Serenna187, on 28 July 2018 - 11:30 AM, said:

You're misinterpreting op's feedback...he complains about the mpl's duration(which is alike to er med now),which forces you to wait the addional time before firing the 2nd group,effectively ruining the point of pulse lasers

Can you read?

PyrotechnicPanda, on 28 July 2018 - 06:58 AM, said:

... and have to wait too long to fire the 2nd group without triggering ghost heat.

He is talking about the time he has to wait to not trigger ghost heat.

Obviously he is also complaining about CMPL duration nerf but that was not what I commented on.

[Ragedog4]

x Deathstrike x, on 28 July 2018 - 01:31 PM, said:

Can you read?

Im with you on this DeathStrike, Also with the duration Im ok with it. That was the whole point to keep higher damage, longer burn, so we can have clan and IS different. So if the Duration is too long for you then you are just asking for worse nurfs. This is the best way proven by https://youtu.be/u1OC0Vze0pc Tarogato. I would rather they do this than bring any damage down.

[Cy Mitchell]

Ragedog4, on 29 July 2018 - 05:03 AM, said:

Im with you on this DeathStrike, Also with the duration Im ok with it. That was the whole point to keep higher damage, longer burn, so we can have clan and IS different. So if the Duration is too long for you then you are just asking for worse nurfs. This is the best way proven by https://youtu.be/u1OC0Vze0pc Tarogato. I would rather they do this than bring any damage down.

Some of those duration changes are ridiculous. Anything over 1 1/2 burn time feels like you are using a fire hose. Try using that 1.75 sec HLL spotlight. There is no way that thing is fun nor is it going to see much use. The lasers that already had long duration need to have damage reduction. The lasers that had shorter duration can stand to have a bit more duration and keep their damage. Longer duration, by itself, is not the answer.

[Abaddun]

You can't have your cake and eat it Clanners, you've got to decide which you prefer; range, damage or duration. You can't have all three.

[PobbestGob]

Abaddun, on 30 July 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

You can't have your cake and eat it Clanners, you've got to decide which you prefer; range, damage or duration. You can't have all three.

I'd like clan weapons worth using. Lasers were all we had left (besides LRM), so now it's 100% InnerSphere time.

[-Spectre]

Abaddun, on 30 July 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

You can't have your cake and eat it Clanners, you've got to decide which you prefer; range, damage or duration. You can't have all three.

Can I pick duration and heat? Like IS? I don't really play IS much, but when I do, and actually try to make a good build (instead of just making a build on my ncix that lets me complete an event), I perform much better than in Clan mechs, because of that sweet, sweet duration, and dph.

[Rydiak Randborir]

-Spectre, on 30 July 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

Can I pick duration and heat? Like IS? I don't really play IS much, but when I do, and actually try to make a good build (instead of just making a build on my ncix that lets me complete an event), I perform much better than in Clan mechs, because of that sweet, sweet duration, and dph.

Clan weapons and engines weigh less, and clan DHS takes less slots, so by default you are able to take more DHS compared to IS mechs which is where the heat difference is made up.

Edited by Rydiak, 30 July 2018 - 09:58 AM.

[Abaddun]

-Spectre, on 30 July 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

Can I pick duration and heat? Like IS? I don't really play IS much, but when I do, and actually try to make a good build (instead of just making a build on my ncix that lets me complete an event), I perform much better than in Clan mechs, because of that sweet, sweet duration, and dph.

IS laser builds heavier then a Warhammer a simply not viable. IS are caught in a vicious tradeoff between cooling and weapons, take too many weapons, and the famed IS DPS means bugger all, but take too many heatsinks, and you lack the raw damage/ton clanners enjoy(and like to forget) at which point your build becomes inferior to a ballistic boat. Have you noticed all the meta IS mechs are running ballistics? Funnily enough, the same mechs being nerfed in this patch.

Essentially, clan laser traits are more favourable to the niche lasers fill, pinpoint high alpha at the expense of a long cooldown.

[1stimpact]

Abaddun, on 30 July 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

You can't have your cake and eat it Clanners, you've got to decide which you prefer; range, damage or duration. You can't have all three.

Can't have all three? Well that's only looking at weapon's. Clans are fragile AF and cam't always change parts of there equipment (forced heatsinks, JJs, engines, masc, armour types, heatsink types), don't get nearly as much quirks or lack of quirks with omni swaps, and out right some mechs like Executioner and Gargoyle are heavily lacking in weapon hardpoints or space for them to mount them.

I don't agree with PGI's outlook on the laser nerf, too many clan mechs are by design laser boats and these heavy handed tweaks will out right trash tier a good majority of clan mechs.

And IS can have it's own trifecta of Armour, Ballistic's dominance, and quirks for days. Most mechs in Clan tech don't get quirks, unless they have outright performance issues (which are usually 8/8 omni pod locked) and compared to IS counterparts are less intense (because we are more fragile). The Ballistics gameplay between the two is heavily favouring IS, yes Clan gauss is great, but any IS with H.Gauss will blow clan armour off Period, Dire wolf with max armour is one double H.gauss to a center crit. RAC's are worse, no clan mech gets anything to compare to this monster, these dakka monsters can be boated on many med frames and on there own can heavily push any poke before you return fire or outright kill any exposed mech. And the shear volume of IS mech that are "bad" means quirks are given out much more frequently; granted more mech means more likely to quirk but there is a large variety to there quirks that clans don't get because of our stronger weapons.

We need good lasers because of our laser mechs, but we can't have them even though IS gets armour, ballistics, and quirks.
And none of this rant covers gameplay modes. If clans get a laser nerf then they're going to be near impossible to mid/ front line. Look at any Clan Mech with more then 2 laser hard points and it will be severly lacking in the firepower to keep the IS tanks even mildly afraid.

Clan firepower was and is the check to the tanky IS.

[Daurock]

1stimpact, on 30 July 2018 - 11:04 AM, said:

Clan firepower was and is the check to the tanky IS.

They have alluded to "Tanky IS" not being a desire for them. They've stated that they want to start removing IS Armor quirks, rather than baking them into nearly every IS mech. Reduce some of those quirks, and you'll very quickly find that SRM/LBX Clan Brawlers can compete with IS ones. (If you want to see how they do on the PTS, hop into a Mad Cat 2 with twin LB20, quad A-SRM6, and watch how fast you shred the annis and fafnirs.) Keep in mind though, that that kind of Armor reduction means that Clan Laser-based builds (Like the deathstrike, or pretty much any Clan heavy running HLL+ERML) will start wrecking IS mechs if they remain-as-is. One change doesn't happen without the other. (Because, yes, on live, clan Laser+Gauss firepower keeps IS armor in check.)

Now, that doesn't mean that I'm a fan of the changes on this PTS server. I do think Clan lasers need a pretty significant nerf to work towards the stated "remove IS armor quirks" goal, but the one currently being tested has too little effect when using clan lasers vs. Large targets, (I.E. it's still pretty easy to keep a full burn on an assault mech) and too much effect when using or being shot at by a light, making lasers mostly useless for light and medium mechs.

My personal preference would be closer to the first PTS, where IS and clan lasers brought Similar alpha, with the same duration differences as on live. (Instead of the massive difference on PTS2) However, I'd also further reduce the Heat of clan weaponry to a level where they have a Sustained DPS advantage over their IS counterparts. That would serve to both (1) Curb the power of the Larger Alpha Pokers, and (2) Put an actual buff on the smaller clan mechs, which is where they actually need one. A Clan light or medium would then basically have a mech with similar alpha, slightly longer burn time, and run cooler, providing better sustained damage when compared to its IS counterpart. Once the firepower is roughly even between sides, then one can go about changing the quirks.

Edited by Daurock, 30 July 2018 - 12:04 PM.

[PobbestGob]

Abaddun, on 30 July 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

IS laser builds heavier then a Warhammer a simply not viable. IS are caught in a vicious tradeoff between cooling and weapons, take too many weapons, and the famed IS DPS means bugger all, but take too many heatsinks, and you lack the raw damage/ton clanners enjoy(and like to forget) at which point your build becomes inferior to a ballistic boat. Have you noticed all the meta IS mechs are running ballistics? Funnily enough, the same mechs being nerfed in this patch.

Essentially, clan laser traits are more favourable to the niche lasers fill, pinpoint high alpha at the expense of a long cooldown.

There aren't very many mechs heavier than a Warhammer even capable of running laser vom. You've got the Black Knight, which is a great laser boat. Battlemaster, which is great for FP, suffers from bad hitboxes for QP, Banshee which pairs gauss and lasers very well for brawling. The only bads left are the Annihilator and Awesome, which arguably have better roles (Awesome for PPC and the other annis are simply better than the -1E). There's no problem here. You see IS running all of hgauss, mrm, mpls, uacs, ac, srm, etc because those are all great choices for them right now. Clan only has a few lasers and gauss, with the occasional dakka if they can boat enough to be worthwhile. It would be nice to see improvements to spls, ersmalls, c-srm, all the good options clan used to have. And some we didn't (c-ac anyone?). Clan has been turning into a pile of boring and useless while IS mechs are still viable and fun to play.