20 replies to this topic

[Ace_of_Blades]

I'm just interested in how people organize their units in combat. In other words, how do you guys play as a team?


Lance breakdown:

2 Brawlers - Lance Commander (LC) and Second in command
1 Medium range/Brawler (Mrange) - third in command, must be ready to brawl
1 Support by Fire (SBF) - Either Drop Commander (DC) or 4th in command

Because the brawlers will be at the point of most friction, the primary combat leader should be involved so that they can make targeting calls and critical decisions based upon the combat environment. Having the Drop Commander as the SBF and at longer range allows them to read the overall battlefield and position mechs where required.

Target Prioritization:

Brawlers and Mrangers target weakest/easiest to strongest/hardest
SBF targets Strongest/hardest to weakest/easiest

As the other three mechs are actively engaging weak targets to remove them quickly from direct combat, the SBF engages critically dangerous mechs, usually with LRMs, to force them to find cover, withdraw, ect. This keeps the assaults and heavies from shooting into the actively engaged Brawlers/Mrangers.

Lance Movement:

Diamond:
Positioning each mech at the points of the diamond, this allows for open fields of fire and visibility while moving towards potential combat. It also allows for expedient movement with open paths in any direction. This is used when the majority of target locations are unknown. It is advised to put the SBF at the rear of this formation.


Online:
Positioning each mech at the flanks of one another allows for the majority of fire to the front. Lance leaders may choose to place their SBFs behind the line for protection and to observe the flanks if necessary. This is used when the majority of enemy targets are known and contact is imminent.


(Staggered) Column:
Aligning the mechs in a zig zag fashion equidistant from one another allows the majority of fire to the flanks and can collapse into an online formation if necessary when contact is made. Again positioning the SBF at the rear.


Communication:
Communication should prioritize the DC then the LC. The LC will actively call critical targets while the DC makes movement commands to the LCs.

DC example:
"Lance one, break contact and move to grid echo 5 to support Lance Two's right flank."

LC Example:
"Break contact to echo 5, diamond formation, new target: Alpha Stormcrow, crit left torso"



notes:
I've noticed nobody takes time to identify whether the incoming volley of missiles are LRM 5s or 20s. This means that builds which are able to conduct rapid volleys at a sustained rate can easily suppress dangerous mechs from maneuvering through elevated terrain.

Similarly, if an enemy is focused away, they also are less aware at the size of ballistic projectiles from UACs. High volumes of UAC 2 fire from distance commands the attention of any enemy targets.

If you encounter an enemy force that is unaware of you, initiating contact with lasers from the flanks or rear may be advisable. Considering the quietness of lasers and their duration, it may give the lance a chance to do damage before you start engaging with a seemingly more violent approach.

ECMs, if allocated, should be located with the Brawling element to either defeat enemy ECMs or to allow for a stealthy ingress/egress.

Damaged Lancemates who are the enemies primary target may need to break contact, find cover, and maneuver to the opposite side of the formation. This forces the enemy to prioritize a non critical target and it keeps the Lancemate from becoming isolated from the Lance.


That's all I can think of that my group employs regularly with great effect. Anyone have anything else?

[creativeabyss]

SoP for g-nx

DC-see that guy over there?
unitmates- "yes" yes" "the arctic cheetah?" "no you idiot, the kodiak" "yes" "what game is this?" "yes" "roger" "yes" "yes"
DC-make him and everyone near him stop existing
unit mates "roger"
DC- FOOOOoooOOOKKKING CHAAAAAARRRRGGGGGEEEEEEE

[Xaat Xuun]

too many variables to have just one idealistic lance of builds and tactics

mech choices are usually decided on Map and Mode.
Movement is decided on who you're up against

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

Xaat Xuun, on 01 August 2018 - 03:09 PM, said:

too many variables to have just one idealistic lance of builds and tactics

mech choices are usually decided on Map and Mode.
Movement is decided on who you're up against

Yeah you can stipple out your plans all you want once you drop and the enemy does things that don't correspond to what you wanted them to do that plan get's removed and a new one comes in.
Real question is: is the caller and the rest of the team able to adapt to the new situation or not?

[Ace_of_Blades]

Sorry for the double post.

Alexandra Hekmatyar, on 01 August 2018 - 03:20 PM, said:

Yeah you can stipple out your plans all you want once you drop and the enemy does things that don't correspond to what you wanted them to do that plan get's removed and a new one comes in.
Real question is: is the caller and the rest of the team able to adapt to the new situation or not?

This is just a framework. There are many alternatives that one can take and I didn't even talk about the actual maneuvering such as suppressing targets to allow a lance to maneuver onto the flanks, or egress or whatever. It is absolutely critical that every person is able to process and act upon processed information quickly and properly. The reason for setting up a basic SOP or TTP is so that in the event individuals are unable to process and act quickly enough to unfolding situations, they can default to what works a lot of the time. It allows people more mental room to think so that shot callers and teammates can make more optimal decisions faster. The reason for it's simplistic style is BECAUSE of the many variables that come through in game, you simply cannot proceduralize combat in any form, but you can get people reading off the same sheet of extremely basic music.

[Xaat Xuun]

you will want each wave to have as close to same fire power and weight, a few acceptations of knowledgeable pilots that can do something different that works with the rest.

why would you have a mix of Brawl teamed up with range, on a range map. on some maps , those range cannot support the Brawls. and that is the job of the Range mechs.

I may just be reading into you query wrong.

not saying your choice is wrong, it really depends on the Map/Mode/Opponent
agree . . the most main factor is, the team listening, and aware of the situation

first key part, is to have a selection of mechs to choose from.

Edited by Xaat Xuun, 01 August 2018 - 05:01 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

SOP? 12 mechs, shoot the others.

Long as you have range synergy. Move together, don't go into a choke point alone (if you must).
Sometimes you will need tactics to counter the enemy but just do that on the fly.

TBH what the OP has posted is like, waaaaay over complicating things. Even in the toughest of matches I've drop called against the best teams FP has to offer (and I've got more experience than most), that level of management simply isn't required. Too much will actually hurt, which is what that suggestion overall is.



Unless you're one of the gen-rush units, then you just aim for the intimate objects and only those.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 01 August 2018 - 07:18 PM.

[Appogee]

Wow. Seems super organised.

In MJ12 we just stay aggressive, and rely on our pilots' skill, experience and mutual unselfishness to carry the day. When we're in a tight spot, a drop caller may step up and help us re-position and focus fire.

Sometimes for funsies we decide to all take one particular flavour of Mech, or ensure we have a couple of Lights capping in Conquest matches, etc. Nothing too complicated.

Edited by Appogee, 01 August 2018 - 06:34 PM.

[S O L A I S]

Well first off if you have a good team a drop caller is not necessary. If Ash is on your team though, just go with it as he is Aussie and generally pissed out of his gourd which means Urbie rushes are imminent and hilarious conversations about the finer points of Australian sausages.

This game though and how it plays out is not like actual warfare where tightly coordinated movement is necessary. It is more akin to sports (esports you say, gasp!!!) where individuals play their positions and everybody should be communicating as needed.

There are some strategies in CW such as light rushing, full cap strats, objective rushing, and some you don't see as much any more (thank God) camping a fortified position such as the old centre point in Terra which is now off to the side in H8, H9 area as an example.

Split pushes, which are not really that big anymore are pretty much the only time you have a lance they may need an individual to sort of lead a small group within a bigger one. Or you may have a guy calling for a lance when you are capping.

The other thing is in CW you'd never want a lance to be set up like you describe. Outside of conquest or the dreaded incursion, you for the vast majority of drops bring your heaviest to lightest mechs. Maybe you have some guys with range doing overwatch (common on Grim Plexus for instance) but never would you have that broken down and with your lance.

I guess though as far as movement and formation goes, you want people to corner effectively which means not one at a time and swinging wide around the person at the edge of the corner, not single file. Trying to form a concave as much as possible or firing lane with flankers/backstabbers.

Lastly back to communication...it must be as simple, clear, and with the minimum amount of talking as possible. Short simple messages allow for quicker reaction to the information. That looks a little like "Battlemaster, Charlie, left torso, Hotel 5". Immediately that lets people know who, where, and what (too shoot that is). Number of missiles coming from a target isn't something you need to tell people, however you see a dual heavy gauss mech generally you'd call out and prioritize it based on threat.

[Ace_of_Blades]

justcallme A S H, on 01 August 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

SOP? 12 mechs, shoot the others.

Long as you have range synergy. Move together, don't go into a choke point alone (if you must).
Sometimes you will need tactics to counter the enemy but just do that on the fly.

TBH what the OP has posted is like, waaaaay over complicating things. Even in the toughest of matches I've drop called against the best teams FP has to offer (and I've got more experience than most), that level of management simply isn't required. Too much will actually hurt, which is what that suggestion overall is.



Unless you're one of the gen-rush units, then you just aim for the intimate objects and only those.

I think you're missing that this is just what we do, I just ended up putting it in writing. It's not like we train daily to accomplish strict maneuvers and everything is situational.

S O L A I S, on 01 August 2018 - 11:36 PM, said:

Well first off if you have a good team a drop caller is not necessary. If Ash is on your team though, just go with it as he is Aussie and generally pissed out of his gourd which means Urbie rushes are imminent and hilarious conversations about the finer points of Australian sausages.

This game though and how it plays out is not like actual warfare where tightly coordinated movement is necessary. It is more akin to sports (esports you say, gasp!!!) where individuals play their positions and everybody should be communicating as needed.

There are some strategies in CW such as light rushing, full cap strats, objective rushing, and some you don't see as much any more (thank God) camping a fortified position such as the old centre point in Terra which is now off to the side in H8, H9 area as an example.

Split pushes, which are not really that big anymore are pretty much the only time you have a lance they may need an individual to sort of lead a small group within a bigger one. Or you may have a guy calling for a lance when you are capping.

The other thing is in CW you'd never want a lance to be set up like you describe. Outside of conquest or the dreaded incursion, you for the vast majority of drops bring your heaviest to lightest mechs. Maybe you have some guys with range doing overwatch (common on Grim Plexus for instance) but never would you have that broken down and with your lance.

I guess though as far as movement and formation goes, you want people to corner effectively which means not one at a time and swinging wide around the person at the edge of the corner, not single file. Trying to form a concave as much as possible or firing lane with flankers/backstabbers.

Lastly back to communication...it must be as simple, clear, and with the minimum amount of talking as possible. Short simple messages allow for quicker reaction to the information. That looks a little like "Battlemaster, Charlie, left torso, Hotel 5". Immediately that lets people know who, where, and what (too shoot that is). Number of missiles coming from a target isn't something you need to tell people, however you see a dual heavy gauss mech generally you'd call out and prioritize it based on threat.

Good comment, this was the kind of discussion I was looking for.. So would you say that you engage then highest threat to lowest threat respectively?

I agree that you don't want to ALWAYS bring a lance the way I described. It's not a preset thing. It's a location during movement so that guys go "I brought an LRM boat, where should I stand?". Obviously an experienced player will know where to stand, but a new guy may be overwhelmed by the situation and may need to default.

Edited by Saber of Eden, 02 August 2018 - 04:56 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Saber of Eden, on 02 August 2018 - 04:42 AM, said:

I think you're missing that this is just what we do, I just ended up putting it in writing. It's not like we train daily to accomplish strict maneuvers and everything is situational.

And I'm just giving you feedback as a very experienced player. I mean I've played with and against some of the best teams MWO has to offer FP/Comp etc and I can tell you none of them go that far as to keep a 'diamond' or other formations or anything like that. In the real world game that just isn't viable.

If you are doing all of that the I would strongly suggest you simplify it, a lot. Over-complication is a sure-fire way to make it extremely hard to win. Rotating armour / peeling is really, all you need to do/be aware of in MWO and shoot the target infront of you. Sending mechs off to chase other targets, more often than not, exposes them to unnecessary fire. Seen many Drop Callers make this mistake.


Also I can't see you on any leaderboards. How often do you play?
I've played with and against some of the best teams MWO has to offer and I can tell you none of them go that far as to keep a 'diamond formation' or anything like that.

[Ace_of_Blades]

justcallme A S H, on 02 August 2018 - 05:33 AM, said:

And I'm just giving you feedback as a very experienced player. I mean I've played with and against some of the best teams MWO has to offer FP/Comp etc and I can tell you none of them go that far as to keep a 'diamond' or other formations or anything like that. In the real world game that just isn't viable.

If you are doing all of that the I would strongly suggest you simplify it, a lot. Over-complication is a sure-fire way to make it extremely hard to win. Rotating armour / peeling is really, all you need to do/be aware of in MWO and shoot the target infront of you. Sending mechs off to chase other targets, more often than not, exposes them to unnecessary fire. Seen many Drop Callers make this mistake.


Also I can't see you on any leaderboards. How often do you play?
I've played with and against some of the best teams MWO has to offer and I can tell you none of them go that far as to keep a 'diamond formation' or anything like that.

Using a diamond formation isn't overcomplicating if it's just something your guys are already doing naturally.

I used to play often but for the last year or so, I've had real world stuff to take care of. Um, I'm not sure I ever said that I sent mechs off to chase targets. Was that stated anywhere?

Edited by Saber of Eden, 02 August 2018 - 05:50 AM.

[Leone]

Xaat Xuun, on 01 August 2018 - 04:05 PM, said:

why would you have a mix of Brawl teamed up with range, on a range map. on some maps , those range cannot support the Brawls. and that is the job of the Range mechs.

Not quite. If you have the team ball up and move together the ranged mechs can stand off and draw fire/poke to distract the enemy or try an keep em in place trading. They're also great at counter sniping whilst the team moves into brawl. Let's face it, we tend to shoot the guys shooting us, so if the first few mechs at the front of a ball are shooting you with range, they're the ones you fire on. Then when the murder ball gets to you they can peel an let the brawlers loose.

Anyways, I let ya'll in on Kell's Commandos secret to success for positioning. If there's teammate in front of you, move up. If your at the fore, and hurt more'n your mates, peel. Keep it simple.

~Leone.

[Ace_of_Blades]

That's a good way to do it Leone, what I don't think people are understanding is that these formations are rarely held so rigidly if ever in direct combat. I think we all have been in a situation where your Lance suddenly started getting hit, and everyone just turned into a ball of stupid, blocking people's movements and fields of fire. These formations are intended to relieve the issue. Since a lot of my guys are trained in similar ways either from the military or other backgrounds, it's essentially stupid to train that away because it's "too complicated". We don't play enough to be on the leaderboards because we are very busy with our jobs. I don't necessarily believe that someone who is on the leaderboards is indisputably better than any one else at team play or leadership.

[Hal Greaves]

Saber of Eden, on 02 August 2018 - 07:13 AM, said:

That's a good way to do it Leone, what I don't think people are understanding is that these formations are rarely held so rigidly if ever in direct combat. I think we all have been in a situation where your Lance suddenly started getting hit, and everyone just turned into a ball of stupid, blocking people's movements and fields of fire. These formations are intended to relieve the issue. Since a lot of my guys are trained in similar ways either from the military or other backgrounds, it's essentially stupid to train that away because it's "too complicated". We don't play enough to be on the leaderboards because we are very busy with our jobs. I don't necessarily believe that someone who is on the leaderboards is indisputably better than any one else at team play or leadership.

We don't use formations or anything like that because of the very nature of battlemechs and how they work.

Generally speaking we have a mix of mechs that, for the most part, accomplish a task and also fit the "playstyle" of the group while being effectively a preference for anybody in the team as well. Since we're all specialists our team leans back more on individual skill and intuition than any formation or actual strategy, which gives us a huge amount more flexibility.

The only real "strategy" might be calling out positions and what have you, like for example Vitric. Some of us will "go up top" so to speak and we'll say we are going up there.. But what we actually take up top is largely dependent on preference. I like taking a UAC10 Hunchback up there.. others like taking ATMs. Some like taking LRMs.. Some want gauss-ERLL Night Gyrs. It's all in preference there, with the understanding that movement is required to keep pressure on the enemy from all the various angles you can keep pressure on them from.

Kinda hard to explain our playstyle in general, we just all happen to be on the same brainwave for the most part, most of the time.

[tacorodwarrior]

Wait....... Ash, please do not tell me you like Australian Sausage? You can get nice tasty Irish Sausage over there so readily now and it actually tastes nice.

[Brauer]

Hal Greaves, on 02 August 2018 - 08:29 AM, said:

We don't use formations or anything like that because of the very nature of battlemechs and how they work.

Generally speaking we have a mix of mechs that, for the most part, accomplish a task and also fit the "playstyle" of the group while being effectively a preference for anybody in the team as well. Since we're all specialists our team leans back more on individual skill and intuition than any formation or actual strategy, which gives us a huge amount more flexibility.

The only real "strategy" might be calling out positions and what have you, like for example Vitric. Some of us will "go up top" so to speak and we'll say we are going up there.. But what we actually take up top is largely dependent on preference. I like taking a UAC10 Hunchback up there.. others like taking ATMs. Some like taking LRMs.. Some want gauss-ERLL Night Gyrs. It's all in preference there, with the understanding that movement is required to keep pressure on the enemy from all the various angles you can keep pressure on them from.

Kinda hard to explain our playstyle in general, we just all happen to be on the same brainwave for the most part, most of the time.

I like your point about personal intuition and experience taking over. That's generally what we depend on as well. Of course we also call targets and call pushes to try to avoid one person running in alone. I don't know if other MJ12s listen, but I also like to let folks know when I have their back. Timidity loses games, and I think if the point person knows that someone is with them it can give a push more momentum. I especially do this if someone is moving to flank, or otherwise breaking from the group to cause some havoc.

Edit: spelling is hard

Edited by Brauer, 02 August 2018 - 10:06 AM.

[Ace_of_Blades]

Hal Greaves, on 02 August 2018 - 08:29 AM, said:

We don't use formations or anything like that because of the very nature of battlemechs and how they work.

Generally speaking we have a mix of mechs that, for the most part, accomplish a task and also fit the "playstyle" of the group while being effectively a preference for anybody in the team as well. Since we're all specialists our team leans back more on individual skill and intuition than any formation or actual strategy, which gives us a huge amount more flexibility.

The only real "strategy" might be calling out positions and what have you, like for example Vitric. Some of us will "go up top" so to speak and we'll say we are going up there.. But what we actually take up top is largely dependent on preference. I like taking a UAC10 Hunchback up there.. others like taking ATMs. Some like taking LRMs.. Some want gauss-ERLL Night Gyrs. It's all in preference there, with the understanding that movement is required to keep pressure on the enemy from all the various angles you can keep pressure on them from.

Kinda hard to explain our playstyle in general, we just all happen to be on the same brainwave for the most part, most of the time.

I agree with just about everything you say. I guess the way I made it sound is as if we rigidly adhere to these SOPs and such. We just happen to consistently roll with that kind of lance breakdown, Faction Play and otherwise. I'm interested though, what about the nature of battlemechs makes you believe formations prior to contact are unnecessary or detrimental?

[S O L A I S]

Saber of Eden, on 02 August 2018 - 04:42 AM, said:

Good comment, this was the kind of discussion I was looking for.. So would you say that you engage then highest threat to lowest threat respectively?

I agree that you don't want to ALWAYS bring a lance the way I described. It's not a preset thing. It's a location during movement so that guys go "I brought an LRM boat, where should I stand?". Obviously an experienced player will know where to stand, but a new guy may be overwhelmed by the situation and may need to default.

I'd say that you want people to call out and prioritize threats such Anni's or anything with dual heavy gauss, and Piranhas or in certain situations narcing lights get immediate attention and priority.

As far as where to stand, I don't think anyone does that really other than pointing out to buddies good spots they found.

I can say that since IS has more people playing on their side right now, we have been Clan for the better part of a couple of weeks. So movement wise choosing areas on the map where you can 'fade' back and kite the IS has been what we've been calling and planning for. That also means avoiding getting caught in areas with buildings or tight quarters. That is more of what goes on in the groups I run full of BCMC and Evil guys.

[Hal Greaves]

Saber of Eden, on 02 August 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:

I'm interested though, what about the nature of battlemechs makes you believe formations prior to contact are unnecessary or detrimental?

It's more the nature of the game and the map. Since we've been playing for so long we have a very general idea of where the enemy SHOULD be, depending on what they've taken and what they might potentially have, so we can prepare ourselves immediately to either push or receive. The battlefields are honestly too small to really even bother with formations or anything really sophisticated or advanced setup.. Better to call where they are, where they might be, what they might do and rely on everybody doing what they are supposed to do accordingly, which is how we mostly function.