154 replies to this topic

[Vellron2005]

@The6thMessanger - as I don't want to get into a long dragged out flame war with a brick wall.. I'm just gonna ignore most of that.

The only thing I will say however, is that if top-tier tryhards really wanted to make LRMs better, they would not be posting ideas that defeat the core purpose of LRMs, and keep trying to turn them into ATMs.

Most of the suggestions I've seen from the "it crowd" say that LRMs need to discourage Indirect fire and make them more direct fire.

This is basically turning them into ATMs, and defeating their purpose.

A lover of LRMs like myself would not like that..

I keep saying LRMs are fine.. not because I want to stay at my level of play, or play badly, or whatever you accused me of there, I do it because I don't want to see LRMs nerfed to oblivion.

Half the fun of playing LRMs was already taken away when the lock-on arcs were nerfed from 45% to 20%, and the noble art of LRM bending was beheaded. Let us keep the fun we have left, huh?

P.S.

Don't you ever, EVER again compare me, or ANYONE to Honey Boo Boo... jeeeeeez.. that's an insult of the highest order!

And thanks for the podcast link..

Edited by Vellron2005, 08 August 2018 - 02:03 AM.

[Rafe Yomin]

Savage Wolf, on 08 August 2018 - 01:21 AM, said:

You can always share targets in lore, no special equipment required and as long as we don't see the map before selecting mechs in QP, we don't need more convoluted ways of using weapon systems, when there are weapons that require none.

Well, technically in lore, almost all mechs have TC's (those which are used by most mercs and militaries anyway. The more you get to the edge of the IS, the worse they get generally speaking). The ones with the better electronics suites are better at it. Something like a repurposed agromech won't have that and will have to aim the way the barbarians used to, by aiming instead of targeting.

Edited by Rafe Yomin, 08 August 2018 - 01:51 AM.

[jjm1]

I propose lasers can lock on with line of sight from any team member and curve over buildings. If LRMs are so fun to play against, this will be surely be double the fun!!

[The6thMessenger]

Vellron2005, on 08 August 2018 - 01:50 AM, said:

@The6thMessanger - as I don't want to [Redacted] I'm just gonna ignore most of that.

[Redacted]

Vellron2005, on 08 August 2018 - 01:50 AM, said:

The only thing I will say however, is that if top-tier tryhards really wanted to make LRMs better, they would not be posting ideas that defeat the core purpose of LRMs, and keep trying to turn them into ATMs.

Well, the problem is inherent on the Indirect Fire, dafuq do you think we're going to do about it? Double down?

Vellron2005, on 08 August 2018 - 01:50 AM, said:

Most of the suggestions I've seen from the "it crowd" say that LRMs need to discourage Indirect fire and make them more direct fire.

This is basically turning them into ATMs, and defeating their purpose.

That's because, their purpose being Indirect-Fire is exactly why they are terrible.

Vellron2005, on 08 August 2018 - 01:50 AM, said:

A lover of LRMs like myself would not like that..

Sure.

Vellron2005, on 08 August 2018 - 01:50 AM, said:

I keep saying LRMs are fine.. not because I want to stay at my level of play, or play badly, or whatever you accused me of there, I do it because I don't want to see LRMs nerfed to oblivion.

But they are bad, no amount of lying to yourself can change that. Hell, PGI is planning on nerfing them right now. You think your effort to lie that they are fine worked?

Vellron2005, on 08 August 2018 - 01:50 AM, said:

Half the fun of playing LRMs was already taken away when the lock-on arcs were nerfed from 45% to 20%, and the noble art of LRM bending was beheaded. Let us keep the fun we have left, huh?

Fun that we have left? Really? PGI was trying to hear from us, from what we think about the balance.

[Redacted]

Vellron2005, on 08 August 2018 - 01:50 AM, said:

Don't you ever, EVER again compare me, or ANYONE to Honey Boo Boo... jeeeeeez.. that's an insult of the highest order!

[Redacted]

Edited by Tina Benoit, 10 August 2018 - 10:48 AM.
nonconstructive/insults

[Kroete]

Chris Lowrey, on 07 August 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:

No TAG nerf for August.

As said, this pass is focused on the ease of use and the force multipliers, but this does not mean we are against further changes. So feel free to discuss. As Paul has said in a previous podcast, only so far I'm allowed to push a month on certain things. So we aren't ruling out that we may see further changes to LRMs in the future.

You have the numbers. How many of players of a team take ams at average?
If there are less then 50% of the players taking that easy and lightwheigt counter, it seems lrms are still not powerfull enough. Nerfing a weapon where a counter exists but the people dont take the counter seems wrong.
So please tell us, how many players are taking ams!?

The last changes, despite the speed buff, were all nerfs for skillfull usement.
The changes catered to more tubes, more ammo, more spam, less skill and staying futher away.
Before the artemis and arc nerf, lrms only needed the speedbuff to make them ok.

Edited by Kroete, 08 August 2018 - 02:32 AM.

[Vellron2005]

Kroete, on 08 August 2018 - 02:23 AM, said:

You have the numbers. How many of players of a team take ams at average?
If there are less then 50% of the players taking that easy and lightwheigt counter, it seems lrms are still not powerfull enough. Nerfing a weapon where a counter exists but the people dont take the counter seems wrong.
So please tell us, how many players are taking ams!?

The last changes, despite the speed buff, were all nerfs for skillfull usement.
The changes catered to more tubes, more ammo, more spam, less skill and staying futher away.
Before the artemis and arc nerf, lrms only needed the speedbuff to make them ok.

Personally, I only have a few kitfoxes and novas with AMS, and I use them solely for events and when I feel like trolling other Lurmers.

I don't usually run AMS on almost anything, and still rarely die to LRMs, even when playing brawlers. I almost never die to LRMs when playing LRM boats, but often do kill other LRM boats when doing so.

So I agree, nerfing LRMs because people don't use the counters is wrong.

Also, agreed that all LRMs needed before arc nerf was speed. Hindsight is 20/20.

[Ghogiel]

Narc should just have health. So when the LRMs dmg the narc enough it's destroyed.

[Savage Wolf]

Ghogiel, on 08 August 2018 - 04:06 AM, said:

Narc should just have health. So when the LRMs dmg the narc enough it's destroyed.

We had that once and it was stupid back then and it's stupid now.

I would rather they just removed the poorly designed maps where Narc is OP, like Polar Highlands, since on most maps Narc is underwhelming.

[Ghogiel]

Savage Wolf, on 08 August 2018 - 04:09 AM, said:

We had that once and it was stupid back then and it's stupid now.

I would rather they just removed the poorly designed maps where Narc is OP, like Polar Highlands, since on most maps Narc is underwhelming.

No, that's stupid to remove maps and limit map design across a whole game because a niche weap system is broken.


It's a good mechanic as well. Having health is just an upper limit threshold on the equipments effectiveness. Which is where it's problem is. Right now you can take unlimited amount of dmg from low skill indirect lock on weapons, and narcing is so ******* easy with no downside and little exposure.

[Vellron2005]

Savage Wolf, on 08 August 2018 - 04:09 AM, said:

We had that once and it was stupid back then and it's stupid now.

I would rather they just removed the poorly designed maps where Narc is OP, like Polar Highlands, since on most maps Narc is underwhelming.

Removing maps, or changing them to counter LRMs and affiliated things, would be terrible. It would kill the weapon system.

And if anyone thinks NARC is OP, then clearly they don't know that NARC is countered by ECM, and Cover. Also, did you know that NARC will only stick to the target about half the time? I've been know to hit huge assault mechs square in the CT with NARC, to no effect.

Also, NARCers also often have a tendency to narc half the enemy team, and then you get no effect of this, because the LRM boats will not use the narc to focus down a single target before it's in cover.. So it's like you popped a UAV.. we can see them, but that's about all the benefit..

And let's not forget the narcers that run off at beginning of the match, and have half the enemy team narced when it's assault LRM boats are barely out of spawn area, 2000 meters away.. super useful.

Edited by Vellron2005, 08 August 2018 - 05:08 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Ghogiel, on 08 August 2018 - 04:19 AM, said:

No, that's stupid to remove maps and limit map design across a whole game because a niche weap system is broken.

It's a good mechanic as well. Having health is just an upper limit threshold on the equipments effectiveness. Which is where it's problem is. Right now you can take unlimited amount of dmg from low skill indirect lock on weapons, and narcing is so ******* easy with no downside and little exposure.

Limit map design? HAH!

I would never call a flat map with hardly anything in it, map design. Oh how dreadful that the map designers are forced to make maps that actually fits the game it is built for. The agony.

Most of the problems presented in this thread are exclusively a problem on the open maps like Polar Highlands and Alpine. Maybe fix the maps instead of ruining a game mechanic of the game. But then again it would fit the pattern of the game becoming more and more only about skirmish in a deathball with direct fire. God forbid there were other options.

[Savage Wolf]

Vellron2005, on 08 August 2018 - 05:06 AM, said:

Removing maps, or changing them to counter LRMs and affiliated things, would be terrible. It would kill the weapon system.

Why? Right now we can apparently not make the weapon system viable since that would make it OP on a few maps and then people argue that we should balance the weapon so it's ok on those few maps and ignore that it would then be garbage on all other maps.

Clearly it is the maps that needs fixing and not the weapon system. Once the maps are fixed, we can properly balance NARC without certain maps making it too powerful or not powerful enough.

[Vellron2005]

Savage Wolf, on 08 August 2018 - 05:10 AM, said:

Most of the problems presented in this thread are exclusively a problem on the open maps like Polar Highlands and Alpine. Maybe fix the maps instead of ruining a game mechanic of the game.

Well if we're gonna look at it like that, then they must also fix Rubellite and Solaris City.. To make them more LRM friendly.. Would not be fair to take away without compensating..

And yes, god forbid any other option other than facehugging be available..

[Vellron2005]

Savage Wolf, on 08 August 2018 - 05:14 AM, said:

Why? Right now we can apparently not make the weapon system viable since that would make it OP on a few maps and then people argue that we should balance the weapon so it's ok on those few maps and ignore that it would then be garbage on all other maps.

Clearly it is the maps that needs fixing and not the weapon system. Once the maps are fixed, we can properly balance NARC without certain maps making it too powerful or not powerful enough.

It's not the weapon system's fault that people keep bringing a knife to a gunfight.. Or for that matter, bringing a gun to knife fight..

If you're gonna run an all-SRM build, and I'm gonna run a LRM boat, yeah, sometimes we're gonna be unprepared for the map conditions. That can be translated to ambushes and/or crashing behind enemy lines and such.

But I've been smashed in the face enough times on Polar to know that coming there in a LRM boat doesn't guarantee I'm not gonna get my face bashed in by an SRM brawler. Just that I'm gonna have a chance. The same chance he's gonna have when I bring a Lurm boat to Solaris city..

Edited by Vellron2005, 08 August 2018 - 05:20 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Vellron2005, on 08 August 2018 - 05:15 AM, said:

Well if we're gonna look at it like that, then they must also fix Rubellite and Solaris City.. To make them more LRM friendly.. Would not be fair to take away without compensating..

LRMs work fine on Rubellite. Solaris City yeah, is not that LRM friendly so yes it needs fixing too. But that is still a few maps compared to removing a whole game mechanic from the game.

And if not, just don't balance weapons based on the best map for the weapons. That would be like balancing lasers for use on Frozen City.

Alternatively, give us a lobby so we know what map we land on before choosing mech. Then it's alright to balance weapons based on the best map, because then I can actually bring it on the few maps where it's worth a damn and not bring it to the others.

Vellron2005, on 08 August 2018 - 05:15 AM, said:

And yes, god forbid any other option other than facehugging be available..

Yeah, that is what the game is turning into, sadly. And this would just be yet another step there.

[Ghogiel]

Savage Wolf, on 08 August 2018 - 05:14 AM, said:

Why? Right now we can apparently not make the weapon system viable since that would make it OP on a few maps and then people argue that we should balance the weapon so it's ok on those few maps and ignore that it would then be garbage on all other maps.

Clearly it is the maps that needs fixing and not the weapon system. Once the maps are fixed, we can properly balance NARC without certain maps making it too powerful or not powerful enough.

Need to remove those brawler focused or cold maps as well. Can't have weap types working better then others on a particular terrain type.

[Savage Wolf]

Vellron2005, on 08 August 2018 - 05:20 AM, said:

If you're gonna run an all-SRM build, and I'm gonna run a LRM boat, yeah, sometimes we're gonna be unprepared for the map conditions. That can be translated to ambushes and/or crashing behind enemy lines and such.

But I've been smashed in the face enough times on Polar to know that coming there in a LRM boat doesn't guarantee I'm not gonna get my face bashed in by an SRM brawler. Just that I'm gonna have a chance. The same chance he's gonna have when I bring a Lurm boat to Solaris city..

So because it is still possible for a brawler to win on Polar, there is no problem?

Guess that's it then. Balancing solved. If a weapon CAN win, it's balanced. Don't mind that other weapons win significantly more, because it still CAN. Same with maps and mechs.

[Vellron2005]

Savage Wolf, on 08 August 2018 - 05:25 AM, said:

LRMs work fine on Rubellite. Solaris City yeah, is not that LRM friendly so yes it needs fixing too. But that is still a few maps compared to removing a whole game mechanic from the game.

And if not, just don't balance weapons based on the best map for the weapons. That would be like balancing lasers for use on Frozen City.

Alternatively, give us a lobby so we know what map we land on before choosing mech. Then it's alright to balance weapons based on the best map, because then I can actually bring it on the few maps where it's worth a damn and not bring it to the others.


Yeah, that is what the game is turning into, sadly. And this would just be yet another step there.

Rubellite is not very LRM friendly, trust me..

I agree that we should be able to choose mech based on map, I've been saying it for years..

In fact, it's probably why LRMs work well in FP as opposed to QP as people are saying..

We may have stumbled upon something here

I think it could be done simply by letting us switch mech builds (now that we can save them), or change the mech chassis based on weight class (light for light, assault for assault).

That would not mess with the MM at all..

Savage Wolf, on 08 August 2018 - 05:30 AM, said:

So because it is still possible for a brawler to win on Polar, there is no problem?

Guess that's it then. Balancing solved. If a weapon CAN win, it's balanced. Don't mind that other weapons win significantly more, because it still CAN. Same with maps and mechs.

I was just saying that if somebody, instead of proper balancing, would remove or rework Polar because LRMs are OP there, then they should also rework maps where LRMs are useless..

Edited by Vellron2005, 08 August 2018 - 05:37 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Ghogiel, on 08 August 2018 - 05:25 AM, said:

Need to remove those brawler focused or cold maps as well. Can't have weap types working better then others on a particular terrain type.

Yeah...

Wait..

Brawler focused cold maps!? You had me dreaming there for a minute. Then I remembered that all cold maps are open terrain. There used to be Frozen City, but then they ****** it up. Ah, good times before that.

[The Mysterious Fox]

Savage Wolf, on 08 August 2018 - 05:33 AM, said:

Yeah...

Wait..

Brawler focused cold maps!? You had me dreaming there for a minute. Then I remembered that all cold maps are open terrain. There used to be Frozen City, but then they ****** it up. Ah, good times before that.

stick to the 7 line for a good time