45 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

(Thought I would post this here also.)



So I was thinking about this when reading the official thread on the changes. Really how many Clan mechs are enough of a problem that they make it so entire weapons systems need changed?

If they just fixed the worst perceived offenders would that be enough without affecting every clan mech even those that are not a problem or even under performing?

And if you did this what mechs would need some adjustment? Maybe the Mad Cat II, Hellbringer, Ebon, Piranha ... and a few more?

Just seems to me it would be easier to fix a few mechs that are a perceived problem than rebalance weapons, rebalance clan mechs and rebalance IS mechs,

And I say perceived problem not because I think some are not unbalanced but because perception is a large part of how people perceive if things are balanced or not. So believing things are balanced in some ways is more important than things really being perfectly balanced.

Thoughts?

[Brizna]

Annihilator! ... Oh wait....

[Jackal Noble]

XX Sulla XX, on 08 August 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:

And I say perceived problem not because I think some are not unbalanced but because perception is a large part of how people perceive if things are balanced or not. So believing things are balanced in some ways is more important than things really being perfectly balanced.

It is so much that.

[panzer1b]

Ill give my honest opinion on what 3 mechs are the most overpowerforming on both clam and IS that i actually own and thus can give an opinion based on piloting it and being shot by it as well (even if i really like all of said mechs alot, so this is coming from someone who mercilessly demolishes potatos using meta builds on said mechs).

#1 MCII-1/B/DS
Its really obvious why this thing is so broken, ideal hardpoints out of the box on a mech with decent hitboxes, workable agility, good tops speed, and full flexibility of being a battlemech and not a omni with locked engine (blood asp says hi). The last of which is actually the biggest deal, you can run your prefered loadoust and be able to 100% optimize the mech to suit your playstyle and since the hardpoints are already solid as they are, you do not sacrifice anything at all except the inability to have a single MCII run every single loadout you can imagine. Speaking of loadouts, the MCII-B can run the dreaded KDK3 build with better everything but raw armor values, and it has hand mounts allowing you to shift fire to different targets way quicker. As for the DS/1, both can run 80 alfa strike (DS gets 94 max, but even the 80 build is more optimized), while going almost 70kph, having good heat management (for a vomit mech), and even optional JJ if you really wanna waste tonnage on a gimmick. Its more alfa strike then anything reasonable (dire can beat that, but not practically), and it doesnt even pay any real price for that alfa strike unlike almost everything else which is either stupidly slow, turns like a barn, or has atrocious physical characteristics like hitboxes or hardpoint locations. Deathstrike is obviously more powerful (it has no downsides over the 1, not like any good loadouts use missile ears), but ill say that even the MCII-1 is stupidly strong in the right hands and can carry games like nothing else with proper positioning.

#2 Hellbringer
Not quite as broken as above, but its still in my opinion the strongest clam heavy at any sort of vomit playstyle since it can comfortably carry 60 alfa (which is just 25% less then a MCII-1), and it can carry enough DHS to sustain that fire in anything but a brawl (where the mech should never really be anyway). Its other stats are also above average, agility, speed, hardpoint locations, hitboxes (well the last isnt super, but its still above mechs like the ebon or timber with that CT that eats stray fire). Yeah it gets beaten at certain niches by other clam heavys, but its laser vomit loadouts are byfar some of the most versatile and effective you can get on a heavy mech, especially one that has the added bonus of ECM (not really useful at high levels of play, but in QP makes a huge difference in your ability to be ignored).

#3 Cyclops-S
In my opinion the king of broken, its got the most powerful loadout in the entire game (dual gauss+lasers), since it can puke out 50 hitscan PPFLD (may as well be at short range) with 0 noticeable heat generation until its ammo is depleted, all on a mech basically no weaknesses that cant be countered by a aware pilot. Its got very good hitboxes for side shielding, insane agility (better then many heavys), and acceptable top speed of ~60 with speed tweak. Its pretty much flat out pay to win (or in my case save up event MC to win), and no other mech can reliably 1v1 anything short of a anni with good consistency. Its so powerful that its just abotu the only mech id even consider going up against 2 targets at short range since it can 2 shot most mechs reliably (if it doesnt kill in 2 shots itll cripple them beyond combat capability). Really the ONLY thing keeping the HGR from being the king of weapons is the range limit, but if you manage to get it within 300m or a target it is gonna go away stupidly quick

Aside from that, i have a few mechs that i do absurdly well in, but overall these 3 are what i see are the kings of QP for me, since they all pack stupidly good firepower, can sustain that firepower, move fast enough to keep up with nascar 95% of the time, and just lack any real disadvantages that many mech in this game currently have.

Also a bit of a side note, i really do NOT feel that laser vomit itself is that powerful, its really all about the combo where multiple gausses are included where it becomes broken since you gain heat free DPS which happens to be PPFLD and very easy to land on target. Pure lasers are pretty much limited to ~5 DPS absolute maximum since you cant bring 50 DHS on any mech, and alfa strikes are in general limited to ~50-60 on conventional builds (you CAN bring 78 on a clam fatty, but you wont really be much use past that 1st shot which is very bad for agressive games). Dakka (if you use UACs), is far more effective and general purpose, and you can still get ~60 alfa strike with those weapons on things like the MCII-B or KDK3. Ive found myself winning alot more games with dakka heavy builds since you can still poke at mid range (clan UACs have good range), can brawl insanely well, and can sustain fire better then lasers. Im honestly against the whole nerf clan laser patch BS, all that does it make dakka the king of everything and all we will see are UAC boats in QP with occasional HGRs on IS as thats their strongest weapon right now.

[Y E O N N E]

Brizna, on 08 August 2018 - 02:15 PM, said:

Annihilator! ... Oh wait....

I get the joke but, also, was not ever a Clan 'Mech. Star League 'Mech, yes, but not Clan.

[El Bandito]

In general it is wiser to deal with the problematic mechs rather than the weapon system. But PGI knows that--we told them many times. They are just not caring very much.

[Flyby215]

XX Sulla XX, on 08 August 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:

(Thought I would post this here also.)



So I was thinking about this when reading the official thread on the changes. Really how many Clan mechs are enough of a problem that they make it so entire weapons systems need changed?

If they just fixed the worst perceived offenders would that be enough without affecting every clan mech even those that are not a problem or even under performing?

And if you did this what mechs would need some adjustment? Maybe the Mad Cat II, Hellbringer, Ebon, Piranha ... and a few more?

Just seems to me it would be easier to fix a few mechs that are a perceived problem than rebalance weapons, rebalance clan mechs and rebalance IS mechs,

And I say perceived problem not because I think some are not unbalanced but because perception is a large part of how people perceive if things are balanced or not. So believing things are balanced in some ways is more important than things really being perfectly balanced.

Thoughts?

*Sees end-game scores*
"Well of course that player had a high score, s/he's in a ________ ."

That's usually my marker if a mech is overperforming. If someone does well because of what I perceive to be an advantaged mech as opposed to the skill of the pilot, then in *my opinion* the mech needs a nerf.

High score Timberwolf, good pilot. High score Hellbringer, good mech. High score Piranha, good mech. High score Commando, really good pilot.

Kinda simplistic; but I'm a simple person.

[Jackal Noble]

Ya.... the commando. I hates the commando very much. I hates it.

[LordNothing]

all major clan-is balance issues comes down to erml not being in the same gh group as lpl and hll.

gauss vomit is another problem but not neccisarily strictly a clan problem. obviously if you get rid of that free synergy then no more gauss +erml+hll builds that can fire everything without a major heat problem. this puts is on top of the gauss vomit game or at least on equal footing. if its still a problem then do something like ghost charge to keep the weapons in check, by forcing you to either use chain fire or put up with really long charging. you can also relax the charge time on single gun configurations that shouldnt be nerfed at all and should actually be buffed. you can also handle other gauss configurations, charge time stacks with a penalty so you can do mixed gauss builds with different charge/fire profiles. you could also lift the charge limit by making the charging of multiple gauss rifles suck a lot.

Edited by LordNothing, 08 August 2018 - 09:07 PM.

[Racerxintegra2k]

Sitting on a 14.5 K/D with my Piranha (Pir-1) ... no other mech is remotely close to that for me.

[Bud Crue]

Any mech that it takes 12 mech more than 2 minutes to manage to hit is a problem...damn last Flea.

Seriously, in my casual group que playing perspective there are no mechs so problematic as to warrant across the board nerfs to entire weapons, classes of weapons or underlying game mechanics. None. Sure there are some mechs that give me the fidgets, Like the Piranah or the Flea. Or some mechs that insta gib me when I do something stupid like a Deathstrike or an Anni. But in the end, if there are outliers of performance (e.g. a Deathstrike vs the other MCIIs, or the Cyclops vs the Mauler, etc.) then the specific nature of the over performance should be clearly stated by PGI, confimed with the commmunity and then addressed with focus and specificity. Alas, that has never happened and it never will. Now you must excuse me, all this talk of problematic clan mechs has me feeling the need to fire up a Kodiak 5, the “energy monster” Russ once feared would dominate the game.

[Captain Caveman DE]

I honestly see little problems with any clanmechs. sure, some perform better than others, same is true for IS.
you gotta play both sides if you think clan or is is OP. grass is always greener..

example: sure, my madcat or hellbringer perform - but are rather brittle compared to my cyclops and warhammer, to pick sth similar on IS; I really don't prefer either side, just enjoy the different strengths of both.

[Brizna]

I think this thread's tittle is wrong and get s the discussion flowing in the wrong way. At this point there are mechs that are above all others but they are not necessarily clan mechs. My quick list of "OP" mechs would be:

Lights:
Piranha
Flea
Wolfhound

Medium:
Huntsman
Bushwacker

Heavy:
Hellbringer
A few good IS heavies but none "OP" imo.

Assault:
Cyclops
Mad Cat IIC
Annihilator

[Tiewolf]

First there are only some mechs with a very specific load out that preform in the given maps most of he time better then other mechs.

Yes there are significant more good clan mechs (all well known) then IS mechs. Good IS mechs have won the quirk lottery while most good clan mechs are good even without any quirks.
And by the way all HGauss builds have great disadvantage like a STD Engine and a mounted bomb in their torsos when the armor is stripped. The root of the problem is that with clan builds like lazervomit or laser/gauss there are no real disadvantages or risks that matter.

[Y E O N N E]

Brizna, on 09 August 2018 - 06:16 AM, said:

I think this thread's tittle is wrong and get s the discussion flowing in the wrong way. At this point there are mechs that are above all others but they are not necessarily clan mechs. My quick list of "OP" mechs would be:

Lights:
Piranha
Flea
Wolfhound

Medium:
Huntsman
Bushwacker

Heavy:
Hellbringer
A few good IS heavies but none "OP" imo.

Assault:
Cyclops
Mad Cat IIC
Annihilator

So, all the fun 'Mechs...

[MechaBattler]

Well when it was IS mechs over performing. They turned the quirks down on them. I distinctly remember them nerfing the Black Knight and Warhammer. They can't turn down quirks on something that doesn't have quirks. And everyone gets especially pissed when they put negative quirks. They were going to nerf the yaw or something on the MCII. And everyone was losing their minds over it. Course it didn't help they wanted to nerf lasers as well.

[Dogstar]

I was going to say that the _real_ problem is not mechs or weapon systems it's BOATING.

But frankly there are so many badly designed mechs with multiple boatable hardpoints that there's simply no way to fix boating.

We need to reduce boating by penalising multiple similar weapons and weapons that synergise well together and we need to improve the number of hardpoints on mechs that have too few - mostly the crappy IS mechs that no-one plays but also a few clan dogs too.

Penalising gauss boating is easy - increase the charge up time by 50% if you have two gauss rifles charging at the same time and add screen shake for _all_ gauss rifles that is doubled if you fire two at once

Penalising lasers is easy too - if you group together any set of lasers that do more than thirty damage then increase the burn time until it's lowered to 30 dps

Machine gun boating - lower the crit multilpier a _lot_ so they don't core breached mechs out instantly, add a low percentage jam mechanic or jam bar mechanic to prevent continuous fire

AC/UAC/RAC boating - is this much of a problem? Upping ghost heat penalties should cover this easily


The real problem is that PGI don't listen and can't write code and that the 'community' has too many arrogantly self-interested gits in it

Edited by Dogstar, 09 August 2018 - 09:39 AM.

[Mortalcoil]

The problem is there is basically no reason to take a heavy or assault IS laser vomit mech over a Clan heavy or assault laser vomit mech in the vast majority of situations.

That is the problem they are trying to fix.

[Bud Crue]

Mortalcoil, on 09 August 2018 - 10:16 AM, said:

The problem is there is basically no reason to take a heavy or assault IS laser vomit mech over a Clan heavy or assault laser vomit mech in the vast majority of situations.

That is the problem they are trying to fix.

That may be what they are trying to do, but the proposal as they illustrated in the podcast, to drop the effectiveness of clan energy by 20% and then drop IS defensive quirks by 30% (their example) is not going to suddenly give me a reason to take a Jester over an Ebon to a T-bolt over a Hellbringer. I take em all now, and I like em all as they are.

Whatever. I just want them to leave stuff alone, or if it is indeed necessary to make changes, to buff the real underperformers. That, however, as they also made clear in the podcast, isn’t on the table as an option (except in the context of giving quirks to underperformers that are disproportionately harmed by the planned nerfs). So now it is just a question of waiting to see what they nerf and to what extent. But whatever they do I can guarantee, at least for my play, that whatever they nerf, be it in terms of weapons or individual quirks, will simply get played less over things that aren’t. That isn’t solving the asserted problem, merely redirecting it or actually making it worse.

[Wil McCullough]

Pgi seem deathly afraid of nerfing chassis. Ever since the drama that happened with the kdk3 actually. I'm guessing it's because they think it'll affect their sales. No one wants to pony up cash for a new shiny only to see it get nerfed within a month.

If that happens, more players will take the "wait and see" approach and only buy mechs when they're out for cbills. Considering pgi relies heavily on mech sales to bring in dough, i can understand why they're hesitant to nerf particular mechs. Their penchant for overdoing nerfs makes the effect more pronounced.

By nerfing weapons as a whole, at least they can argue that it's a nerf to everyone, not just the mech you bought for real money.

That would explain all the pants-on-head gauss and heavy laser gh nerfs they're proposing instead of just outright nerfing the mcii ds.

Edited by Wil McCullough, 09 August 2018 - 09:51 PM.