12 replies to this topic

[Sir Immortal Shadow]

This is a pretty simple one, I'd like the RAC/5 to be a little colder.
I noticed they have a lot in common with LB10Xs, they're similar weight, size, range and velocity, they both spread damage, and they're both a weird combination of burst and dps, though in different ways. But the LB10X (aside from being better at shielding and snap shooting) racks up a little over half as much heat. The RAC/2 also got a heat buff along with it's recent damage buff, since it's heat didn't increase at all. And the AC/2 and 5 got some too. Okay I guess it's more similar to a UAC/10, but it still pales in comparison to the UAC/10s pinpoint and alpha abilities. Basically I rarely see as good results with RAC/5s as I do with RAC/2s or AC/10 types, especially with multiples of them where the alphas and heat gen are bigger factors.
Also did you know in real life multiple spinning barrels does a good job of keeping a weapon cooler? The high surface area and air flow does it, it's actually one of the biggest reasons multiple barrels allows for such a heightened rate of fire, single barrel autocannnons could have much higher rates of fire mechanically but they'd overheat.
Here's a reference page to compare the Damage per Heat of other Autocannons.
https://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

Edited by Sir Immortal Shadow, 11 August 2018 - 10:00 PM.

[KursedVixen]

No No no NO! i'm annoyed at Racs as they are they don't need any help execpt a higher jam rate.

[Sir Immortal Shadow]

@KursedVixen
You think so? The general opinion is that RACs suck. The spin-up, the damage spread. RAC/2s are much improved with their recent buff. Are you annoyed by the blinding or by their damage potential?

[KursedVixen]

I'm annoyed that PGI is biased heavy favoring IS over clans....

[Daggett]

Currently i see no point in taking RAC5s over RAC2s, in my experience 3x RAC2 are superior to 2x RAC5. Because they are more ammo-efficient, 3x RAC2 weight only 3t tons more but you get better heat efficiency, better range, similar DPS and longer jam-bar duration.

So yes, RAC5 could use a buff, but it does not need to be heat. For example by increasing the DPS you would get more damage for your heat and it would differentiate the two RACs better. Then you would have a burst-dps weapon with low endurance and the other has more sustain and range but needs more facetime.

KursedVixen, on 11 August 2018 - 11:01 PM, said:

I'm annoyed that PGI is biased heavy favoring IS over clans....

And i bet half the forum thinks that PGI is favoring clans over IS.

In my opinion both sides have several high-performing mechs/builds and underperforming ones as well.

[Sir Immortal Shadow]

Clans have been statistically dominant for a long time.

[KursedVixen]

Sir Immortal Shadow, on 12 August 2018 - 12:32 PM, said:

Clans have been statistically dominant for a long time.

i've never seen clans win in faction play as of recent times, when against IS

Edited by KursedVixen, 12 August 2018 - 12:44 PM.

[Khobai]

heat isnt why RACs are bad

so lowering the heat isnt the solution

the spin-up time is the biggest problem with RACs. because by the time you spin up the target has already alphad youd and is moving back into cover. you can pre-spin as a workaround but why should you have to do that? Its not like RACs are good enough that you should have to do that.

Daggett, on 12 August 2018 - 04:18 AM, said:

Currently i see no point in taking RAC5s over RAC2s, in my experience 3x RAC2 are superior to 2x RAC5. Because they are more ammo-efficient, 3x RAC2 weight only 3t tons more but you get better heat efficiency, better range, similar DPS and longer jam-bar duration.

x2 RAC5s do way more dps for way less heat than x3 RAC2s. And only require 2 hardpoints not 3.

I have the opposite problem. I see no reason to ever take RAC2s.

RAC2s are just plain worse than RAC5s.

Edited by Khobai, 14 August 2018 - 10:20 PM.

[Daggett]

Khobai, on 14 August 2018 - 10:14 PM, said:

x2 RAC5s do way more dps for way less heat than x3 RAC2s. And only require 2 hardpoints not 3.

I have the opposite problem. I see no reason to ever take RAC2s.

RAC2s are just plain worse than RAC5s.

This may be true in competitive play where you have organized teams but when pugging QP RAC2s are stupidly strong, if not overpowered. Of cause you don't engage peeking mechs, but against pushing assaults or anything that can't get into cover quickly 3xRAC2 are devastating.

Regarding DPS we are speaking of 19.65 vs. 21.82. The difference is about 2.17 which should still qualify my "similar dps" assessment and is not "way more". Also 3xRAC2 generate only 6 heat/s vs. 8 heat/s of the dual RAC5.
So RAC5 do 11% more DPS but pay this with whopping 33% more heat. They generate much more heat, not "way less" as you stated.

Then take into account that you can fire RAC2s for 3s longer until they can jam and you got much more sustained DPS than the RAC5. Add to this the additional range and that a jamming RAC2 will only take away 33% of your DPS compared to 50% on the dual RAC5 and we have a clear solo QP winner here if your mech has the required three hardpoints.

I can't count how often i repelled an enemy with a single non-jamming RAC2 where dual RAC5 would have jammed or overheated me long before.

The main reason why RACs are great in solo QP is that enemies fear their DPS and blinding effect more than anything else including LRMs. In theory having huge facetime while staring down an enemy is bad, but with so much DPS only top players dare to fight back and try to aim at your weak components while they get plinked constantly. In my experience at least 80% of T1 pug players try to get the hell out of your focus which often means free damage.

Edited by Daggett, 15 August 2018 - 07:45 AM.

[Khobai]

Daggett, on 15 August 2018 - 07:37 AM, said:

Regarding DPS we are speaking of 19.65 vs. 21.82.

but its also 24 tons vs 20 tons and 3 hardpoints vs 2 hardpoints

so the RAC5s not only outdps the RAC2s but also weigh 4 tons less than the RAC2s

why would you ever use RAC2s? RAC2s need a buff way more than RAC5s do.

Daggett, on 15 August 2018 - 07:37 AM, said:

Then take into account that you can fire RAC2s for 3s longer until they can jam

but RAC5s have a higher dps output. so the damage is more frontloaded. not backloaded like with the RAC2s.

thats better in most cases.

Quote

I can't count how often i repelled an enemy with a single non-jamming RAC2 where dual RAC5 would have jammed or overheated me long before.

the RAC5s give you more tonnage for secondary weapons. so when the RAC5s jam you fall back on your secondary weapons. its never been an issue for me.

Edited by Khobai, 15 August 2018 - 01:24 PM.

[Daggett]

Khobai, on 15 August 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

but its also 24 tons vs 20 tons and 3 hardpoints vs 2 hardpoints

so the RAC5s not only outdps the RAC2s but also weigh 4 tons less than the RAC2s

In practice the difference is only 3 tons because RAC2 ammo brings 20% more damage per ton (315 compared to 262,5) which means you can carry 1 ton less for same total damage potential.

The other 3t are needed for extra heatsinks because dual RAC5 can not be sustained with only 10 engine DHS. Triple RAC2 however can.

And hardpoints do not always matter, for example the Bushracker does not care much.
BTW: Triple RAC2 only need 9 slots, dual RAC5 need 12. This can make a bigger difference on some mechs than the extra hardpoint needed.

Khobai, on 15 August 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

but RAC5s have a higher dps output. so the damage is more frontloaded. not backloaded like with the RAC2s.

True it's better against peek-a-boo targets, but you don't want to trade with those using RAC5 either. And if i catch an assault by surprise i prefer the extra seconds triple RAC2 give me to increase the total damage caused.

Khobai, on 15 August 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

the RAC5s give you more tonnage for secondary weapons. so when the RAC5s jam you fall back on your secondary weapons. its never been an issue for me.

With 8 heat/s dual RAC5 are too hot for most secondary weapons. As mentioned above you need the saved tonnage for heat sinks. And if you fire hot stuff like lasers while RACs are cooling down or unjam you are doing it wrong and waste DPS.

Khobai, on 15 August 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

why would you ever use RAC2s? RAC2s need a buff way more than RAC5s do.

Buff RAC2? Yes please, maybe i break 1000 average damage per match then:



I bought the BSW-X1 last month just for triple RAC2s and have never run anything else on it. Notice how much better it's stats are compared to my former best performing laservomit HBR. I will remind you when PGI buffs the RAC5 or nerfs RAC2.

BTW: I played dual RAC5 on my BSW-X2 for a while before i switched to RAC2s and they never performed that good simply because their higher heat and lower firing-time do matter a lot. Just give it a try, maybe you will be as surprised as i was...

Edited by Daggett, 15 August 2018 - 03:55 PM.

[Sir Immortal Shadow]

I can imagine one scenario where I would rather take the RAC/5 over the RAC/2 and that is when I only have one ballistic hardpoint and weak/no ballistic cooldown quirks; it pairs well with smaller lasers, SRM2/4s, or rockets. Normally I'd be just as happy to take a RAC/2, but small/medium lasers and SRMs can wind up leaving your mech with extra tonnage and not enough firepower on certain chassis and while SRMs aren't as bad for that, I'm not very good with them. A good example is the Hunchback 4H. It can't spam RAC/2s, and it has better energy quirks than ballistic cooldown (AC/10) quirks. You could turn it into a reasonable brawler by giving it a decent light engine, RAC/5, 2 medium pulsers, and 3 small lasers. But still, I'd probably rather take an LB10.

[GweNTLeR]

I don't think you need to compare RAC5 with RAC2. They are designed for different mechs. If you are hardpoint limited, you are likely better with RAC 5. Sometimes it is better to take a combo of RAC2&5(when you want maximum DPS in XL mech) (examples of such mechs: https://mwo.smurfy-n...6b2220d2b09d2e2 https://mwo.smurfy-n...d1f637a363cb6c9 ). As for Dual RAC5 vs Triple RAC2, this comparison is only viable for MAD chassis. IMO, the better option depends on your playstyle.
But anyway, AC5 family (RAC, STD,LBX,ULTRA) is somewhat underperforming to other AC families, so I'd like to see boost to the whole family.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 24 August 2018 - 02:48 AM.