20 replies to this topic

[sharknoise]

The problem:
Separating the playerbase into many buckets has led to longer waiting times.


The root of the problem:
It isn't the number of modes/divisions/buckets/queues itself. The root of the problem is you can't instantly see which queues have enough people. Even if you like more than 1 mode, you can only try 1 queue at a time. To check other queues you have to leave your original queue. For some modes you also have to go through different screens. It's like a comedy movie where characters run through several adjacent rooms but never bump into each other.


Proposed solution:
Help people meet in 1 bucket. Add a general match finder screen, where the player can select several modes before pressing "Find a match". Such feature is nothing new for online games with modes, it's just that MWO had no need of it until recently.


Example of how it would work:
Two friends want to play together in any mode that allows it. The united match finder screen replaces the existing group interface. One of the friends goes to the match finder screen, invites the other to form a group, then ticks the boxes for FW Invasion, FW Scouting, QP Group Queue, Solaris 2v2 Div 1, Solaris 2v2 Div 2, and Solaris 2v2 Div 3. MWO looks through the queues in all selected modes, then places the two-man into the queue/division that is the most promising, ideally only lacking 2 players to start a match.


Example #2:
A solo player wants to play Solaris, opens the same general match finder screen, doesn't invite any groupmates, just ticks Solaris 1v1 Div 1, Solaris 1v1 Div 2, Solaris 1v1 Div 3... too lazy to type them all, you get the idea. MWO looks through all the selected queues, finds the one that's not empty, places the player there. Personally, I'd tick all Solaris 1v1 divisions + solo QP. Currently I have to check 7 Solaris queues one after another, then go to the QP screen, then wait for several minutes for a QP match without being sure that Solaris queues are still empty.


Mechs for different modes:
Obviously you would need to choose all the mechs for your preferred modes before pressing "Find a match". No new interface is necessary for this, could be done on the existing mode screens. If something isn't right - like no career chosen, drop deck invalid, contract in Solaris expired, the number of players wrong - then the corresponding mode box becomes greyed out. Note that it's easy to change some of the current participation rules here. Make solo players able to tick Group QP and Solaris 2v2 boxes so the teams in these modes could be formed faster.


Existing matchmaker:
The simplest way to connect this bucket finder to the existing matchmaking would be a 2-step system. The 1st step is place players into a mode/division with enough opponents. Then, if it's a mode with Tiers or Elo, the corresponding matchmaker gets to work. With more programming it's possible to merge both steps into something better. For example, if two opponents have selected more than one Solaris division, they get matched in the division where their Elo scores are closer to each other.


Why not simply redu ce the number of modes:
Even if some modes aren't perfect, having variety doesn't hurt. Play the best mode, get tired of it, rest by playing another one. As for players that are dead set on playing 1 mode. If you take it away from them, you'll just make them angry. Can't be sure they'll continue to play at all. Let them select a single mode if they are ready to wait for opponents. Though I believe the majority would tick 2-4 boxes, reducing the waiting times at least by half.

Edited by sharknoise, 20 August 2018 - 04:47 AM.

[Appogee]

Your solution, while sound in concept, would require coding.

Unfortunately, PGI have decided they won't do further coding on MWO.

I'll file this good idea with all the other ones.

[sharknoise]

Quote

Unfortunately, PGI have decided they won't do further coding on MWO.

Well, someone has written the code for several new screens and a new matchmaker for Solaris. They must be pretty disappointed to see Solaris mostly empty. Just one more screen and one more matchmaker, so that their previous coding doesn't get wasted.

[Teonas]

In the FW forums there is a recent proposal of the lead designer to cut back on the incoming dropships. I would be surprised if that did not involve coding.

[JRcam4643]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

[Liam Wolf]

Better solution would be just have FP only open for 4 or so hours a day.

[C E Dwyer]

Liam Wolf, on 20 August 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

Better solution would be just have FP only open for 4 or so hours a day.

which four hours.

Prime time in Iceland maybe ?

[LordNothing]

C E Dwyer, on 20 August 2018 - 07:53 AM, said:

which four hours.

Prime time in Iceland maybe ?

unless theres an event, or its the weekend, fp is usually dead. so having it open on the weekend makes more sense. though i dont see any difference between it being closed and being dead.

Edited by LordNothing, 20 August 2018 - 08:06 AM.

[Liam Wolf]

C E Dwyer, on 20 August 2018 - 07:53 AM, said:

which four hours.

Prime time in Iceland maybe ?

It would rotate.

LordNothing, on 20 August 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

unless theres an event, or its the weekend, fp is usually dead. so having it open on the weekend makes more sense. though i dont see any difference between it being closed and being dead.

Well I would really say get rid of FP all together. QP is the most popular game mode, they should focus on it.

[Mystere]

Liam Wolf, on 20 August 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

Well I would really say get rid of FP all together. QP is the most popular game mode, they should focus on it.

PGI should have stopped focusing on QP a long long time ago. The staffing, money, time, and other very limited resources spent on that filler would have been better spent on brining actual meat to this still barely emaciated skeleton of a game.

[Liam Wolf]

Mystere, on 20 August 2018 - 08:31 AM, said:

PGI should have stopped focusing on QP a long long time ago. The staffing, money, time, and other very limited resources spent on that filler would have been better spent on brining actual meat to this still barely emaciated skeleton of a game.

Except the vast majority play QP, FP will never be more popular. New players cant even get into FP with out trials.

[sharknoise]

Perhaps it would have been better to focus on one mode from the very beginning, but now it's too late to think about it. FP, QP and Solaris exist. Players that like these modes exist. There will be no agreement on which mode should be removed. Even the replies in this thread hint at it.

Quote

QP is the most popular ... focus on it.

Quote

PGI should have stopped focusing on QP

Besides, to throw away a whole mode with all the work put into it? Good or bad, I just don't expect PGI to do it. Maybe coding isn't easy for them either, but I still find my idea more realistic. They have added new screens in the past, have they ever removed whole modes?

[Liam Wolf]

sharknoise, on 20 August 2018 - 09:52 AM, said:

Perhaps it would have been better to focus on one mode from the very beginning, but now it's too late to think about it. FP, QP and Solaris exist. Players that like these modes exist. There will be no agreement on which mode should be removed. Even the replies in this thread hint at it.


Besides, to throw away a whole mode with all the work put into it? Good or bad, I just don't expect PGI to do it. Maybe coding isn't easy for them either, but I still find my idea more realistic. They have added new screens in the past, have they ever removed whole modes?

We do not have to agree, PGI just have to choose but they never will. Also thats why I said FP if not scrap all together should go to 4 hour per day on, That way who ever likes it can play easily.

[Rafe Yomin]

I think your suggestion would also need a completely different matchmaker, since it would probably make things worse:

Imagine you queue for 3 modes. QP matchmaker is grouping you in a QP match (which isn't full so you will need to wait for a full group). FP matchmaker is grouping you up (not full yet, so wait), and solaris starts looking. Solaris finds a game -> QP matchmaker needs to remove you, FP matchmaker needs to remove you. They both lose a player, leading to higher waiting times for the other games too, since people will be constantly dropping out if smaller grouped gamemodes keep going off. That might not be a problem for you, but for the other people in those queues it's a problem.

[sharknoise]

Rafe Yomin, on 21 August 2018 - 02:53 AM, said:

Imagine you queue for 3 modes...
Solaris finds a game -> QP matchmaker needs to remove you, FP matchmaker needs to remove you.

I might have failed to word it properly. What I meant is this: once a player has pressed the find-a-match button, the population of selected queues is compared immediately. The player is placed into the queue that is more populated at the moment and stays there. The game doesnt try to track the speed of queues over time. The only trick is that queue populations are compared relative to the number of players required for a match.

So if the numbers are like
5 (out of 24 required) in solo QP queue,
3 (out of 24 required) in FW invasion queue,
1 (out of 2 required) in a 1v1 Solaris div queue,
then the player is sent to Solaris, even though 1 is less than 5 or 3.

If the numbers are like
5 (out of 24 required) in solo QP,
6 (out of 24 required) in FW invasion,
0 (out of 2 required) in a 1v1 Solaris div,
then the player is sent to FW, even though it won't be the fastest queue. Not the fastest, but still promising enough for FW. It's implied that people who have selected FW don't mind this.

[Eisenhorne]

LordNothing, on 20 August 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

unless theres an event, or its the weekend, fp is usually dead. so having it open on the weekend makes more sense. though i dont see any difference between it being closed and being dead.

Not really. Most days it's a ~5 minute wait between FP drops at most, which is marginally annoying but tolerable. Sometimes there are dry drops, but that's like 10% of the time in my experience, and usually towards the end of the night. You can avoid issues like this by swapping sides to the less populated side.

I'd rather wait 5-15 minutes to get a FP drop than have to play QP. I really dislike the completely random maps and game modes when I cannot pick a mech that suits them. I also like the strategy aspect of FP where you pick 4 mechs. Do you front load the tonnage into an Annihilator? Or do you spread the tonnage out and take 4 light heavies? It's much better than the Quick Play method, where it considers an Annihilator and an Awesome equal because they're both assault mechs.

Quote

It's implied that people who have selected FW don't mind this.

I would mind this. I would rather wait longer to play FW than play QP most of the time.

[LordNothing]

Eisenhorne, on 21 August 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

Not really. Most days it's a ~5 minute wait between FP drops at most, which is marginally annoying but tolerable. Sometimes there are dry drops, but that's like 10% of the time in my experience, and usually towards the end of the night. You can avoid issues like this by swapping sides to the less populated side.

I'd rather wait 5-15 minutes to get a FP drop than have to play QP. I really dislike the completely random maps and game modes when I cannot pick a mech that suits them. I also like the strategy aspect of FP where you pick 4 mechs. Do you front load the tonnage into an Annihilator? Or do you spread the tonnage out and take 4 light heavies? It's much better than the Quick Play method, where it considers an Annihilator and an Awesome equal because they're both assault mechs.

i guess it really depends on when you play. i tend to miss all but the last hour or two of the na phase and its usually dead durring the start of the oc phase. there is no way i can play any sooner than i do. woes of living in a poorly populated time zone. i can play somewhat earlier on the weekends though.

as for mechs i usually run lighter assaults. mostly so i can better keep up with the group. seldom run anything over 85 tons in fp.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 August 2018 - 08:08 AM.

[sharknoise]

Quote

I would mind this. I would rather wait longer to play FW than play QP most of the time.

I was replying to a post about a hypothetical player selecting 3 modes (QP, FW, Solaris). It won't apply to you if you only want FW. You'll just form a group as usual and tick "FW Invasion" box only. The difference is if you don't have a full premade, some additional players might get sent into FW to join you faster. Like 2-man groups that have selected Group QP, Solaris and FW because they only care about playing togetger, not the mode. Or solo players that mostly play QP, but don't mind filling last slots in FW to fight alongside some unit. Currently solo players simply don't know when they need to stop playing QP and go to the FW screen. 2-man groups don't know which group mode is closer to starting a match, so they switch between different group modes randomly and then create numerous threads "we tried everything, waiting times too long, let us play in solo queue". The system I suggested would check the queues and send such players to FW when they are needed in FW (that is, when FW queue already has a considerable number of people waiting).

Edited by sharknoise, 21 August 2018 - 11:35 PM.

[Rafe Yomin]

sharknoise, on 21 August 2018 - 07:33 AM, said:

I might have failed to word it properly. What I meant is this: once a player has pressed the find-a-match button, the population of selected queues is compared immediately. The player is placed into the queue that is more populated at the moment and stays there. The game doesnt try to track the speed of queues over time. The only trick is that queue populations are compared relative to the number of players required for a match.

So if the numbers are like
5 (out of 24 required) in solo QP queue,
3 (out of 24 required) in FW invasion queue,
1 (out of 2 required) in a 1v1 Solaris div queue,
then the player is sent to Solaris, even though 1 is less than 5 or 3.

If the numbers are like
5 (out of 24 required) in solo QP,
6 (out of 24 required) in FW invasion,
0 (out of 2 required) in a 1v1 Solaris div,
then the player is sent to FW, even though it won't be the fastest queue. Not the fastest, but still promising enough for FW. It's implied that people who have selected FW don't mind this.

But this still means that the matchmaker needs to be able to check the different queue's and compare. We have separate matchmakers for every queue instead of 1 which can check and then slot people in the "correct" one. This would still require a fair amount of coding, and that's never going to happen. Changes which require anything other than numbers being changed aren't really going to happen other than basic maintenance.

[sharknoise]

You can argue that PGI has no desire to write code, but they surely have the ability. I'll repeat myself, Solaris is a recently released mode and Solaris has its own matchmaker. Someone must have written the code for it. The matchmaker in Solaris:
- gets Elo values for several players,
- compares them to each other
- sends players into matches.
The matchmaker I propose (bucket finder):
- gets population values for several queues,
- compares them to each other
- sends players into queues.
It's a fairly similar algorithm, nothing overly complicated. Yes, it would take some time to add. But I believe it addresses at least two very common complaints:
- waiting times for two-man groups;
- empty queues in Solaris.
Suppose they consider two-mans a lost case. But with the amount of work apparently put into Solaris, PGI can't give up on it that fast.