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Dear Pgi, Please Fix Your ****


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#1 The6thMessenger

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 01:00 AM

Dear PGI

Getting really tired of the poor choices here. I understand the sentiment of trying to fix things, I really do, but it doesn't get us anywhere. You want to address the Artemis, the LRMs, but you don't really want to touch the core mechanics, which is exactly the main problem. Sentiments wont fix LRMs, action is.

As for the upcoming patch, what the ****?

You'd further lower the lock-cone from 45 degrees, to 25-degrees, and now i assume to be 12.5 degrees. The point of homing missiles is that they are easy to use.

Is the issue the IDF? Well if the IDF was properly implemented in the first place, like if it mandated the use of NARC and TAG, then we have a good reason for IDF to be powerful. You want to fix LRMs? Stop playing with XMLs and fix the god damn mechanics.

And now we get Artemis to the ground that it's barely useful and not worth the allotment. You think that -25% spread would be worth a damn? Guess what, LRMs are spread inevitably, we don't use Artemis for the spread-bonus, we take it for the Lock Speed and Tracking Bonuses, take the hint. Hell, SRMs aren't even that good with Artemis anymore.

You don't want LRMs to be a waste of space, but this is what you do. Hows about finally fix your ****? Make provide LOS bonus both for no and with Artemis, this will magically fix things because you can finally balance for different uses of LRMs.

Is it the streak-boats? Because while i understand the sentiment, a literal change in mechanic would do more for the lights that were being nuked.

For example, you could have made SSRMs not fire-and-forget but still require LOS, but they fly faster at about 300-325 m/s -- this provides between 0.83s and 1.2s of window-time with 270m-360m range to juke the missiles by fast lights. After all, the Streaks require constant telemetry updates to ensure that they hit, if anything they need only 90% hit-rate. The missiles hit so fast that it might as well be fire-and-forget, just as Gauss projectiles fly so fast we need the Gauss-Charge to justify it. Sure it means that a fast-light in the open gets hit faster, but simmilar case with slower-projectile, it would have been hit regardless anyways. At least you can juke SSRMs, if players overheat with an entire volley then they miss.

Also the CACs, what would have made them worth while is that they shoot one slug, but deals spread damage, like 1/2/3/5 spread damage and 1/3/7/15 damage for the AC2/5/10/20. Or simmilarly just velocity adjustment to 2000/1730/1450/1190 projectile speed. You want to make them not waste of space, then implement those.

/rant

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 25 August 2018 - 04:18 AM, said:




Probably because it's supposed to be an entry-level weapon. That being said, it does not mean it has to be useless in the higher tiers, it just needs to be relevant.

Homing weapons is supposed to be the crutch for the low-skill players that didn't have to aim, just as noob-tube is so that they have something against experienced players, but it's just there to get them interested into the game, not get stagnant. Homing weapons is just for aim-assisting, it's already compensated by spread-damage -- it's not like some gauss that you can frontload massive damage at a single component, nor an LBX that you can compensate the spread with distance, why on earth do we even need this near-pinpoint locking? It defeats the goddamn purpose.

The problem is that LRMs, is just so stupidly built, how it works rewards passive and idiotic play because of Indirect-Fire. Noobs get too comfortable in lurming in the background, and when they die "everyone is a cheater, the game is rigged", and when the team loses "i blame LRMboats" and they'd be right about it -- it just prevents noobs from getting in the game because it's so stupidly weak yet stupidly comfortable to use (was comfortable, now PGI nerfed it, now it's just stupidly weak and it's not even comfortable for noob use). Had it have a good mechanic that makes them discover that getting their own locks was actually more helpful, like Artemis was supposed to be, we'd have less of this as a problem.

What should they have done is restricted IDF with NARC-TAG, and ******* fixed that Artemis we were lied about for 6 years (I think it was just 1.25 years for me). Hell, if it were me, I'd also make each weapons have their own lock, and need to require lock every shot and after recycle like Gauss-Charge, and balance from there. That's how you independently nerf the locking system of SSRMs from the rest of the homing weapons.

But no man, PGI is just too god damn lazy, all the sentiment against the idea (and arguably the fact) that LRMs are dead-weight, instead of the mechanics rework LRMs sorely needed, all they have time to spare is an XML change doing what nobody wants, doing exactly the opposite of what they hope to do, and the justification of their decisions is so stupid, it might as well be "because **** you that's why" and there will be little of substance lost.

I hate LRMs, not because I'm getting killed by it (im not), **** LRMs because it's a **** weapon system, the toilet-bowl of MWO, and until it's ******* fixed, we'll keep on hating on it and PGI is the only one to blame.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 25 August 2018 - 04:28 AM.


#2 Hiten Bongz

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 05:11 PM

The missile changes are so atrociously implemented that it'd be almost hilarious if it didn't affect so many of my mechs so negatively. And I'm not talking about LRMs.

ATMs and Streaks got the most massive usability nerfs when the target of the nerfs was passive LRM boating/play...which of course is barely affected; they just drop Artemis (most LRM boats didn't even use it to begin with) for more tubes and ammo. Meanwhile Streaks and ATMs are just f**cked. Sure, you shouldn't have been able to add Artemis to Streaks (maybe you could just give them a buff then?) or ATMs (because they already have integrated Artemis, which is now useless dead weight added to the launchers being that 2 out of 3 inbuilt bonuses are just deleted).

Tighten locking angle?
I can deal with this, but I would have preferred a smaller change to start with, not "OMG HALF THAT SH!T, YO." Passive LRM boats will just sit farther away and depend on teammates locks even more (read: essentially unaffected) while active Missileers who are sharing armor and being team players just get completely sh!t on for their efforts. Thanks for that.

Remove Artemis lock speed bonus?
Once again, this has no effect on the majority of LRM boats, especially the passive ones. Has a direct and very noticeable negative effect on Streaks and ATMs (maybe we can buff these independently now?). Bye-bye poptarting any missiles, bye-bye peek and volley, bye-bye torso twist and re-lock (the face staring is now a death sentence). Essentially you either stand back behind your team and use their locks from safety as before (LRMs), or stand out in the open staring down your opponent for several seconds before you can fire (ATMs, Streaks). Meanwhile you get focused down, doing zero damage. If they have ECM, well...

Buffing ECM (and LOL, not buffing BAPs)?
Wouldn't be so much of a damn problem except that ya just simultaneously nerfed locking speed and angle, so now it's incredibly annoying/time consuming (to the point of utter stupidity vs. ECM lights) to acquire and especially maintain a lock. Might as well not even try; any other weapon is faster TTK and more efficient, and won't have you staring them down for several seconds at a time while dealing zero damage. I'd rather shoot my AMS at them, if I could. At least I'd be dealing some damage. On to the topic of BAPs, WTF? Ya go and buff the Jesusbox but not the counter? Did you just forget about the damn things, or what? I...I don't even know what to say about this.
Complete. Oversight.

All of this, because PGI logic: don't fix the actual problem, just nerf everything around it.

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 23 August 2018 - 05:49 PM.


#3 theplayerx4734

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 05:27 PM

The changes make this game more skill based, which is a good thing. Aiming is a skill that every mechwarrior should have to be good at. The lock on changes dont "nerf" missle weapons, it just makes it so you have to aim which is easier if you turn off arm lock. Thus game is 50% skill and 50% strategy. Even if you get 1200 dmg and 6 kills, if your teams strategy sucks you will still lose. TL:DR, improve your aiming. A great way to do this is to turn off arm lock.

Also no this game is not a "twitch shooter", if it was torso speed would be unlimited and cockpit shots would be super easy.

#4 Khobai

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 05:29 PM

View Posttheplayerx4734, on 23 August 2018 - 05:27 PM, said:

The changes make this game more skill based, which is a good thing.


No the changes make LRMs even worse than they already were. LRMs were not good weapons. Nerfing them was ridiculous.

Now we have even less options than before.

This last patch needs to be removed from the game with a hotfix.

#5 Hiten Bongz

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 05:30 PM

View Posttheplayerx4734, on 23 August 2018 - 05:27 PM, said:

TL:DR, improve your aiming. A great way to do this is to turn off arm lock.


This is a tired and entirely non-related argument when discussing missile lock speed, missile tracking, ECM counterplay, etc.

There was more to the nerfs than just a tighter locking angle, perhaps you should go back and re-read the other points we've covered?

#6 theplayerx4734

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 06:04 PM

Artemis nerf doesnt affect ATMs and Streaks unless you were using the exploit. ECM buff doesn't really affect much, it just made ecm more than just personal missle immunity. Agaian, lock nerfs dont do much if you hold locks and aim (not a tired or non related as you are complaining about lock angle). Turning off arm lock completely nullifies the nerf as you can aim via the arm reticle. LRMs are free damage if supported by a team, dont go single queue with a LRM boat expecting team to hold locks lmao.

Oh, and if enemy didn't have ecm and you peeked with target decay you had enough time to get locks behind cover which is insane, and there was no penalty for IDF.

If you browse OutreachHPG you will see that these nerfs are well recieved, and it is a few people on the forum complaining about lock angle and lock speed (some of the same people actually).

Personaly I dont take LRMS, but on my MCII-2 I take 2 ATM-6 as secondary weapons to crit weapons, and homestly I have seen no change in gameplay. Same with streaks on another one of my other mechs.

To decrease targeting time, take a Targeting Computer;I it really helps

Trying to stay constructive as possible

#7 NUMBERZero1032

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 06:22 PM

I like the nerf.

I take Artemis for the spread. Never cared for the lock time. I mean, you can get LRM mechs that have a DPS of 13-20 in a game where every non-LRM build has an average DPS of like 7-10. The idea that the LRM spread offsets the DPS is sort of rediculous once you start focusing that spread with Artemis, and especially when you get a full lance of LRM mechs outputting 80 missiles each every 4 seconds or so.

So no, that half second longer it takes to lock targets doesn't really matter compared to the infinite sustain and DPS. So not only are these nerfs in the right direction, they could go further and change some hard number aspects.

#8 Hiten Bongz

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 06:26 PM

View Posttheplayerx4734, on 23 August 2018 - 06:04 PM, said:

Artemis nerf doesnt affect ATMs unless you were using the exploit.

To decrease targeting time, take a Targeting Computer;I it really helps

Trying to stay constructive as possible


Except you aren't being constructive, because you obviously don't know how ATMs functioned before the nerf and are spreading BS. Whether that's purely from your own ignorance, I don't know. I do know that I've already spelled it out for you, and I'm not going to do it again. Also, TCs do nothing for missiles so I'm not sure why you're mentioning that.

I'm going to just leave this here.

From patch notes, 18-OCT-2017

Missile Design Notes: ATMs are considered to have the Artemis Upgrade pre-attached to the weapon, and should function as such, but with the exception that their base level Spread is not augmented by Artemis (as it considered rolled into their baseline stats).

https://mwomercs.com...37-18-oct-2017/

View PostChris Lowrey, on 20 August 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

ATMs are considered to have Artemis baked into their core stats. This change will not affect their spread values as they where not affected by the Artemis upgrade just like MRM's and Rocket launchers. This will only affect the lock on angle and lock times.

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 23 August 2018 - 06:33 PM.


#9 theplayerx4734

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 06:32 PM

Im not spreading BS, please check the patch notes. Nothing changed about ATMs except the target lock and removal of the artemis bonus explot. Litteraly looking at the patch notes right now, thats all that changed,and ecm got a slight buff.

Now you are the one being rude and calling bs when I checked my facts, ao should you

EDIT: ATMS allready had artemis built in, they were recieving a double boost
TC helps you gather target info faster and sensor range

Edited by theplayerx4734, 23 August 2018 - 06:35 PM.


#10 Hiten Bongz

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 06:37 PM

View Posttheplayerx4734, on 23 August 2018 - 06:32 PM, said:

Im not spreading BS, please check the patch notes. Nothing changed about ATMs except the target lock and removal of the artemis bonus explot. Litteraly looking at the patch notes right now, thats all that changed


Why don't you move on over to page 2 where Chris clarifies the ATM changes after I directly asked for confirmation?

Alternatively, I put it in an edit to my above post, along with patch notes from 10/2017 where it states that ATMs have inbuilt Artemis.

What, do you really think they only nerfed the Artemis UPGRADE (selectable from the drop-down box, aka the "exploit") and not the inbuilt Artemis ATMs already have? Come on now...think.

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 23 August 2018 - 06:37 PM.


#11 theplayerx4734

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 06:40 PM

Look at my edit

#12 theplayerx4734

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 06:44 PM

The Artemis in ATMs was unaffected, there was a bug where you could add the artemis UPGRADE to streaks and ATMs even though ATMs have it built in.

#13 Hiten Bongz

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 06:46 PM

View Posttheplayerx4734, on 23 August 2018 - 06:40 PM, said:

Look at my edit

View Posttheplayerx4734, on 23 August 2018 - 06:32 PM, said:

EDIT: ATMS allready had artemis built in, they were recieving a double boost


That's what I've been telling you.

They were receiving the "double" boost by throwing on the Artemis UPGRADE. The upgrade was the "exploit."

The stock ATM launcher already comes with Artemis (unremovable). So it already had 50% lock speed bonus, 50% missile tracking, and 75% spread.

I had to explain all of this in a different thread too, maybe this will help here.

View PostHiten Bongz, on 23 August 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

Pre-patch:

1. ATM has Artemis bonuses baked-in (50% lock speed bonus, 50% tracking, 75% spread)
2. You could still add Artemis on top, effectively doubling the above bonuses.

Post-patch:

1. ATM has Artemis bonuses baked-in, but since Artemis is nerfed, all that remains is 75% spread.
2. Cannot add Artemis on top

What does this mean? Even if you weren't exploiting ATMs pre-patch (like me), you lose the old 50% lock speed and tracking bonuses from all your ATMs. Cuz PGI.


View Posttheplayerx4734, on 23 August 2018 - 06:44 PM, said:

The Artemis in ATMs was unaffected


LOL. NO dude. Wrong.


View PostChris Lowrey, on 20 August 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:


ATMs are considered to have Artemis baked into their core stats. This change will not affect their spread values as they where not affected by the Artemis upgrade just like MRM's and Rocket launchers. This will only affect the lock on angle and lock times.


Will. Affect. Lock. Times.

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 23 August 2018 - 06:50 PM.


#14 theplayerx4734

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 06:51 PM

Dude, they nerfed the UPGRADE not the ATMs, that would require them to physically change ATMs stats, as in game XML the ATMs dont actually have artemis they just have increased stats

EDIT:I dont know then as in game lock times for ATMs have not changed at ALL

Edited by theplayerx4734, 23 August 2018 - 06:52 PM.


#15 Hiten Bongz

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 06:53 PM

View Posttheplayerx4734, on 23 August 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

Dude, they nerfed the UPGRADE not the ATMs, that would require them to physically change ATMs stats, as in game XML the ATMs dont actually have artemis they just have increased stats

I dont know then as lock times for ATMs have not changed at ALL


They did change the damn ATMs. They removed the 50% faster lock and 50% tracking bonuses.

Lock time has changed for ATMs, no matter how many times you say "nuh uh."

I have now, twice, quoted the post directly from Chris about how THE LOCK TIMES HAVE CHANGED.

Why is this so goddamn hard for you to process?

Third time's the charm?

View PostChris Lowrey, on 20 August 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

ATMs are considered to have Artemis baked into their core stats. This change will not affect their spread values as they where not affected by the Artemis upgrade just like MRM's and Rocket launchers. This will only affect the lock on angle and lock times.


Better?

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 23 August 2018 - 06:56 PM.


#16 theplayerx4734

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 06:56 PM

Ok, so they might have changed, but the changes are negligible. Why are you complaining about it?

#17 Hiten Bongz

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 07:00 PM

View Posttheplayerx4734, on 23 August 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

Ok, so they might have changed, but the changes are negligible. Why are you complaining about it?


"Oh crap I was wrong, better change the subject."

Why am I (and I think you mean "we," as I'm not the OP) complaining? Did you read the first two posts in the thread, or go directly to typing your misinformed arguments?

#18 LordNothing

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 07:00 PM

i have to point at living legends as the way to implement lerms correctly. they are fun to use and are neither op nor crap. they are the teamwork++ weapon they are supposed to be. here they are kind of the noob/pug weapon that nobody really takes seriously. skilled teams will use them sometimes but thats just because the game can get boring if all you do is meta builds day in day out.

i think its silly that a thinking man's shooter needs to go out of its way to dumb down mechanics like this.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 August 2018 - 07:02 PM.


#19 theplayerx4734

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 07:03 PM

Listen, you are starting to freak out over a video game, yes I will admit I was wrong, so what?

ATMs preformance has really not changed at all, and you can get used to it

#20 Hiten Bongz

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 07:13 PM

View Posttheplayerx4734, on 23 August 2018 - 07:03 PM, said:

Listen, you are starting to freak out over a video game, yes I will admit I was wrong, so what?


Lol? I'm not freaking out, I'm trying to explain facts to someone who has flat out refused to accept dev acknowledgement and player experience and instead is enforcing the "you're wrong, I'm right, git gud scrub" mentality that nobody wants to hear.

Really sorry that it's taken so many posts and long explanations to help you understand, but that's your lack of understanding, NOT me "freaking out." Don't put the blame on me.

View Posttheplayerx4734, on 23 August 2018 - 07:03 PM, said:

you can get used to it


Don't tell other people how they should play.

I see a bad change implemented for the wrong reasons, I'm going to speak up about it.

Don't like it? Apologies, but you can stop reading and leave the thread at any time.





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