215 replies to this topic

[PobbestGob]

Khobai, on 24 August 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

yeah but just lowering damage on CERML/CHLL has the same effect of reducing energy alphastrikes and without having to implement a ridiculous artificial heatcap.

Once again PGI is looking for a lazy catchall fix because they dont want to balance weapons properly. They dont want to put the work in to balance weapons on a case-by-case basis. So they hatched this absurd heatcap plan. Its no different from ghost heat or any of their other absurd plans to try and avoid doing actual work.

Lowering the damage on those two weapons would have worked yeah. This heatcap strategy was suggested by the community though, for many years in fact, not PGI. The heat cap is very different from ghost heat, energy draw, or other bandaid solutions. It's using a tool already available, one that makes sense and isn't full of extra complication, and in return we get increased dissipation which has the potential to curb play from hot, high-alpha peek and poke into something more fun and interesting. Done right, these changes can be great for the game, not just for balance but for fun. I'm looking forward to seeing what the future iterations of this PTS bring.

[Daurock]

Khobai, on 24 August 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

yeah but just lowering damage on CERML/CHLL has the same effect of reducing energy alphastrikes and without having to implement a ridiculous artificial heatcap.

Once again PGI is looking for a lazy catchall fix because they dont want to balance weapons properly. They dont want to put the work in to balance weapons on a case-by-case basis. So they hatched this absurd heatcap plan. Its no different from ghost heat or any of their other absurd plans to try and avoid doing actual work.

Only partially correct - They didn't do the full balance pass on the lowering of clan alphas because the community cried so hard about it in PTS 1.0, that PGI got scared, and started looking in different directions - We never got to see what things they could do to clan lasers to give them advantages that don't entail having huge alpha. They also never seem to have figured out, or are just being stubborn, about the flat damage that the c-gauss provides being a pretty significant part of the problem.


They also never did a "Partial" alpha lowering (i.e. c-ERML to 6, keeping the live duration, and lowering the heat appropriately), like the community has been wanting for what, like 2 years now? Why they didn't start PTS 1.0 with that, adding in a cGauss damage nerf, and lowering it from there if needed (It likely wouldn't have been) is a complete mystery to me.

Edited by Daurock, 24 August 2018 - 10:21 AM.

[Khobai]

Daurock, on 24 August 2018 - 10:19 AM, said:

Only partially correct - They didn't do the full balance pass on the lowering of clan alphas because the community cried so hard about it in PTS 1.0, that PGI got scared, and started looking in different directions - We never got to see what things they could do to clan lasers to give them advantages that don't entail having huge alpha. They also never seem to have figured out, or are just being stubborn, about the flat damage that the c-gauss provides being a pretty significant part of the problem.


They also never did a "Partial" alpha lowering (i.e. c-ERML to 6, keeping the live duration, and lowering the heat appropriately), like the community has been wanting for what, like 2 years now? Why they didn't start PTS 1.0 with that, adding in a cGauss damage nerf, and lowering it from there if needed (It likely wouldn't have been) is a complete mystery to me.

Because PTS 1.0 was bungled

Instead of just nerfing the damage, which is quite literally all they needed to do. They were nerfing the damage, heat, range, and beam duration.

All clan lasers needed was some fine tuning. But for whatever reason PGI felt the need to nerf clan lasers into obsoletion. So of course people reacted negatively.

Kill2Blit, on 24 August 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

This heatcap strategy was suggested by the community though, for many years in fact, not PGI

It was also rejected by the community for many years. Because lowering the heat cap punishes too many mechs/builds that arnt problematic and heavily restricts options for players.

And theres also the problem that lights shouldnt have the same alphastrike capability as assaults. Because assaults assume much more risk when poking, so they need a higher alphastrike to balance out the additional risk.

This is why a uniform heatcap will never work. The only way heatcap can work is if theres different heatcaps for different weight classes/mechs. Because not all mechs are created the same.

Edited by Khobai, 24 August 2018 - 10:36 AM.

[MechTech Dragoon]

Well...this massively buffs builds that just rely on the 10 DHS in engine, so 90% of lights and mediums and most heavies...but most things with high alpha are still going to be largely unaffected, take the 3 er med 2 hvy large hellbringer build for example, it alphas for 44.3 heat, before skills. However, its now dissipating at 5 heat per second...its burned off 32.5 points of heat by the time the lasers are ready again...not including skills.

After skills, you are only generating 40.58 points of heat on that alpha, with a 57.5 max threshold, dissipating 5.5 heat per second. Now you have burned off 35.75 points of heat by the time your lasers have cooled off....you will have burned off everything you just fired one second after it coming off cooldown. Put it back to 40 -.-
Thats WORSE than live.

First time in forever you have an almost overwhelmingly positive response on a balance change and ya go and change it again >.<.

[FupDup]

XkrX Dragoon, on 24 August 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

Well...this massively buffs builds that just rely on the 10 DHS in engine, so 90% of lights and mediums and most heavies...

The live server base heat cap is already about 50, so it's not a massive buff so much as undoing a massive nerf that the PTS 2.0 crushed them with.

However, it does certainly also buff the high-end gundams like the laser vomit HBR that really don't need it.

[MechTech Dragoon]

Kill2Blit, on 24 August 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

Lowering the damage on those two weapons would have worked yeah. This heatcap strategy was suggested by the community though, for many years in fact, not PGI. The heat cap is very different from ghost heat, energy draw, or other bandaid solutions. It's using a tool already available, one that makes sense and isn't full of extra complication, and in return we get increased dissipation which has the potential to curb play from hot, high-alpha peek and poke into something more fun and interesting. Done right, these changes can be great for the game, not just for balance but for fun. I'm looking forward to seeing what the future iterations of this PTS bring.

Didnt know this one was a community suggestion, i thought they actually yanked it from btech haha. Nice! Most fun i've had in the game in years was on the last pts, hell of a blast. This newest one seems to...make the problem worse, not better. The low cap and high dissipation was so nice.

FupDup, on 24 August 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

The live server base heat cap is already about 50, so it's not a massive buff so much as undoing a massive nerf that the PTS 2.0 crushed them with.

However, it does certainly also buff the high-end gundams like the laser vomit HBR that really don't need it.

Base heat cap is 30 actually, increase by 2.0 for internal DHS, 1.5 for external (so a mech with 10 internal DHS has a heat cap of 50, yes)
But yea...point being, this iteration is buffing alphas and TTK instead of reducing them, completely going against the point.

And, mechs that just rely on the 10 internal, and especially mechs that relied on external, were actually stronger in the last pts. Things like 35 ton light mechs, crabs, ect, all felt wondeful. While heavier mechs were mounting enough heat sinks to burn off the heat load their weapons made, but in a way that made their shots have to matter a hell of allot more.

Edited by XkrX Dragoon, 24 August 2018 - 10:37 AM.

[PobbestGob]

Khobai, on 24 August 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

It was also rejected by the community for many years. Because lowering the heat cap punishes too many mechs/builds that arnt problematic and heavily restricts options for players.

with a heat cap of 50 and extra dissipation there are very few builds that would no longer be viable. Remember heat is dissipated continuously, so builds that hit >50 on live wouldn't necessarily do so on PTS unless they were front-loaded weapons, the only hot ones being PPCs. And nothing is stopping these numbers from being fine-tuned to 40, 50, 45, whatever, along with future balance patches to find the best solutions. The only thing set in stone for PTS changes like this is a move from continuous high alpha spam to more sustained damage, along with the much needed mobility buffs, both of which have so far been well received. Beyond that remains to be decided.

Edited by Kill2Blit, 24 August 2018 - 10:50 AM.

[East Indy]

Increasing base cap to 50 nullified whatever changes to gameplay and loadout choice 2.0 accomplished. It's just too high. I watched an EBJ with all lasers cut apart the other team . . . on Terra Therma.

If anything, I think this PTS series highlights the ease with which lasers can be combined into a hitscan megagun while PPCs are in a very awkward place — heavy, hot, require target-leading, etc. Paul/Chris, the "operational threshold" you mentioned did not allow for familiar/comfortable use of PPCs in 2.0, but that threshold can't also include most meta laser groupings.

Bottom line: well worth testing 50, because it's not in the right direction per stated goals.

Edit: It's possible that player psychology needs to catch up, and the EBJ was able to go to town because the other team wanted to poke, too, but — I'm not sure when and from where that "let's rush and brawl the Clan 'Mechs" paradigm shift comes. I do think it's weird that MWO culture has shifted so much since the PPC/Gauss nerf that a popular Clan 'Mech is supposed to run nothing but lasers.

Edited by East Indy, 24 August 2018 - 10:44 AM.

[FupDup]

XkrX Dragoon, on 24 August 2018 - 10:34 AM, said:

And, mechs that just rely on the 10 internal, and especially mechs that relied on external, were actually stronger in the last pts. Things like 35 ton light mechs, crabs, ect, all felt wondeful.

No they weren't. They suffered -10 heat cap while not gaining any benefit from the external dissipation buff. The bigger mechs like HBR at least got higher dissipation to counteract the lower cap, while the 10-dub mechs got nothing.

[MechTech Dragoon]

FupDup, on 24 August 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

No they weren't. They suffered -10 heat cap while not gaining any benefit from the external dissipation buff. The bigger mechs like HBR at least got higher dissipation to counteract the lower cap, while the 10-dub mechs got nothing.

Sorry! Was thinking mechs with lower engine sizes in those weight brackets. (Like the cougar, adder, panther, kit fox, myst lynx, osiris, raven, urbie, assassin, blackjack, ice ferret, nova) and then when you get higher...literally every mech in the medium/light weight class that mounts more than 10.
Personally though, i dont slap max engine on every single thing. So, maybe i just didn't feel it as much.

[SilentScreamer]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2018 - 06:35 AM, said:

Any heat cap lower than 50 and energy-based light mechs are removed form gameplay. 50 is the absolute minimum.

SilentScreamer, on 24 August 2018 - 08:30 AM, said:

Your point regarding Light mechs is more a matter of build and playstyle than a universal truth. Varied combat tactics with Lights include: Boom&Zoom, Backstabber, Long-Range-Support, Brawler, Sniper (leave Squirrel, Spotter and Capping off the table as non-combat for now).

- Snipers and Boom&Zoom are meant to shoot a few times and move on. Doing the math of total damage and heat level over time does not really get you near the actual performance in-match because the mech should not be firing constantly at the same target.

- Brawlers and Backstabbers. I think this is where HeatDissapation vs HeatCap comes into play. Lights which do not have a lot of hardpoints, particularly energy hardpoints benefit from dissapation more than heat cap:
Ex: PIR with machine guns, Commando/MistLynx/JR7IIC with SRMs, Urbie/Raven with AC20
vs Energy Builds which use exclusively small or medium class lasers in high quantity want the higher cap, but also benefit from dissapation:
Ex: ACH/Wolfhound with Lasers
there are also mixed loadouts to consider:
Ex: ACH/Panther with SRMs and Lasers
The data I would seek on these builds on PTS compared to Live:
- DPS (both maximum and sustainable)
- Alpha Strike damage
- Time till Override/Shutdown
- Total Damage Dealt prior to Shutdown/Override
- Total Possible Damage based on munitions (for mechs with Ammo limitations)

I think the last stat is important to have on comparison. If a pilot is using an ammo dependent build, for game balance, better performance should be expected than an all energy build. Lights do not have tonnage to pack in 6 to 8 tons of munitions.

Navid A1, on 24 August 2018 - 09:28 AM, said:

You can write a long essay on combat tactics... but at the end of the day. Lights rely on their initial heat capacity to do any sort of fight, harassment and hit&run.
It is can also be proven mathematically, that lower heat capacity means less damage output in burst period engagements

At least thats my experience of piloting lights in the past 6 years... in solo, group, FP, and competitive tournaments.

I don't even know if you are serious when you make examples like AC20 ravens or SRM Cheetah/Panther

Regarding Builds, the point of a Test Server is to TEST. Not everyone will test ONLY what the Meta is on LIVE servers. I'm not saying EVERYTHING should be tested...most of what is garbage will stay garbage, but there might be some new gems out there.

As far as the math of a higher heat cap, Lights can easily be compensated through Heat Generation Quirks.

If you've really been playing 6 years you would have seen more than a few AC20 Ravens during Beta when the only other light mech choices were Jenner, Spider or Commando. I did not use it but it certainly seemed popular during Beta.

Sorry to waste a bunch of words on you, next time I'll post a pic of an ostrich sticking its head in the ground.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 24 August 2018 - 11:26 AM.

[Dungeon 206]

XkrX Dragoon, on 24 August 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

Well...this massively buffs builds that just rely on the 10 DHS in engine, so 90% of lights and mediums and most heavies...but most things with high alpha are still going to be largely unaffected, take the 3 er med 2 hvy large hellbringer build for example, it alphas for 44.3 heat, before skills. However, its now dissipating at 5 heat per second...its burned off 32.5 points of heat by the time the lasers are ready again...not including skills.

After skills, you are only generating 40.58 points of heat on that alpha, with a 57.5 max threshold, dissipating 5.5 heat per second. Now you have burned off 35.75 points of heat by the time your lasers have cooled off....you will have burned off everything you just fired one second after it coming off cooldown. Put it back to 40 -.-

mate i think 3 erML + 2 HLL is 50.9 heat points before skills......

[MechTech Dragoon]

Dungeon 206, on 24 August 2018 - 11:27 AM, said:

mate i think 3 erML + 2 HLL is 50.9 heat points before skills......

Er, was using mechdb.
It calculates the heat sunk while the laser goes through its duration as well in its alpha heat calculation. Didn't realize that till you said...nice feature now that i've noticed though.

Completely asspunks my little number splurge though

The build cools down to 10% by the time the hvy larges are off cd
That build can alpha 4 times consecutively on forest colony before going over the overheat threshold, which it doesn't go over enough by to do any damage to the mech. Looks like it only goes over by roughly 2% on the fourth consecutive shot.

Edited by XkrX Dragoon, 24 August 2018 - 11:52 AM.

[Khobai]

East Indy, on 24 August 2018 - 10:39 AM, said:

Increasing base cap to 50 nullified whatever changes to gameplay and loadout choice 2.0 accomplished. It's just too high. I watched an EBJ with all lasers cut apart the other team . . . on Terra Therma.

Of course. What did you think was gonna happen if you lowered heat cap?

Clan players are just switching to the lower heat CMPLs. And still running insane numbers of DHS.

And they can fire non-stop now, even on the hottest maps, because of the higher rate of dissipation.

This is exactly why trying to balance with a lower heatcap and higher dissipation doesnt work. Because it has glaring loopholes just like ghost heat. And it still doesnt address core balance issues like CDHS being vastly superior to ISDHS. clan mechs are still way better at energy builds than IS mechs. PGI has fixed nothing.

Edited by Khobai, 24 August 2018 - 12:16 PM.

[Navid A1]

Ok... now that I played a number of matches in the PTS, this is what I think with regards to heat:

• 50 heat cap in this PTS is pretty close to the perfect sweet spot. A great change from the previous iteration

• Brawlers now have access to some level of usable capacity to deal max dps, while having high enough dissipation to back it up during a prolonged fight

• Large heat/damage spike laser builds are still possible but require much more conservation in order to continue firing after the first alpha. This is excellent. pls keep this.

• PPC boats now have enough capacity to unload one or two full salvos before being limited by heat, This is a good change compared to Live and PTS2.0. You can't spam PPCs as much, but limits are also not so high that you can't even fire once.

• Light mechs behave much better compared to PTS 2.0, since they do not have access to large number of heat sinks and a lower heat cap limited their ability to use their max dps in the first 20 seconds of a fire fight, which is how most lights are played.

The changes in PTS are mainly emphasizing on boosting external heat sink performance to provide enough dissipation to push damage output towards a dps play style, rather than alpha. This means that dps builds that have access to large number of heat sinks will benefit the most.


This brings us to the Clan v IS balance issue.
IS mechs usually have much less number of double heat sinks due to size and tonnage limitations, and usually can't compete with clans in heat dissipation in prolonged dps oriented fights.

To solve this issue, and base on the simulations I showcased earlier, I think two options are feasible enough to implement for IS only:

Option 1: (I prefer this one):

• Increase the dissipation rate of innersphere internal engine heat sinks (0.25 for double and 0.16 for single)

and

• Change the innersphere external heat sinks to provide additional heat capacity (+1 cap for double and +0.5 cap for single)

Option 2:

• universally reduce the generated heat from innershpere energy weapons by 10%

This PTS really feels like a positive change. For the first time in 6 years, I feel that I'm testing something towards improvement.




Also... here are some of the comparisons you might find useful:

Spoiler

Edited by Navid A1, 25 August 2018 - 12:06 PM.

[Korz]

This last run on PTS feels almost the same as live but faster heat disapation. I prefer the previous heat cap of 40. It took more work to balance heat output. The current PTS even allows me to put out more damage on my laser builds the live so don't think that will make the stated goals of lowering alpha's or increasing TTK.

As for blancing heat between IS and Clan ( don't believe this is really needed with all the quirks IS gets) the simple and workable solution would be to increase the number of internal engine heat sinks that IS can carry and start allowing them to have internal heat sinks at 200 engine rating. So IS would have two more overall heat sinks vs clans. They would still have to pay the tonage for them but would save them internals as well as increase their heat disapation. You could say they get the extra heat sinks due to engine bulk if you feel the need.

I feel if you go back to the 40 heat cap then we can look at dumping ghost heat. If you use the current setup then ghost heat would have to be kept. Or you change really nothing but increasing the DPS of most builds.

I enjoyed the last PTS more then the current one.

[Navid A1]

Let me compare Live, PTS2.0 and PTS2.1 in simple terms:

Live: continuous tax-free high alphas (bad, negative effect on gameplay)- low TTK (bad)- weak brawlers (bad, not enough dissipation)

PTS 2.0: No alpha (bad, elimination of builds) - Hight TTK (good) - semi viable brawlers (good due to high dissipation, bad due to very limit heat cap) - Heavy hit to light mechs (horrible)

PTS 2.1: One free alpha (good, build preserved, can't continue firing high alphas) - Hight TTK (good) - strong brawlers (good, high dissipation and high cap) - light mechs are not hurt (good)


to me, PTS2.1 is a win right there

[Paul Inouye]

Hey folks, I'm going to ask to keep feedback in here to what's relevant on PTS at the moment. That's Heat Cap/Dissipation and 'Mech Agility.

Artemis/LRM/SRM/Streak/et al. can be discussed in future PTS sessions and updates.

[FupDup]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2018 - 12:36 PM, said:

Option 1: (I prefer this one):

• Increase the dissipation rate of innersphere internal engine heat sinks (0.25 for double and 0.16 for single)

and

• Change the innersphere external heat sinks to provide additional heat capacity (+1 cap for double and +0.5 cap for single)

Option 2:

• universally reduce the generated heat from innershpere energy weapons by 10%

I prefer the second option because it impacts the entire faction rather than just the mechs who can already afford to cram a lot of dubs. It's pretty reminiscent of the problem we just dealt with in PTS 2.0 where a lot of low-end mechs didn't get to benefit from the external DHS buff much if at all.

[Navid A1]

FupDup, on 24 August 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

I prefer the second option because it impacts the entire faction rather than just the mechs who can already afford to cram a lot of dubs. It's pretty reminiscent of the problem we just dealt with in PTS 2.0 where a lot of low-end mechs didn't get to benefit from the external DHS buff much if at all.

wouldn't you consider 0.25 dissipation of engine double heatsinks beneficial to the entire faction?

specially since it has maximized positive effects on low-end mechs without external dubs?

Also better engine heatsinks applies to all weapons rather than just energy.

Edited by Navid A1, 24 August 2018 - 01:33 PM.