17 replies to this topic

[Cy Mitchell]

The 50 (57.5 with skills) heat threshold is too high IMO.

The first thing I did after the PTS went live was to buy the Deathstrike and load it up with 2Gauss/2HLL/4erML for an Alpha of 94 XL355, 17DHS, apply skills and hit Terra Therma testing grounds. When I fired the Alpha strike at full speed I was able to hit for 94 damage and then immediately fire either the two Gauss off of cooldown or the four erML off of cooldown. That means that within about 5 seconds I was able to do either 124 damage or 122 damage while moving on one the the hottest maps in the game. After that huge Alpha you can keep firing the Gauss off of cooldown for 30 damage over and over until the Mech cools to the point that you can throw out the 94 Alpha again. The increased dissipation just makes that happen even faster.

I then switched to 2Gauss/6erML/20 DHS for an Alpha of 72. Firing this while moving at full speed on Terra Therma resulted in a 60% heat spike but dissipation was so fast that I could immediately fire a 2nd Alpha off of cooldown and just hit 85% heat. So that is 144 damage in about 5.5 seconds.

Next I took out a HBR with 2HLL/5erML/24 DHS and an Alpha of 71. Moving at full speed on Terra Therma and firing the Alpha resulted in 94% heat. I was able to then fire 3 erML off cooldown followed by the 2HLL/2erML. 24 DHS cools the Mech incredibly fast.

My first impression of this latest change is that I do not believe that these setting will do anything to control huge Alphas nor will they increase TTK. Perhaps a 45 heat cap plus reduce damage to 16 on HLL and 6 on erML would be a workable compromise.

Edited by Rampage, 24 August 2018 - 05:30 PM.

[Fluffinator]

Tried the 2.1 and it's perfect don't change a thing.
Tried a medium a heavy and 2 assaults and they all felt more fun.

[Sable]

I agree fully with you Rampage. I only played 2 matches to know 50 heatcap was way to high, so much so it makes the problems on live worse. I also played around with a bunch of mechs in the testing grounds but got bored quickly from how absurd everything performed.

[Kalleballe]

Agreed, tried my blawling huntsman with 5xsrm6 + 3 flamers and heat was not a problem at all. No longer have to compromise between heatsinks weapon or ammo, just load up on everything.
IMO heat need to go back to 40 to have an effect, 45 is just going to be like live.

[Eisenhorne]

Rampage, on 24 August 2018 - 05:04 PM, said:

The first thing I did after the PTS went live was to buy the Deathstrike and load it up with 2Gauss/2HLL/4erML for an Alpha of 94 XL355, 17DHS, apply skills and hit Terra Therma testing grounds. When I fired the Alpha strike at full speed I was able to hit for 94 damage and then immediately fire either the two Gauss off of cooldown or the four erML off of cooldown. That means that within about 5 seconds I was able to do either 124 damage or 122 damage while moving on one the the hottest maps in the game. After that huge Alpha you can keep firing the Gauss off of cooldown for 30 damage over and over until the Mech cools to the point that you can throw out the 94 Alpha again. The increased dissipation just makes that happen even faster.

Right.... but a Mad Cat II B with 2UAC10 + 2UAC5 can put out 60 point double-taps 3 times in a row in the same time, for 180 damage. What's your point? The 94 pt alpha will n ow cost you your ENTIRE heat bar. You can't burn off two of them in a row, which was the really scary part. Other mechs have better DPS. Yes, the alpha strike is big... but it's already an uncommon mech. I don't see the 2 HLL + 4 ERLL + 2 Gauss config very often in FP.

[Jackal Noble]

Eisenhorne, on 24 August 2018 - 10:25 PM, said:

Right.... but a Mad Cat II B with 2UAC10 + 2UAC5 can put out 60 point double-taps 3 times in a row in the same time, for 180 damage. What's your point? The 94 pt alpha will n ow cost you your ENTIRE heat bar. You can't burn off two of them in a row, which was the really scary part. Other mechs have better DPS. Yes, the alpha strike is big... but it's already an uncommon mech. I don't see the 2 HLL + 4 ERLL + 2 Gauss config very often in FP.

Right. The 94 alpha build is 2 gauss, 2HLL, 4 ERMLs. Further agreed, it is such a niche build, the more optimal build is 80 point 2ERLL, 4ERML gauss build. I entirely agree with what you are saying in a manner of speaking. The prime mech ironically enough that has been able to take advantage of the type of damage output is the HBR. I never in my wildest dreams would have imagined that it would be such an offender, but alas. It's Trifecta is having ECM.

TBH there are equally strong, nasty mechs out there. The MRM 60 quickdraw, despite the heat nerf on the 30s is still pretty disgusting for one.
I think over all if the heat cap is lowered to 45 or below with the right heat dissipation we can find a good overall balance.

[Cy Mitchell]

Eisenhorne, on 24 August 2018 - 10:25 PM, said:

Right.... but a Mad Cat II B with 2UAC10 + 2UAC5 can put out 60 point double-taps 3 times in a row in the same time, for 180 damage. What's your point? The 94 pt alpha will n ow cost you your ENTIRE heat bar. You can't burn off two of them in a row, which was the really scary part. Other mechs have better DPS. Yes, the alpha strike is big... but it's already an uncommon mech. I don't see the 2 HLL + 4 ERLL + 2 Gauss config very often in FP.

MY point was to try the extreme and see how it was affected by this change. My conclusion was that it wasn't. At a heat cap of 57.5 with skills there is very little change from LIVE except that the Mechs cool off a lot faster. If it is not going to attain the stated goals of controlling extreme Alphas, preventing large repeatable Alphas or raising TTK then I do not see the point of bothering to change anything.

[Fluffinator]

Rampage, on 25 August 2018 - 05:24 AM, said:

MY point was to try the extreme and see how it was affected by this change. My conclusion was that it wasn't. At a heat cap of 57.5 with skills there is very little change from LIVE except that the Mechs cool off a lot faster. If it is not going to attain the stated goals of controlling extreme Alphas, preventing large repeatable Alphas or raising TTK then I do not see the point of bothering to change anything.

It makes external heat sinks worth taking which gives you something other than just weapons and ammo to fill all those slots with. Each extra heat sink you take is 1-2 less ERML that you have room for.

[JadePanther]

Jackal Noble, on 24 August 2018 - 11:49 PM, said:

Right. The 94 alpha build is 2 gauss, 2HLL, 4 ERMLs. Further agreed, it is such a niche build, the more optimal build is 80 point 2ERLL, 4ERML gauss build. I entirely agree with what you are saying in a manner of speaking. The prime mech ironically enough that has been able to take advantage of the type of damage output is the HBR. I never in my wildest dreams would have imagined that it would be such an offender, but alas. It's Trifecta is having ECM.

TBH there are equally strong, nasty mechs out there. The MRM 60 quickdraw, despite the heat nerf on the 30s is still pretty disgusting for one.
I think over all if the heat cap is lowered to 45 or below with the right heat dissipation we can find a good overall balance.

I tried the mrm60 QD.. had very poor luck with it despite decent damage.. still just seemed like it wasent getting its potential.. went with a 2 mrm20 and 2 MPL and it performed much better.. didnt try the big MRM 60 cyclops

[Cy Mitchell]

I got a few matches in this evening. It took over an hour and a half to get 5 matches. I mostly faced Clan laser vomit and Clan Gauss/lasers. One guy brought LRMs but he was not a factor. I ran 2 games in TimberWolf with 8 MPL. I was able to Alpha all the lasers and eat the GH. Alpha on that is 56 and then I followed it with the 6 MPL for 42 and then the 6 for 42 before getting to 93 heat. Then I switched to a Linebacker which I had never run before. I ran 8 HML on the first match and fired 4 at a time. Then I switched to 3 MHL and 5 erML. With these I fired 3 and 5. Heat was never an issue but an Alpha on the 8 HML build was an immediate shutdown. The Mech was only partially skilled. After a Headshot by a dual Gauss Deathstrike, I decided to park it. My final match was in a 2HLL/5 erML Hellbringer. An Alpha takes it to 89% heat on Polar Highlands damage of 71. Of course, we drew Solaris City. I only used the Alpha once that match and just alternated the 2 HLL and 5 erML. On live I run this with only 4 erML.
Last I loaded up the 2Gauss/6erML Deathstrike but I could not get a game after 15 minutes of waiting in queue so that will have to wait until tomorrow.

I saw a Piranha (twice), a Commando and a Huntsman. Everything else was Heavy or Assault.

[SPNKRGrenth]

I would have to agree that 45 heat cap is probably the sweet spot, 51.75 with max heat containment. I would add though that 40 heat cap, 46 with heat containment, felt too low.

IS double heat sinks should probably get a slight cooling boost, .21 or .22 heat dissipation to balance out the larger size.

I do really like having heat sinks fully focused on cooling heat instead of split between cooling heat and storing it, as it both feels better to play, and is more accurate to the function of what a heat sink does.

[Cy Mitchell]

Eisenhorne, on 24 August 2018 - 10:25 PM, said:

Right.... but a Mad Cat II B with 2UAC10 + 2UAC5 can put out 60 point double-taps 3 times in a row in the same time, for 180 damage. What's your point? The 94 pt alpha will n ow cost you your ENTIRE heat bar. You can't burn off two of them in a row, which was the really scary part. Other mechs have better DPS. Yes, the alpha strike is big... but it's already an uncommon mech. I don't see the 2 HLL + 4 ERLL + 2 Gauss config very often in FP.

I was honestly curious about this so I bought the Mad Cat II B to try it out. The only MCII I actually own is the 1 and the 2 and I had never tried them in a game. Anyway, I loaded the B up with 2UAC10/2UAC5/2erML/16DHS for an indicated Alpha of 44. With double tap it could potentially be 74. I then took it into testing grounds to test whether it can actually do 180 damage in 5 or so seconds. Out of about 15 runs of moving at full speed and firing Alp[has off of cooldown I had exactly 1 where I did not have at least one weapon jam on double tap. Most of the time I had two and even three of the UAC s jam. So in theory it can do 180+ damage in 5 seconds but in reality it won't. It took about 4 Alphas to overheat but that is with multiple jams. This build would still be good with a 45 heat cap.

I do really like the build and will be using it in some PTS matches.

[Cy Mitchell]

Busy weekend so I had very little time for more testing. I am hoping to get some more matches this afternoon to qualify for the rewards on both my main and my alt. Right now I am just watching the little wait thingy spin.

I did manage to get a bit more time on Terra Therma testing builds here and there. I choose the hottest map (6% heat with movement) and in game matches to test PTS changes related to heat because I want to know how a Mech will perform in the worse case scenario heat-wise.

I am still of the opinion that the 50 heat cap (57.5 with skills) is not accomplishing the goals set forth by PGI.

1. Curtail extreme Alpha Damage (Fail) - Huge Alphas are still possible and can be followed immediately with bracket fire without interruption from heat. For example, 94 Alpha followed immediately off weapon cooldown with either 4 erml (28) or 2Gauss (30)

2. Prevent repeating of Large Alphas back to back (Fail) - Large Alphas are still repeatable. You can Alpha back to back on Terra Therma moving at full speed with a Deathstrike with 2Gauss/6 erML (Alpha 72) or 2 Gauss/1 HLL/5erML (Alpha 83 but HLL does not fire on 2nd shot so it is 65 damage) and then follow either with 2 Gauss off weapon cooldown.

3. Increased TTK (Fail) - While the increased mobility on some Mechs may help, the current changes to heat capacity and dissipation will not. Large repeatable Alphas will still exist, really large Alphas still exist and DPS is actually increasing due to increased dissipation.

I am in the camp that wants to see all the above goals attained. For that to happen, I believe that the heat threshold must be lowered from Live. The current changes are too close to the status quo to any significant improvements. I believe 40 heatcap may have been a bit too restrictive and 50 is too generous. I like that increased heat capacity has been removed from heatsinks. Their function should always have been removal of excess heat, not additional heat storage.

Other possible solutions to look at in conjunction with the heatsink changes would be that external heatsinks could have a different dissipation rate than internal engine heatsinks and possibly raising the heat generation node values for the IS even more (.8-.85%?) to compensate for the heavier weight of IS DHS and weapons. The first proposal would help some Light and Medium Mechs with limited tonnage and slots for additional external heatsinks. The second would help balance Clan vs IS equipment differences.

I will finish getting my matches but I do not expect my conclusions about this PTS to change much today. I am still optimistic that a compromise can be reached that will make a positive change for MWO gameplay.

Edited by Rampage, 28 August 2018 - 11:53 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

I finally managed to get a nice string of games to qualify for the rewards on my main and get a few games on my alt account. I will try to log back in with my alt and get the rewards on it tonight.

I can see why the folks that do not want Alphas reduced, do not want TTK increased and just want more mobility, like this PTS. I believe heat is much easier to manage on this PTS than it is on live.

I ran Assaults today which I never do on live. Tonight, I want to pull out some of my go to Heavy, Medium and Light Mechs and give them a try. I have also already tried the TBR, HBR and LBK in PTS matches. The laser vomit HBR went fine as did the laser vomit TBR but the Linebacker tanked with the build I tried to run on it. It was definitely not suited for brawling ranges and is not a good build on Live but I thought "eh, it is PTS! What the hell!".

[Cy Mitchell]

I finished out my testing last night. I ran Stormcrows, Novas and a favorite Hellbringer build that is a bit off the beaten path. All of them worked pretty much exactly like they do on Live once I changed up the Skill Tree a bit.

One thing that has become clear is that with 2.1 the operation tree has become much more important and in particular the Heat Containment nodes are now a requisite for most Mechs. On Live I often took Heat Generation nodes and Cool Run nodes but skipped the Heat Containment nodes that I could on most of my builds. On PTS, I have re-skilled almost every one of my builds and selected all the Heat Generation and Heat Containment nodes to offset the loss of additional heat capacity on the heatsinks.

I do like the changes to the heatsinks. They should have never added to the heat capacity, IMO. Making the Operation Tree more vital is fine with me also. The problem that I continue to see in PTS 2.1 is that it does not achieve the goals. There is not enough of a difference from Live to make it worth the effort. Taking all the time and using up all the C-Bills and GXP to change up the skills for all my builds to get what amounts to basically no significant change from Live to a 2.1 Live would just irritate me. I want there to be a change but I want it to be worth the effort and cost to the players.


Recommend: Try a 45 cap. Examine Heat Containment node values.
Recommend2: Alternately, go ahead and use the 50 heat cap but use some of the damage reduction like PTS 1.0. For example, reduce damage on HLL (15 dam) and cerML (6.5 dam) while maintaining heat at the current level. That will dial back the vomit builds a bit. That, in combination, with the DHS changes might result in a noticeable change.

Edited by Rampage, 28 August 2018 - 12:05 PM.

[Foxtwat]

My two cents after running 10 games for the reward:

Heat Cap was a nice change. Mobility changes are appreciated as well. Though I am still disappointed in JJ on Assaults. Is there a way to make the 90/100 tonners actually feel like they are jumping rather than just hovering there? As they are now, JJ are a way to navigate terrain these behemoths ought to just be able to step over.

Buff Heavy/Assault Jump Jets.

Thanks

[Reno Blade]

Rampage, on 28 August 2018 - 04:27 AM, said:

I finished out my testing last night. I ran Stormcrows, Novas and a favorite Hellbringer build that is a bit off the beaten path. All of them worked pretty much exactly like they do on Live once I changed up the Skill Tree a bit.

One thing that has become clear is that with 2.1 the operation tree has become much more important and in particular the Heat Containment nodes are now a requisite for most Mechs. On Live I often took Heat Generation nodes and Cool Run nodes but skipped the Heat Containment nodes that I could on most of my builds. On PTS, I have re-skilled almost every one of my builds and selected all the Heat Generation and Heat Containment nodes to offset the loss of additional heat capacity on the heatsinks.

I do like the changes to the heatsinks. They should have never added to the heat capacity, IMO. Making the Operation Tree more vital is fine with me also. The problem that I continue to see in PTS 2.1 is that it does not achieve the goals. There is not enough of a difference from Live to make it worth the effort. Taking all the time and using up all the C-Bills and GXP to change up the skills for all my builds to get what amounts to basically no significant change from Live to a 2.1 Live would just irritate me. I want there to be a change but I want it to be worth the effort and cost to the players.


Recommend: Try a 45 cap. Examine Heat Containment node values.

I also feel that the operations tree is nearly mandatory now with the lower cap and higher dissipation.
A HBR with 2x HLL, and 4x ERML shut down without skills, but with all skills into Ops and Weapons it's only going to 72-80% (depending on map).

In my opinion, the skill tree should have much more points per tree to really go deep down on only one or max two paths.
Then you could really invest into specializing.
Nowadays you "only" get 10-15% of something, but then also 15% of this and 20% of that and some extras.

If you would only be able to get 20-50% of ONE of EACH "category" only:
Operations

• heat dissipation increase
  
• heat capacity increase
  
• heat generation reduction
  
• heat scale effect reduction (e.g. Battletech heatscale reducing mobility over 50% heat by 5% up to 70% reduction on 90% heat)
  
• turn rate only
  
• twist rate and pitch rate
  
• twist range and pitch range max
  
• acceleration and deceleration only
  
• JJet performance (speed, fuel, cooldown, heat)

Defense:

• armor
  
• structure
  
• ammo explosion damage reduction (incl Gauss)
  
• crit chance and crit damage reduction
  
• AMS dmg increase and LAMS heat reduction

Weapons:

• cooldown reduction
  
• range increase
  
• duration (beam/volley/burst/chargetime)
  
• precision (velocity/spread)
  
• ammo increase
  
• crit chance increase
  
• crit damage increase

Sensors:

• sensor range increase (how far away you can target mechs)
  
• mech sensor-profile reduction (own mech targetable) (from the InfoWar PTS, how far away your mech can be targeted)
  
• radar deprivation (max 75%)
  
• lock on speed and target info speed (also from InfoWar PTS, how fast you can lock/target/scan a target)
  
• ECM targeting-slow effect (also from InfoWar PTS, ECM provides soft-counter only to increase time to target the mechs under ECM, not prevent it)
  
• Artemis, TAG, Narc, UAV bonus (duration/range/speeds...)

But that's not for an easy change, i fear and probably too much to ask for in this round of balancing.