27 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

Sable Dove, on 26 August 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

I disagree that 50 is a good spot for the heat cap. Especially when they didn't really buff internal heat sinks, resulting in a general buff to heavier mechs. In fact, from your own charts, not only are many of the most effective builds barely affected in terms of burst damage, but many of them actually have higher sustained DPS than before.

None of them have lower alpha strikes either. The heat cap at 50 does virtually nothing to curb high alphas except on mechs that were impractical to begin with.

I didn’t participate in the 40 cap test because I was too disgusted at the fact that while it nerffed the dreaded 96 point boogeyman builds that no one plays, it also nerfed just about everything I, even as a mediocre brawl player, also play. Nerfing everything to address a few things is a habbit of PGI’s that just drives me nuts.

I initially had the same view of 2.1 and the 50 point cap in that I still don’t consider (and I say this as a potato that is more a target of these builds than one who can use them effectively) the ultra high alphas that PGI is fixated on to be of a concern (Speaking of that fixation, in the RJBass interview of Chris at the beginning of the year Chris said the MCII wasn’t even a “top tier” performer. What changed to make it and a couple other mechs their boggeyman of balance? Nerfing everything else since then? Hmm. But I digress) and so I still don’t want the mechs I play to get smacked in any way because of that fixation.

But I gotta admit after playing on the PTS, the 50 point cap is growing on me. I tried some high alpha stuff, that I don’t normally play, and they still seemed workable, even for me. I tried some of my regular builds, and they seemed not only fine, but in some cases better. Then I tried a bunch of old builds and goofy builds and builds only a dope like me would try, and they were effective to a degree, and in some cases to a far greater degree, than they are on the live server.

So while I was -and kind of still am- against these changes on principle, I have come to believe that of all the things PGI has proposed of late to further muck with the game even more than they already have this year, this is one change I think I would be ok with. I might even come to outright appreciate it given more time to play with it (like on the live server).

[krevLL]

In 2.0 with the 40 heat cap, clan Medium Pulses were too hot to use very effectively in a brawl, but older builds like a 4xSRM6+AIV 4xSPL Timberwolf wrecked pretty much anything you brawled against. With 40+ SHS you almost had enough dissipation to alpha 2xcERLL 6xcERML though. That is to say, the buffed heat dissipation almost got rid of enough heat during the laser burn to make that alphastrike viable.

*Edit to add*
I still feel like out of all the proposed methods so far this comes closest to being an excellent solution without alienating essentially everyone. I'll reiterate that I was a big fan of 2.0, and while I'm concerned that I can still run the 78 damage clan alpha (and in conjunction, the 108 alpha including dual Gauss) with a 50 heat cap without a real "penalty", it's a much softer blow to actual brawling builds. They may have to up UAC jam chances and perhaps increase large Autocannons cooldown a bit to keep it in line with DPH/DPT though. We'll see.

Edited by krevLL, 27 August 2018 - 10:30 AM.

[Rydiak Randborir]

The "penalty" to laservomit is it CANNOT alpha a second time without a drastic increase in re-fire time, unless you want to shutdown or blow yourself up.

[Y E O N N E]

It's not a drastic increase for Heavy Large-wielding 'Mechs; the extra time is essentially the time you'd spend returning to cover, coming back out of cover, and acquiring a target anyway.. For a Hellbringer with 25 DHS, it's ready to fire again a mere two seconds after the Heavy Large is done cooling down. For trading 'Mechs, that's nothing.

And what you can do with laser boats on PTS that you can't do on Live is remain engaged with more effective output, since it now takes less time between alphas from the top of the heat-scale.

Honestly, I'm not sure I'd say the PTS 2.1 values are a net nerf to trading, with Clan laser vomit, feels more like a stealth buff to me given how they usually fire with longer gaps between volleys than the cycle time of the weapons. It's really pulse boats that get hit the hardest, and IS vomit for similar reasons.

[Rydiak Randborir]

2nd-alpha re-fire time isn't the only thing affected by PTS 2.1, but also damage before overheat. Using a skilled out MAD-IIC for example with 2 LPL and 6 ERML, on Live you can fire ~2.68 (depending on exact skill build) alphas before overheat, doing 177.51 damage. On PTS 2.1 that becomes 1.72 alphas before overheat, doing 113.35 damage. For comparison, a heatcap of 45 drops the alphas to 1.60 before overheat, doing 105.83 damage, and a heatcap of 40 drops that to .91 alphas (e.g. can't alpha ever), doing 60.14 damage. An unskilled MAD-IIC with that build, with heatcap set at 45, would overheat 89% of the way through the first alpha; and with heatcap set at 50, would overheat 99% of the way through the first alpha (this would be possible on a cold map though).

So on PTS 2.1, not only are vomit mechs easier to push down (they need to wait longer before they can alpha again on an empty heat-bar at a pushing mech), but they also have lower max damage output. It isn't until about 30 seconds of combat that the dissipation buffs finally see a benefit of PTS 2.1 surpassing Live in damage output, raising the MAD-IIC from 7.18 sustained DPS (Live) to 8.80 sustained DPS (PTS 2.1). 30 seconds of sustained combat in an alpha vomit mech is bad news when facing a brawler.

The lower you set heatcap, the more you take the "vomit" out of the vomit archetype. And thus, you invalidate the point of the build and make the game purely a DPS race, which is what Energy Draw did and was rightly criticized for it.

Edited by Rydiak, 27 August 2018 - 06:46 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

I find that to be a largely academic study that doesn't reflect application. Unless you've been sitting on your thumbs during the match, you are not going to be at 0% heat in your trading 'Mech, ready to receive the push, and you may not even have a Coolshot left over. From 100% heat it's going to be 8.13 seconds between alphas on PTS 2.1. On Live, it's 9.8 seconds between full shots from 100%. Since the push is liable to happen after you've already been trading for awhile, I'd rather have the PTS version than the Live one.


FWIW, the total cycle time of the HLL on my HBR build is 6.8 seconds (10% duration reduction, 6% cooldown, everything heat-related is maxed). I only need 8.13 seconds to dissipate the remaining 44.7 heat after my burn is done, which is less than 2 seconds after the 5.4 second cool-down of the HLL. In trading terms, those 2 seconds are largely irrelevant because I probably haven't even exposed and selected a target yet. It cools off so fast, even, that expending a coolshot is almost a waste of C-bills because the gun won't even be ready to fire.


So while I don't disagree that the brawler still wins in the extended engagement, the reality is that an unchecked laser-vomit 'Mech is going to be a much larger threat as the match wears on under the PTS stats than on Live, because it has shorter intervals between potential shots. AKA, it's even stronger in its primary use-case than it is on Live. Regardless for my preference on the matter, that seems counter to the original intent outlined when the alpha strike reduction initiative started, which was to A.) increase the trade-offs for taking Clan laser vomit, and B.) reduce the gap between IS and Clan laser vomit.

[Rydiak Randborir]

But if on PTS 2.1 the heatcap is lower than Live, and you dissipate heat faster than on Live, wouldn't you consistently be at a lower heat compared to Live? Does that not mean my "academic study" retains its merit that PTS 2.1 alpha vomit mechs cannot alpha vomit as well compared to Live, and thusly can be considered "nerfed" for purposes of showing that PTS 2.1 was effective in that regard? And in regards to dissipation, all other mech archetypes (not just alpha vomit), receive a buff.

It feels like we are arguing two-sides of the same coin.

Edited by Rydiak, 27 August 2018 - 07:11 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Rydiak, on 27 August 2018 - 07:06 PM, said:

But if on PTS 2.1 the heatcap is lower than Live, and you dissipate heat faster than on Live, wouldn't you consistently be at a lower heat compared to Live?

Does the % of cap really matter at all? I feel like it's a great, big, red herring that everybody is getting hung up on. Yeah, you can't burst a target down as rapidly, but TBQH if you are bursting a target down that fast...either that target made a mistake or you made a mistake and are blowing a coolshot to get out of jail.

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Does that not mean my "academic study" retains its merit that PTS 2.1 alpha vomit mechs cannot alpha vomit as well compared to Live, and thusly can be considered "nerfed" for purposes of showing that PTS 2.1 was effective in that regard? And in regards to dissipation, all other mech archetypes (not just alpha vomit), receive a buff.

Other builds don't derive the same value out of that dissipation buff, though, and they also sustained the same nerf to heat cap (which honestly completely borks over how some of you guys are analyzing the 30-second window).

Mind you, I don't really think laser vomit builds getting a buff would be a bad thing, since the game right now seems to favor higher-sustain builds anyway. I'm really more concerned that the change does...nothing...to address Clan vs. IS in any capacity. It doesn't make Clans better in the brawl, and it doesn't make IS better in the trade. IS vomit still has all of the same drawbacks that make it less desirable than Clan vomit when you are given the choice of either one, except on Lights.

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It feels like we are arguing two-sides of the same coin.

We sort of are, my stance is really that the situation you guys are saying it's going to be weaker in is an edge case outside of the core gameplay loop with high-alpha laser vomit, and therefore it's not much of a nerf at all. It is a big deal for pulse-boats (and IS vomit), which can't really use their short cycle time because dissipation is still slower than cycle and there is no room in the cap to fire again, and because pulse boats typically engage for longer windows than ER vomit does.