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Give Gauss Heat


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#1 MechaBattler

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Posted 26 August 2018 - 09:40 AM

How about give them heat when you're firing more than one? With them lowering the heat cap. It would make sense to penalize them with heat. Gauss is already getting spanked three ways to sunday with limitations. Heat is the most straightforward nerf. And this way an individual gauss isn't punished. Obviously H-Gauss would get a larger heat penalty and L-Gauss less or none, giving them a possible niche.

Thoughts?

Edited by MechaBattler, 26 August 2018 - 09:40 AM.


#2 Reno Blade

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Posted 26 August 2018 - 11:31 AM

I was always thinking it need to have some base heat added and some GH for multi shots.
At least a bit to reduce the perfect synergy with energy weapons, so that other ballistics don't get totally left behind by this synergy.

e.g. Gauss heat ~2-3 (from 1) (ammo up to 15 from 10)
CGauss ~3-4 (from 1) (ammo stays at 10)
HGauss heat 5 (from 2) (ammo up to 7 from 5)

and if we would add GH for a second Gauss, it should add just enough to add another 5 heat or so.
Then we could even have Gauss+PPC back if the Gauss itself had more base heat and GH for dual-Gauss, as it would be closer to AC10s in heat generation.

But that's me and I always want some kind of anti-boating penalty.

#3 Sable Dove

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Posted 26 August 2018 - 02:30 PM

They just need to reduce the max simultaneous charge to 1 at a time, and if that's not enough, make it so firing any other weapons will disrupt the charge. That way, not only is dual gauss not a problem, but it also can't be fired in an alpha with other weapons, lowering long-term DPS. This may be a bit far, but for a no-heat weapon with high pinpoint damage, it's fitting. Maybe a little buff to compensate if this goes too far.

#4 Quicksilver Kalasa

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Posted 26 August 2018 - 04:57 PM

The heat should probably be a bit more significant than 2-3 (something similar to AC20s) given with this we could remove the stupid charge up limit and the fragility/explosion of the weapon. My guess would be 5-6 for IS and 6-7.5 for Clan, Light Gauss can have it raised to something like 2-3 because it really doesn't matter on that weapon and Heavy Gauss should be a pretty solid chunk of heat (7.5-10) given its current power.

The ammo count doesn't need to be upped either, it's fine as is.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 August 2018 - 04:58 PM.


#5 Ragedog4

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Posted 26 August 2018 - 05:29 PM

https://mwomercs.com...s-fixing-gauss/

talked about this a little here, but TLDR: Gauss in real life actually produces A LOT of heat. So much it tends to melt internal equipment. Since we are dealing with Future tech we can just say they fixed that problem with an internal HeatSink in the Gauss but that still does not mean the Gauss is not hot. In fact real Gauss Heats up with the Charge before firing. Very similar to the Charge we have. So why not give a heat with that charge that stays as long as you are chagred (before you fire). Would that work?

#6 Quicksilver Kalasa

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Posted 26 August 2018 - 05:57 PM

View PostRagedog4, on 26 August 2018 - 05:29 PM, said:

talked about this a little here, but TLDR: Gauss in real life actually produces A LOT of heat. So much it tends to melt internal equipment.

While RL in this case supports the argument for heat to be added to Gauss, I want to make it clear that balance and mechanics trump whatever is in reality. If a change is inspired by real life and fits within the mechanics of the game then fine, but I don't want this to derail into discussion about how things are in real life because in the end, that doesn't matter. What does matter is that Gauss breaks the single system aimed at controlling damage output, heat. Due to it circumventing heat, a bunch of other mechanics have been tacked on in an effort to control Gauss and at the end of the day it has been simply flawed and caused more issues than it has helped.

In other words, we need to finally give Gauss heat and dropped all the tacked on mechanics aimed at balancing it (outside of Gauss charge-up because firing behavior flavor is important). Basing heat of charge up also doesn't really make sense given how Gauss works (only stays charged-up for a certain period) and can in fact make the 2 skills aimed at extending that charge up worthless (since now they would incur heat penalties). Just make it based on firing the weapon and be done with it, after all the whole point of heat is to limit damage, not limit charging a weapon up (and having the charge up in the first place is more of a limiting factor than adding heat to the charge).

#7 Rampage

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:23 AM

Gauss is the 11,000 LB elephant sitting in the corner when trying to control big instant damage. PGI has already made a Ghost Heat group for it and PPCs so now everyone is using it with things like multiple ML, erML, LL, LPL and HLL. If they truly want to control it then either they are probably going to have to give it more significant heat or they are going to have to look at some more Ghost Heat pairings.

#8 Cypherdrene

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 09:32 AM

Gauss should generate Heat if the Heat cap is 45-50, the alternative being 1 Gauss per charge.
No nerf is necessary for Heat cap @ 40, it already nerfs the lasers.

#9 doctormanuse

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 09:58 AM

I would suggest to implement a forced shut down when firing to may gauss rifles at the same time. The reactor is simply not powferfull enough to charge the weapons at the same time. Getting the engine quicker back online could be done through the skill tree with already existing knotes.

I get the argument that real gauss rifles produce a lot of heat, but in BT Gauss has always been the very cold weapon. I wouldn't divert to much from it.

#10 Quicksilver Kalasa

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 10:07 AM

View Postdoctormanuse, on 27 August 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

BT Gauss has always been the very cold weapon. I wouldn't divert to much from it.

Good thing this isn't TT and confined to TT rules huh?

Sorry, but having a weapon that requires its own special system to limit damage because it circumvents the very system that was designed for that across all weapons is dumb.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 August 2018 - 10:11 AM.


#11 Cypherdrene

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 10:47 AM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2018 - 10:07 AM, said:

Good thing this isn't TT and confined to TT rules huh?

Sorry, but having a weapon that requires its own special system to limit damage because it circumvents the very system that was designed for that across all weapons is dumb.


GR's are already limited to 2, remember the 4xGR KDK? nerfed!. So limiting to 1 is basically an extension of that, though it wouldn't be my choice, I rather have 40 heat cap.

#12 Tesunie

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 10:48 AM

View PostRagedog4, on 26 August 2018 - 05:29 PM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...s-fixing-gauss/

talked about this a little here, but TLDR: Gauss in real life actually produces A LOT of heat. So much it tends to melt internal equipment. Since we are dealing with Future tech we can just say they fixed that problem with an internal HeatSink in the Gauss but that still does not mean the Gauss is not hot. In fact real Gauss Heats up with the Charge before firing. Very similar to the Charge we have. So why not give a heat with that charge that stays as long as you are chagred (before you fire). Would that work?


From what I read (have to admit, very little), Coil guns (Gauss Rifles) take up a lot of energy, but seem to produce low heat when used for fast velocity. Rail guns though produce lots of heat and eventually can warp and melt their rails requiring replacement of the rails.

At the speeds BT Gauss are flying at, I'm going to presume it's more of an energy issue than a heat issue. So the weapon itself appears to produce little heat.

HOWEVER! This is where BT seems to go wrong a bit. Though energy production isn't much of a concern, when a fusion reactor draws power off itself in BT, it produces heat. That is why lasers produce so much heat, from the energy they draw from the reactor. Walking takes energy draw, so it too produces heat. In that theory, the Gauss Rifle really should produce large heat spikes, as they draw from the reactor to recharge their capacitors (unless it's like a trickle charge, which it doesn't appear to be).

So, even by BT lore, it seems odd that the GR doesn't produce more heat in the game system as it recharges it's capacitors. Only way I can see it is if the capacitors are charging off a low charge, drawing little energy from the reactor over a longer duration. Given even in BT lore they basically can shoot every 10 seconds, that doesn't seem very likely to "trickle charge" that quickly. It also wouldn't explain why in lore firing two Gauss cause brownouts in a battlemech's systems from the energy draw required, making it incapable of shooting more than two at a single time. (But, given a BT game turn is 10 seconds, you can shoot more than two within ten seconds.)

It does appear to be a bit of a contradiction from within the lore material itself...

#13 Quicksilver Kalasa

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 11:19 AM

View PostCypherdrene, on 27 August 2018 - 10:47 AM, said:

GR's are already limited to 2, remember the 4xGR KDK? nerfed!. So limiting to 1 is basically an extension of that, though it wouldn't be my choice, I rather have 40 heat cap.

Sure, but again, that's the stupid mechanic meant to do the same thing that heat ALREADY does, but only for Gauss rifles. Heat cap doesn't change the broken nature of Gauss.

#14 Cypherdrene

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 02:02 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

Sure, but again, that's the stupid mechanic meant to do the same thing that heat ALREADY does, but only for Gauss rifles. Heat cap doesn't change the broken nature of Gauss.


I never said it did (and if you read my reply, I'm actually against 1 charge only), but it does reduce the constant Alpha striking capabilities of mechs like the Gauss+Vomit Deathstrike and DWF, BAS can use the same build but it's arms are too low to be as effective. Even 40 cap can actually allow for 80 point Alpha with enough skills, but the mech would have to fully cooldown and invest a lot of points in Ops, hindering the build somewhere else.

The PTS Alpha series is precisely to reduce Alpha damage, not to add more heat or other weapons mechanics. PGI has already made most weapons hotter, if the problem persists, they could add +2 heat to Gauss and quite literally make any Clan Gauss+Vomit too hot for a second alpha, even with skills.

#15 Quicksilver Kalasa

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 02:04 PM

View PostCypherdrene, on 27 August 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

The PTS Alpha series is precisely to reduce Alpha damage

You know what brings down alphas? More heat (it also reduces DPS). Saying something is off-limits because heat capacity is the only thing that is changeable is a bit dumb don't you think, especially given that heat capacity has almost ZERO impact on Gauss usage.

If heat generation is off-limits, by your logic, so too should charge-up limits so the whole conversation is moot anyway I guess (again, by your logic).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 August 2018 - 02:07 PM.


#16 Cypherdrene

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Posted 28 August 2018 - 06:17 AM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

You know what brings down alphas? More heat (it also reduces DPS). Saying something is off-limits because heat capacity is the only thing that is changeable is a bit dumb don't you think, especially given that heat capacity has almost ZERO impact on Gauss usage.

If heat generation is off-limits, by your logic, so too should charge-up limits so the whole conversation is moot anyway I guess (again, by your logic).



Quote

PGI has already made most weapons hotter, if the problem persists, they could add +2 heat to Gauss and quite literally make any Clan Gauss+Vomit too hot for a second alpha, even with skills.
- self quoted

I actually agreed with you, but we can't ask PGI to nerf a weapon right away without further testing or until they make a final decision on heat cap and dissipation rates... in the end, feedback doesn't always make it to Live.

We HAVE to wait for the veredict on 2.0/2.1 and then request the changes, if needed.

#17 Khobai

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 01:43 AM

2-3 heat is a joke. That fixes nothing.

If AC20 is 6 heat then Gauss should obviously be set at 7 or 8 heat. Because it has significantly longer range and velocity. You can argue the damage is lower under 270m, however Gauss does 15 damage at a much greater range than the AC20 is capable of.

I would also remove chargeup on Gauss. And either set its ghost heat to 3 or remove its linkage with PPCs entirely. If Gauss generates significant heat theres no reason it cant be paired up with PPCs again

Edited by Khobai, 01 September 2018 - 01:51 AM.


#18 Reno Blade

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 11:40 AM

View PostKhobai, on 01 September 2018 - 01:43 AM, said:

2-3 heat is a joke. That fixes nothing.

If AC20 is 6 heat then Gauss should obviously be set at 7 or 8 heat. Because it has significantly longer range and velocity. You can argue the damage is lower under 270m, however Gauss does 15 damage at a much greater range than the AC20 is capable of.

I would also remove chargeup on Gauss. And either set its ghost heat to 3 or remove its linkage with PPCs entirely. If Gauss generates significant heat theres no reason it cant be paired up with PPCs again

I guess the base heat could be pushed past the 3 heat for Gauss.

But where I disagree strongly is the charge.
Gauss Charge provides some flavor, a bit of a downside/trade off and also simulates the "min-range" of BT.
Having some kind of damage min-range zone like the PPCs does not make sense for a Gauss, but having the charge on the gauss is exactly providing the "difficulty" modifier in melee range that the BT table top had.

With that said, I would personally aim for something like this:
1 heat for LGauss,
4 heat for Gauss,
5 for CGauss and
7 for HGauss
keep charge (personally no-go to remove charge)
keep all other stats (explosion, ammo, cooldown, velocity...)
keep GH for PPC+Gauss

and in addition also tweak AC10s and 20s for the IS to have a bit less heat overall and less hps with higher dps (maybe 15% less), maybe reduce AC20 cooldown and heat both by 10-20% overall to make it more worth, but keep Gauss long cooldown
and we can even think of tweaking PPC's velocity/heat/cd for a small buff.

#19 Khobai

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Posted 05 September 2018 - 11:00 PM

View PostReno Blade, on 02 September 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

Having some kind of damage min-range zone like the PPCs does not make sense for a Gauss


Min range shouldnt exist on PPCs either, or any weapon for that matter. Its just not a fun mechanic.

View PostReno Blade, on 02 September 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

having the charge on the gauss is exactly providing the "difficulty" modifier in melee range that the BT table top had.


I disagree with game mechanics that exist solely as skill barriers. There is no reason to discourage new players from using Gauss by placing it behind a skill barrier. Chargeup is a bad mechanic in its current form. It exists only to frustrate players and make them jump through extra hoops to fire the weapon.

IMO chargeup is not implemented in a way thats at all interesting or fun. Chargeup would make more sense if Gauss rifles had variable levels of charge. Like if you could fire them immediately for half damage or charge them up for full damage.

View PostReno Blade, on 02 September 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

1 heat for LGauss,
4 heat for Gauss,
5 for CGauss and
7 for HGauss


HGauss needs to either be limited to firing one at a time or have ghost heat on firing 2 at a time.

You cant fire two AC20s without ghost heat. Heavy Gauss should be no different.

Although both AC20 and Heavy Gauss should be buffed as singleton weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 05 September 2018 - 11:07 PM.


#20 Quicksilver Kalasa

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Posted 06 September 2018 - 08:44 AM

View PostKhobai, on 05 September 2018 - 11:00 PM, said:

I disagree with game mechanics that exist solely as skill barriers.

Why, why is making some weapons have a higher skill curve bad exactly? Lasers are easier to use so does that mean everything needs to be hitscan since every other projectile weapon has a higher skill barrier?

That said, as I've pointed out SEVERAL times it isn't just a skill barrier, it limits the scenarios in which Gauss can be used because you can't snapfire. That limitation impacts brawling more so than poking since the pacing of those sorts of fights is different.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 September 2018 - 08:47 AM.






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