64 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 October 2018 - 07:45 PM, said:

Desyncing from PPCs is not at all why the Gauss has a charging mechanic.

It has that for several reasons, the primary reason was because it was being used too often and too well in brawls as a low heat weapon replacement/add-on over other weapons (such as the AC10/20). One of the smaller (much smaller) reasons was to better desync it from PPC, more as a "it also helps there" more than a "this is why we made this change".

Though at the time of the announcement of an incoming charge mechanic, a lot of people wanted it on the PPC rather than the Gauss...

[Y E O N N E]

But Gauss charge does nothing whatsoever to desync the weapon from PPCs, so...no. It doesn't help there at all.

[Tesunie]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 October 2018 - 10:40 PM, said:

But Gauss charge does nothing whatsoever to desync the weapon from PPCs, so...no. It doesn't help there at all.

It only made it more difficult. It was a side effect for trying to get it so that the Gauss was no longer a brawling weapon. Where as PPCs have their 90m minimum range (or extremely high heat levels).

The charge mechanic doesn't stop PPC and Gauss use, but it makes it more difficult. Agreed it wasn't added to desync the two.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Give PPCs Ammo.

[Tesunie]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 October 2018 - 07:31 AM, said:

Give PPCs Ammo.

Adjusting heat for a weapon is not entirely unheard of in this game. Medium lasers are suppose to be 3 heat for 5 damage, but in this game they are (for the sake of balance) 5 heat to 5 damage.

However, adding ammo requirements to a weapons that by lore never requires ammo is an unheard of concept.


If you are against Gauss heat being increased from 1 heat to a higher value, just say so. Bonus points if you also state a reasonable accounting as for why you would be against such a change.

[Alienized]

as per lore, gauss rifles didnt produce alot of heat so no change to that. PPC's are offset already by having alot less tonnage than gauss rifles and we forget that you pretty much never should fire more than 2 ppc's at once anyway. some people actually fit in weapons to compliment ppc's but boating is life, eh?


no mech in lore could properly fire 2 ppc's consistently and the warhawk was more of a stationary turret because of the PPC's heat in a longer fight (the hotter the mech the worse he could move because the myomer-muscles that move the mech worked worse). awesome had 3 ppc's but the pilot was always advised to only use 2, the third was a backup.

i would rather have something like mechs reacting worse the hotter it gets than changing weapons over and over again. then we also might get down from the damage powertrip we are on since forever.

[Tesunie]

Alienized, on 16 October 2018 - 08:49 AM, said:

awesome had 3 ppc's but the pilot was always advised to only use 2, the third was a backup.

In TT, each turn is a 10 second window. Heat and weapons fire is presumed to happen within a 10 second frame of time. That means, even by TT standards, even if an Awesome shoots all three PPCs in a turn, he very likely did not alpha them at the same exact moment (unlike MW:O).

That being said, that Awesome could shoot triple PPCs for a couple of turns before threatening it's heat scale. Most common way to use an Awesome in TT was to shoot three PPCs, then two, then three again and repeat. Unless one needed to shoot three PPCs a couple of turns in a row, which it could still do.

By lore, there was no reason not to shoot three PPCs, besides heat levels. But if you could maintain enough cooling it would be fine.


On the counter point, it was impossible in lore to shoot more than two Gauss simultaneously (but you could shoot more within 10 seconds, a single turn). Doing so would cause the mech to brown out it's power grid recharging it's capacitors.


Beyond those points, I'm not in disagreence with you. A change to the heat scale could be a good thing. However, as a counter argument, adjusting Gauss heat production a little (much like MLs already have) could also work and would be far easier to do.

So many possible solutions...

[Throe]

[deleted by user]

Edited by Throe, 09 November 2018 - 11:26 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Maybe some heat for the Gauss with more heat the longer you hold the charge?

[Alienized]

maybe just remove the complete weapon part of the skill tree and only be able to use 45 sp.

after that, think of skills that dont just make the game a purely weapon based arcade game.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 October 2018 - 10:40 PM, said:

But Gauss charge does nothing whatsoever to desync the weapon from PPCs, so...no. It doesn't help there at all.

It actually does, since the gauss can not be fired immediately, you'd either have to fire them separately or wait for the charge to finish.

PGI did simply not thought things through and players quickly figured out to charge preemptively in anticipation of an engagement. ALthough it does create a brief window of desync when the preeemtive chargeup is not used, a very minor window that is.

Weirdly, the chargeup syncs with lasers on slow targets but desyncs on fast moving targets. Then again, players have figured out flicking to combat the later.

[Grus]

No.. we already have the stupid vharge mechanic we dont need to gimp it any more..

[Y E O N N E]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 22 October 2018 - 02:44 AM, said:

It actually does, since the gauss can not be fired immediately, you'd either have to fire them separately or wait for the charge to finish.

That de-synchronizes the cool-down, but does nothing to de-synchronize the actual shot.

So yes, you are right, it does some desynchronization...but not to damage application. It forces the user to expose a little more to track the target while charging or rely on external inputs to provide the target location before they expose. The major net change this had was allowing ERLL some breathing room to become an effective poptart counter.

[The6thMessenger]

Could we just make Gauss rifles have GH when firing two? As in we get to keep the low-heat if it's only being fired one at a time, but we get to have good damage with it but have ball-park damage/heat with AC20 when firing two like so:

"heatpenalty": 75,
"heatPenaltyID": 1,
"minheatpenaltylevel": 1,


GR Firing 2 = (1 x 75 x 0.08) = 6 -> 2 + 6 = 8 total heat.
HGR Firing 2 = (2 x 75 x 0.08) = 12 -> 4 + 12 = 16 total heat.
LGR Firing 2 = (0.55 x 75 x 0.08) = 3 -> 1.1 + 3 = 4.3 total heat.

This way we get to keep the practically heat-less weapon, but have it still heat efficient yet not retardedly so. 3.125 damage/heat with GRs shot at 2, is kind of in the ballpark with AC20 doing 3.333 damage/heat. It's practically have our cake and eat it too, and it can be done with simple XML.

75 multplier is just a value to start with, it could be at 60. But the idea is simply penalize firing 2 gauss in terms of heat, but not too hot, while we can keep the heatless aspect when we fire only 1 per volley.

[KursedVixen]

Reno Blade, on 26 August 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

I was always thinking it need to have some base heat added and some GH for multi shots.
At least a bit to reduce the perfect synergy with energy weapons, so that other ballistics don't get totally left behind by this synergy.

e.g. Gauss heat ~2-3 (from 1) (ammo up to 15 from 10)
CGauss ~3-4 (from 1) (ammo stays at 10)
HGauss heat 5 (from 2) (ammo up to 7 from 5)

and if we would add GH for a second Gauss, it should add just enough to add another 5 heat or so.
Then we could even have Gauss+PPC back if the Gauss itself had more base heat and GH for dual-Gauss, as it would be closer to AC10s in heat generation.

But that's me and I always want some kind of anti-boating penalty.

*sings "Ride Of The Valkyries with the words "Nerf the clans" yeah surre let's give the IS more ammo and completely disregard clanners as if this game wasn't anymore biased....

[Roland09]

Isn't it a bit strange that none of the "Real Life Coil Guns Produce Heat So Gauss Should, Too" - proponents is arguing that multiple machine guns should produce lots of heat, too? I mean, not a single one?

Coincidence?

[Tesunie]

Roland09, on 22 December 2018 - 02:23 AM, said:

Isn't it a bit strange that none of the "Real Life Coil Guns Produce Heat So Gauss Should, Too" - proponents is arguing that multiple machine guns should produce lots of heat, too? I mean, not a single one?

Coincidence?

As I've mentioned to the "MGs should produce heat" crowd, you are talking about advanced sci-fi materials that is diamond infused metals that current day weapons wouldn't even scratch. Also, the amount of heat produced by MGs (even those taken in bulk) would be very minimal compared to the amount of heat our highly advanced cooling systems can bleed off in a given moment.

For the Gauss, it does produce heat, though a rather minimal amount. These highly advanced materials may be the reason a Gauss rifle produces so little heat (and to top it off, a Gauss rifle isn't a coil gun). Though, after doing research into Gauss and Coil rifles a while back, I am kinda surprised that they don't have the engine producing more heat from the energy draw needed to recharge the weapon's capacitors. Maybe it's because they trickle charge, rather than quick charge? Don't know.


On relation to different people supporting different concepts, very likely the "MG should produce heat" crowd doesn't see Gauss as an issue in the game and think MGs are OP. Most people tend to complain about those things they feel are OP, and ignore other subjects completely.

With that note mentioned, I do feel that MGs are not OP, but being able to take 12 of them on a single mech is an unbalancing factor. Especially when said mech has enough tonnage to still get other laser weapons that can still strip armor, move fast, and is really tiny. I mean, 12 MGs on a Direwolf would be considered as a waste due to it's speed and size... HOWEVER, MGs when taking in packs of 4 or less seem extremely reasonable and doesn't appear to be an issue. (My opinion on the subject of course.)

[Y E O N N E]

Roland09, on 22 December 2018 - 02:23 AM, said:

Isn't it a bit strange that none of the "Real Life Coil Guns Produce Heat So Gauss Should, Too" - proponents is arguing that multiple machine guns should produce lots of heat, too? I mean, not a single one?

Coincidence?

The energy involved is different by orders of magnitude.

[Roland09]

Oh, is it?

Show me some math, please: A gauss slug is accelerated to 2,000 m/s and weighs how much? How many machine gun bullets are accelerated to what speed in a given time and weigh how much, multiplied by the number of machine guns?

By sheer mass alone, the gauss gun can absorb how much heat, compared the mass of the machine guns?

Orders of magnitude?

[Tesunie]

Roland09, on 22 December 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

Oh, is it?

Show me some math, please: A gauss slug is accelerated to 2,000 m/s and weighs how much? How many machine gun bullets are accelerated to what speed in a given time and weigh how much, multiplied by the number of machine guns?

By sheer mass alone, the gauss gun can absorb how much heat, compared the mass of the machine guns?

Orders of magnitude?

ONE MG does not produce the same amount of heat as ONE Gauss Rifle/Coil Rifle.

Then, MGs would have their minimal heat dispersed over every MG taken, so "mass count" doesn't matter.
Then advanced materials, which doesn't deform as easily as common day steel... (if you are making that comparison.)

So, yeah. The amount of power/energy/heat created are vastly different between the two subjects. Thus, in BT and MW, MGs produce "no significant" heat.