50 replies to this topic

[Rydiak Randborir]

Sable Dove, on 28 August 2018 - 05:42 AM, said:

That's not a nerf to the ballistics. The weapons are no less effective. The nerf would only be to specific builds, and even then, it's barely a nerf for skilled players. If not being able to fire three AC10s at the same time ruins your build, then try a different build.

So again, you confirm you think 30 PPFLD is too strong.

Quote

Is that why they barely mentioned the Deathstrike at all, and specifically complained about IS Gauss being too weak for 3/4 of the opening post?

And no, I didn't say overpowered. I said it's not fun to face. Which is pretty much just as bad as being overpowered, since a game's purpose is ostensibly to be fun.

So is isGauss weak or is it overpowered? You flip-flop positions because you have no argument other than feeling.

You can also chose to ignore that the Deathstrike has been always used as the poster-child of people complaining about GaussVomit, but it doesn't help your position.

[Sable Dove]

Rydiak, on 28 August 2018 - 06:04 AM, said:

So again, you confirm you think 30 PPFLD is too strong.

For easy, single-component, instantaneous damage, yes, I think it's a bit too much given mech armour and IS values. It wasn't exactly a secret.

Rydiak, on 28 August 2018 - 06:04 AM, said:

So is isGauss weak or is it overpowered? You flip-flop positions because you have no argument other than feeling.

Weak individually, strong in pairs given an appropriate build. At least in QP and non-sync-drop FP.

Rydiak, on 28 August 2018 - 06:04 AM, said:

You can also chose to ignore that the Deathstrike has been always used as the poster-child of people complaining about GaussVomit, but it doesn't help your position.

To be honest, I virtually never see a Deathstrike. With any build. It's just not a common mech. I've seen people complain about it before, but the OP barely mentioned it, and seemed to focus on IS gauss, so I focused on that, since it was the topic.

[Rydiak Randborir]

Sable Dove, on 28 August 2018 - 06:13 AM, said:

To be honest, I virtually never see a Deathstrike. With any build. It's just not a common mech. I've seen people complain about it before, but the OP barely mentioned it, and seemed to focus on IS gauss, so I focused on that, since it was the topic.

Uh, well, the topic was actually a complaint about people who want to nerf Gauss. Seeing as you think 30 PPLFD is too strong, I'd say the original complaint was spot on.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Again I just gonna say than laservom HBK-IIC-A is miles stronger than 2xGauss HBK-IIC with has exactly said 30 pinpoint. Gauss rifles are very ****** on thier own without lasers to convert free heat into damage.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 28 August 2018 - 06:26 AM.

[Sable Dove]

Rydiak, on 28 August 2018 - 06:21 AM, said:

Uh, well, the topic was actually a complaint about people who want to nerf Gauss. Seeing as you think 30 PPLFD is too strong, I'd say the original complaint was spot on.

But I don't want to nerf gauss. If you'll note, I've said multiple times that they should buff gauss rifles, and to be clear, I mean light gauss and gauss, and maybe heavy gauss. If they buffed single gauss into usability, it would be overpowered in pairs, so they don't buff it.

If you absolutely must have them firing in synced pairs, gauss will likely never get buffed.

Edited by Sable Dove, 28 August 2018 - 06:32 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Where are all the people saying that Gauss needs nerfed? I have seen discussion on changes to Gauss but it is always because of how they pair up with other weapons. Suggestions have been made to add some heat to them or to look at some more Ghost Heat pairing like what was done with PPC/Gauss.

Neither of those suggested changes is going to have an affect on that 2Gauss HBKII that is being used as an example.
Where it will have an affect is when it is paired with combinations of lots of lasers like HLL or erML.

Gauss by themselves are not OP. It is their attribute of almost no heat that makes some combination builds commonly referred to as Gauss vomit OP.

[Cypherdrene]

Sable Dove, on 28 August 2018 - 06:31 AM, said:

But I don't want to nerf gauss. If you'll note, I've said multiple times that they should buff gauss rifles, and to be clear, I mean light gauss and gauss, and maybe heavy gauss. If they buffed single gauss into usability, it would be overpowered in pairs, so they don't buff it.

If you absolutely must have them firing in synced pairs, gauss will likely never get buffed.

I see what you're trying to say, but that just adds more gimicks, and adding more just cause you can doesn't make it right. Gauss isn't the problem, what is usually brought together with Guass is the issue.

The nerf is directly related to Gauss+lasers (usually more than two ERML) and nothing more, which can be helped with either lower Heat Cap or Gauss generating heat to bring those builds more in line with the proposed 60-ish max alpha.

[Daurock]

Rampage, on 28 August 2018 - 06:54 AM, said:

Gauss by themselves are not OP. It is their attribute of almost no heat that makes some combination builds commonly referred to as Gauss vomit OP.

This is likely true, but the fact that people can and do combine them into gauss vomits is kind of the point where many of the gauss nerf complaints come from. That's its niche, and it's a very potent one.

The trouble with Gauss is not that it can combine with other weapons, or that it's OP on its own, but that a couple of gauss types (Specifically, the clan gauss, and possibly the hGauss) scale your alpha just a little too high, even considering the tonnage invested. This is a trait it shares with the clan Lasers, and why you can often easily swap a HLL or two out of your mech, and slip in a gauss and see little loss in alpha, nor loss in damage potential. What people often forget is that even on live, mechs like the Ebon Jag, or even the Huntsman are arguably better running GaussVomit over PureVomit, and those builds barely even got scratched on the PTS. (That Huntsman build actually got cooler-feeling, imo) This is why I would prefer to see a simple damage reduction in the clan version, so that it doesn't scale the alphas quite so high.

I will mention though as an aside, that all of the stuff about single charge mechanics, etc, are going to be pointless, because you can make a workable deathstrike build using a single gauss, and still hit obnoxiously high levels of alpha. (79 is still a little ridiculous, seeing as IS has a tough time cracking 60 unless using Hgauss, and all its associated baggage.)

Edited by Daurock, 28 August 2018 - 08:38 AM.

[MechaBattler]

If they're given a reasonable amount of heat. It'll bring them more in line with other weapon combinations. Instead of being the go to. It's a simple change that doesn't require yet another mechanic be tacked on to Gauss weapons.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

denAirwalkerrr, on 28 August 2018 - 01:10 AM, said:

Seriously wtf? Just because weapon isn’t producing heat it now requires nerfs within new system?

The reason for adding heat to Gauss is so we don't have a bajillion special band-aids just for Gauss. Gauss charge up limit, gauss fragility and explosiveness, consistent nerfing of everything that pairs well with it (not because either is too good on its own, but because both are better when paired together). Keeping in mind that Gauss has been involved consistently with the meta and a strong factor in it. Any time the heat system is messed with, Gauss is always a way around heat restrictions, why? Cuz it doesn't work within that same system.

Making Gauss limited by things outside of the single system that is designed to control damage output in the first place seems silly doesn't it? What does it add by essentially having its own resource pool? Thus why many have suggested that be changed, that way some of the stupid bandaids can be ripped off (fragility, explosiveness, charge-up limit).

[Khobai]

The whole purpose of lowering the heat cap to 40-50 is to prevent huge alphas.

Gauss allows you circumvent the lower heat cap and still perform huge alphas.

Obviously that means Gauss needs to be nerfed.

Making Gauss generate 7-8 heat is one possible way of nerfing it. And yeah it should generate more heat than an AC20 given its significantly longer range and velocity. Chargeup should also be removed from gauss, if you make it generate significant heat, it doesnt need the chargeup disadvantage anymore.

Heavy Gauss should also generate more heat and probably have ghost heat like the AC20 does. Although both Heavy Gauss and AC20 should get significant buffs so theyre better a singleton weapons. The goal being to discourage huge alphastrikes by firing more than one of those weapons simultaneously while at the same time making them better as one-of weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 01 September 2018 - 01:30 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 01 September 2018 - 01:23 AM, said:

Chargeup should also be removed from gauss, if you make it generate significant heat, it doesnt need the chargeup disadvantage anymore.

Sorry but no, it makes it interesting and different from using all the other guns, charge up is the one thing that should stay.

[Navid A1]

I'm tired of talking sense into brick walls.

People who think Gauss needs nerfs are the problem and I'd be happy to see them leave the game and never return.


Instead of thinking about how to screw the game more, think about where you F*ed up when that 15 damage scary, super OP god-level weapon one-shotted you through your fresh CT from 2500m away.


One day they complain that Piranha needs nerf because it does 10+ dps and moves too fast to be hit...
The other day they complain that Gauss is broken because it can cripple lights in one shot and is a no skill weapon.


ffs.

Edited by Navid A1, 01 September 2018 - 11:47 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Navid A1, on 01 September 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

Instead of thinking about how to screw the game more, think about where you F*ed up when that 15 damage scary, super OP god-level weapon one-shotted you through your fresh CT from 2500m away.

If you think any of the more rational posters here is saying that Gauss is this boogeyman OP weapon then you are the same sort of brickwall that thinks the 94 point alpha MKII is a problematic part of the meta.

The point to "nerf" gauss it to nerf it on the high end assaults which it has been a key to outside of the Mauler days and before the MKII dropped (so WC17 era meta). The Whale, the KDK-3, the Night Gyr, and the MKII have all used it to be effective at long and mid range because it is able to keep up DPS where pure laser vomit or pure PPCs can't. Not to mention the issue with having a weapon that escapes the resource meant to control damage output that has created more of a balance mess than was worth it.

The question ultimately ask yourself is really this: What does this game honestly gain from having a weapon circumvent heat? Does it actually add anything to gameplay?

To me the answer is that we don't gain anything. We've had several weird nerfs all dancing around the problem that only impact what mechs can use the Gauss, "recoil" on heavy Gauss, or certain just separate rules (like charge up limits which must be factored in WITH ghost heat limits). I'd rather see that undone, especially if we are lowering the heat cap which makes Gauss even more essential for effective assaults (to add DPS and alpha power).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 September 2018 - 05:05 PM.

[Navid A1]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 September 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

If you think any of the more rational posters here is saying that Gauss is this boogeyman OP weapon then you are the same sort of brickwall that thinks the 94 point alpha MKII is a problematic part of the meta.

The point to "nerf" gauss it to nerf it on the high end assaults which it has been a key to outside of the Mauler days and before the MKII dropped (so WC17 era meta). The Whale, the KDK-3, the Night Gyr, and the MKII have all used it to be effective at long and mid range because it is able to keep up DPS where pure laser vomit or pure PPCs can't. Not to mention the issue with having a weapon that escapes the resource meant to control damage output that has created more of a balance mess than was worth it.

The question ultimately ask yourself is really this: What does this game honestly gain from having a weapon circumvent heat? Does it actually add anything to gameplay?

To me the answer is that we don't gain anything. We've had several weird nerfs all dancing around the problem that only impact what mechs can use the Gauss, "recoil" on heavy Gauss, or certain just separate rules (like charge up limits which must be factored in WITH ghost heat limits). I'd rather see that undone, especially if we are lowering the heat cap which makes Gauss even more essential for effective assaults (to add DPS and alpha power).

How much heat do you want to add to gauss to make it "balanced"

Gauss is a good weapon. Most meta builds (with enough tonnage) depend on it for added alpha and DPS.
But the same goes for every other widely used weapon. C-ERML, good alpha for low tonnage. C-HLLf for good alpha power.


The thing you have to think about is that, are those weapon overperforming?... or is it because any other weapon in the game has been nerf'd to sh*t since one meme mech could use them effectively?

AC20? hot as F*, slow AF projectile, Ghost heat
UAC20? hot as F*, slow AF projectile, Ghost heat, over the top number of shells
SRMs? Spread as wide as a planet
SPLs? lol!
PPCs? too hot, needs quirked mechs

You also have to think about how maps are designed in this game. Maps dictate a big part of the meta.

Edited by Navid A1, 01 September 2018 - 07:43 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Navid A1, on 01 September 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

Gauss is a good weapon. Most meta builds (with enough tonnage) depend on it for added alpha and DPS.

Depend, or abuse?

For example right before the cSPL was nerfed into the ground, the only think stopping things from being full brawl meta was the Night Gyr and the sole reason was because it could both do long range and do excellent damage once the brawl started. That isn't necessarily good given how dominant the Night Gyr was at the time. The main reason it was so dominant? The tonnage to actually use double Gauss (and XL) and the hardpoints to make the most of it, unlike any other Clan heavy.

Navid A1, on 01 September 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

But the same goes for every other widely used weapon. C-ERML, good alpha for low tonnage. C-HLLf for good alpha power.

Yeah, except those all have drawbacks. Gauss' only real problem is the high tonnage tax required to make good use of it, which heavier mechs can afford. That's one of the major differences between a dual Gauss Hunchie and the dual Gauss Night Gyr, one can mount the extra stuff to make effective use of the dual Gauss.

Navid A1, on 01 September 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

The thing you have to think about is that, are those weapon overperforming?... or is it because any other weapon in the game has been nerf'd to sh*t since one meme mech could use them effectively?

Not really the point I'm making is it? Are they overperforming by themselves? Not really. Have they been a pretty strong component of metas since the beginning of this game because of that consistent DPS? Sure have, and there have been numerous additions that skirted around the actual issue because for some reason PGI and players in general CLING to this idea that Gauss HAS to have 0 heat implications.

Navid A1, on 01 September 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

AC20? hot as F*, slow AF projectile, Ghost heat
UAC20? hot as F*, slow AF projectile, Ghost heat, over the top number of shells
SRMs? Spread as wide as a planet
SPLs? lol!
PPCs? too hot, needs quirked mechs

Let's be clear, there are a lot of issues, that doesn't mean a problem shouldn't be fixed. You are basically giving the same excuse people gave to keep the Kodiak 3 as it was during its reign. Just because PGI borks implementations doesn't mean something isn't mechanically broken or that it shouldn't be fixed.

Navid A1, on 01 September 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

How much heat do you want to add to gauss to make it "balanced"

Ideal heat
IS Gauss = 5
Clan Gauss = 6-7.5
Heavy Gauss = 7.5-10
Light Gauss = 2.5

With this, charge limits would be removed and ghost heat used to more control them, recoil on heavy gauss removed, and their fragility and explosiveness removed/undone.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 September 2018 - 09:19 PM.

[Navid A1]

Can a dual gauss Night Gyr brawl right now?
How many OP gauss mechs are currently popular besides the MCII?

The most dangerous Gyr was a dual gauss+dual PPC mech that could jump and was nimble. Many things have changed. PPCs and Gauss now have ghost heat, Gauss cooldown has been increased.

Destroying weapon systems only because they work has never been a good approach. SPLs are a prime example of that. When certain Mechs appear to be overperforming, You can handle them individually/.

The amount of heat you are suggesting for gauss are out of this world. Besides, if you remove all of the things you mentioned there, then what will be the purpose of an AC20?

Edited by Navid A1, 02 September 2018 - 02:45 AM.

[Khobai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 September 2018 - 07:41 AM, said:

Sorry but no, it makes it interesting and different from using all the other guns, charge up is the one thing that should stay.

I disagree that chargeup makes gauss interesting.

chargeup might be interesting if you could fire the weapon with variable levels of charge.

but the way chargeup is currently implemented exists solely as a frustration mechanic. there is nothing interesting about that. it exists solely to make it more difficult to use gauss and serves as a barrier to new players against using the weapon; that is a bad game mechanic.


I would also argue that the way chargeup is currently implemented, making the weapon unable to snapfire, direct contradicts the intended role of the weapon which is long-range sniping.

If chargeup remains, IMO it would make more sense if Gauss could fire immediately for half damage or charge-up for full damage. That would make more intuitive use of the chargeup mechanic.

But I would be okay with completely removing chargeup too.

Edited by Khobai, 02 September 2018 - 02:28 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 02 September 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

but the way chargeup is currently implemented exists solely as a frustration mechanic. there is nothing interesting about that. it exists solely to make it more difficult to use gauss and serves as a barrier to new players against using the weapon; that is a bad game mechanic

Why is it a frustration mechanic? Is it really that hard to hold the trigger for a certain amount of time, then release it? You couldn't just pre-charge it to snap-fire? New players having to learn? Why on earth is that bad?

Bad mechanic is what we call the mechanics of current MWO LRMs. Gauss charge compensates for the fact that Gauss puts front-loaded damage, over great distances while having incredibly fast projectile speed. You want no charge time? Sure lets reduce projectile speed to 1350-ish, or make it burst fire of 3x5 or 5x3 -- I don't think anyone would like any of that. Gauss charge should be here to stay, to cover for the circumstances of Gauss.

Khobai, on 02 September 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

I would also argue that the way chargeup is currently implemented, making the weapon unable to snapfire, direct contradicts the intended role of the weapon which is long-range

I'm pretty sure that long range sniping is about putting damage over a long distance, not instantly. At long ranges, you actually have a bit more lee way in staring. Hell, you'd still be taking a moment to calculate the deflection for moving targets.

Similarly, you could just precharge the gauss rifle, to snap fire.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 02 September 2018 - 04:20 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Navid A1, on 01 September 2018 - 11:37 PM, said:

Can a dual gauss Night Gyr brawl right now?
How many OP gauss mechs are currently popular besides the MCII?

How many mechs can effectively carry a loadout similar to the MCII? Really only the Whale and the laser vomit build is still one of the top builds.

Navid A1, on 01 September 2018 - 11:37 PM, said:

The most dangerous Gyr was a dual gauss+dual PPC mech that could jump and was nimble. Many things have changed. PPCs and Gauss now have ghost heat, Gauss cooldown has been increased.

And yet it was still the top heavy after the ghost heat was linked because it could still mount dual Gauss and lasers to be both strong at long and mid range.

Navid A1, on 01 September 2018 - 11:37 PM, said:

Destroying weapon systems only because they work has never been a good approach.

How is adding heat "destroying" a weapon system, if anything it should allow undoing years of nerfs. It does ruin the synergy it has with energy weapons a bit but that's kinda the point.

Navid A1, on 01 September 2018 - 11:37 PM, said:

The amount of heat you are suggesting for gauss are out of this world. Besides, if you remove all of the things you mentioned there, then what will be the purpose of an AC20?

First, it is equivalent to an ERML for both normal Gauss so out-of-this-world it is not. Second, the purpose of the AC20 is different from the Gauss. One can snapshot volleyballs at short range while the other has a chargeup delay and can be used at much longer ranges, and that includes the heavy gauss. They don't infringe on each others roles and never really have.

Khobai, on 02 September 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

I disagree that chargeup makes gauss interesting.

You can say that all you want, but it forces you to use it differently which is good. That's the whole point of having different firing behaviors. Yes, it can be frustrating to have a moment where you need snapfire, but again, that's the point. Every weapon should have those sort of moment; no weapon should feel perfect in every situation and it isn't like this would be the only game to do that (TF2 was the first I noticed to kinda have that effect when I played it, but I'm sure it isn't the first).

Khobai, on 02 September 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

I would also argue that the way chargeup is currently implemented, making the weapon unable to snapfire, direct contradicts the intended role of the weapon which is long-range sniping.

First, stop trying to bring intended role into this because there are a lot of weapons whose intended roles are dumb and infringe on other weapon roles. Second, just because you can't snapfire doesn't mean this isn't a long range "sniper" weapon. I mean it hasn't stopped top tier players from using it so I think this sounds more like a personal problem than anything.