50 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2018 - 08:08 AM, said:

You can say that all you want, but it forces you to use it differently which is good. That's the whole point of having different firing behaviors.

When you have different firing behaviors they should be both different AND interesting. While chargeup is different it fails to be interesting.

Simply being a skill barrier does not make it interesting. New players arnt like "wow thats neat". Instead theyre just like "screw this im just going to use lasers instead".

Chargeup is different but fails at being interesting. That makes it bad.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2018 - 08:08 AM, said:

First, stop trying to bring intended role into this because there are a lot of weapons whose intended roles are dumb and infringe on other weapon roles. Second, just because you can't snapfire doesn't mean this isn't a long range "sniper" weapon. I mean it hasn't stopped top tier players from using it so I think this sounds more like a personal problem than anything.

Its not a personal problem. Because I personally have no problem using Gauss. But I do find chargeup boring.

But I have seen new players get exceedingly frustrated with the chargeup mechanic. Its a bad mechanic.

It exists only to serve as a skill barrier to using the weapon. It has no other purpose for existing.


Again my version of chargeup is superior. Fire immediately for half damage -OR- chargeup for full damage. Its interesting because it presents the player with a choice: fire NOW for half damage, or chargeup for full damage. It also eliminates the front end skill barrier of the weapon and only puts a skill barrier on the back end if you want to charge it up for full damage. That is vastly better.

The6thMessenger, on 02 September 2018 - 04:18 AM, said:

Why is it a frustration mechanic? Is it really that hard to hold the trigger for a certain amount of time, then release it? You couldn't just pre-charge it to snap-fire? New players having to learn? Why on earth is that bad?

Because its one of two situations:

#1 If its easy to pre-charge Gauss to snapfire, then that completely defeats the purpose of chargeup as a means of preventing snap firing. Thus rendering the mechanic entirely pointless.

#2 if its not easy to pre-charge it, then it is a frustration mechanic, because the fact its not easy makes it a skill barrier for new players.

Either way the mechanic is bad in its current form. Although I would surmise its more #2 than #1. I see people get frustrated way more with gauss than anything. And I constantly see complaints about chargeup on the forums.

The6thMessenger, on 02 September 2018 - 04:18 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure that long range sniping is about putting damage over a long distance, not instantly.

Its undeniably easier to hit a target at long range if you can snapfire.

Youre only supporting my argument that chargeup is a frustration mechanic that requires players to overcome a skill barrier for entry. And again thats a terrible game mechanic.

"we dont like people using this weapon were going to make it more frustrating to use so less people use it" WTF kindve way is that to balance a game? Only PGI would come up with something like that. You dont see that garbage in other games, because it detracts from newer players having fun. When other games use the chargeup mechanic its pretty much always used for the intuitive purpose of having variable levels of charge on a weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 02 September 2018 - 10:44 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 02 September 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Simply being a skill barrier does not make it interesting. New players arnt like "wow thats neat". Instead theyre just like "screw this im just going to use lasers instead".

That's how a lot of things work. Not everything needs to be easy. You're basically saying assaults should be made better because players have a hard time with them. That's not really a problem and I don't think chargeup is this incredibly difficult thing. There's nothing wrong with things that have higher skill floors.......

Khobai, on 02 September 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Its not a personal problem. Because I personally have no problem using Gauss. But I do find chargeup boring.

But I have seen new players get exceedingly frustrated with the chargeup mechanic. Its a bad mechanic.

It exists only to serve as a skill barrier to using the weapon. It has no other purpose for existing.

It exists to prevent exactly what you want, snapfiring. I have trouble believing that the mechanic is also that problematic given it is almost the exact same as the Spartan Laser from Halo. The inability is what makes it interesting though because you have to play it a bit different than your typical direct fire weapon.

Khobai, on 02 September 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Again my version of chargeup is superior. Fire immediately for half damage -OR- chargeup for full damage. Its interesting because it presents the player with a choice: fire NOW for half damage, or chargeup for full damage.

It provides players with a way to circumvent a weakness of a weapon that would otherwise be achieved with different weapons. It comes down to weapons being too flexible, which is exactly one of the problems that chargeup was meant to fix. That's why the "choice" you are giving players isn't really a choice. It is situational flexibility that you are actually offering, not depth.

[Khobai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

That's how a lot of things work. Not everything needs to be easy. You're basically saying assaults should be made better because players have a hard time with them. That's not really a problem and I don't think chargeup is this incredibly difficult thing. There's nothing wrong with things that have higher skill floors.......

im not saying get rid of chargeup entirely (although Id be okay with that too). just changing it so its more interesting and intuitive by having variable levels of charge.

also I support increasing heat on gauss so its not like i want to make it easier on assaults to use gauss.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

It exists to prevent exactly what you want, snapfiring. I have trouble believing that the mechanic is also that problematic given it is almost the exact same as the Spartan Laser from Halo. The inability is what makes it interesting though because you have to play it a bit different than your typical direct fire weapon]quote]
on.

theres nothing wrong with snapfiring. other weapons can snapfire. theyre fine.

and certainly gauss snapfiring for half damage is fine. its only when it snapfires for full damage that its even remotely a problem.

youre exaggerating.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

It provides players with a way to circumvent a weakness of a weapon that would otherwise be achieved with different weapons. It comes down to weapons being too flexible, which is exactly one of the problems that chargeup was meant to fix. That's why the "choice" you are giving players isn't really a choice. It is situational flexibility that you are actually offering, not depth.

there is nothing wrong with weapons being flexible either. as long as they generate heat proportionate to their power level.

the main problem with gauss is that it doesnt generate any heat. Thats what really needs to be fixed.

Edited by Khobai, 02 September 2018 - 02:47 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 02 September 2018 - 11:57 AM, said:

im not saying get rid of chargeup entirely (although Id be okay with that too). just changing it so its more interesting and intuitive by having variable levels of charge.

Yeah, sorry, I don't get the more intuitive argument. It's just like the spinup time for RACs or gatling guns in other games except this is for a semi-automatic instead of an automatic weapon. Not all games allow you to fire before fully charged, though the ones that don't typically fire automatically once charged up which is something I would more prefer but I don't know that it's necessary.

[Khobai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

Yeah, sorry, I don't get the more intuitive argument. It's just like the spinup time for RACs or gatling guns in other games

and thats a bad mechanic too

comparing one bad mechanic to a similarly bad mechanic doesnt make it not a bad mechanic. theyre both bad.

remind me, whats the biggest complaints against RACs again? oh right spin up time. lmao.

people hate spinup on RACs. a lot of players want RACs converted over to a magazine based mechanic without any spinup time instead. it also gets rid of random jamming which people hate too.

random jamming is another bad mechanic that needs to go. they are all indefensible bad mechanics.

Edited by Khobai, 02 September 2018 - 03:09 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 02 September 2018 - 03:05 PM, said:

remind me, whats the biggest complaints against RACs again? oh right spin up time. lmao.

That's because of two reasons:
* The spinup time is too long.
* The spinup time counts against the jam meter.

I'll agree the random jam mechanic is bad in the fact it swings way too wildly. I don't mind the jam mechanic like it was in MW4 (causing a jam also hurt your DPS, so controlling your fire was essential unlike currently). Don't get me wrong I was against a spinup on RACs, but I think the numbers are more than the problem than anything. I also think the magazine approach is bad as well. Why do something different when MW4 already had a solid approach.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 September 2018 - 07:21 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Sad thing is, of the Gauss Rifles, Clans are more likely to include GR in their setup on heavy/assault mechs where as one will be lucky to find a GR or LGR on anything, while HGR are on primarily used on 2 mechs.

Why is that? Clans get the use of cXL (which can survive loss of a side torso) for greatest weight savings, as well as lighter weapons while the use of equipment that uses fewer crit slots, from weapons to DHS to End/Ferro.

Essentially for the weight/crit, as well as the other factor, it is not really worth IS mechs to equip standard GR.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tarl Cabot, on 02 September 2018 - 09:22 PM, said:

Essentially for the weight/crit, as well as the other factor, it is not really worth IS mechs to equip standard GR.

Well, the other factor is the engine you want to use it with is really bad to equip it on. iXL engines and iGRs don't mix if you have to mount it in the torso, and even in the arm you generally don't have the punch or DPS that a Clan mech enjoys. So there is more to the story as to why the iGR needs help.

[Khobai]

Tarl Cabot, on 02 September 2018 - 09:22 PM, said:

Essentially for the weight/crit, as well as the other factor, it is not really worth IS mechs to equip standard GR.

well im a staunch supporter of making ISXL survive side torso blowout

especially if PGI ever wants IS omnimechs to be even remotely viable

and it would certainly help IS use standard gauss