137 replies to this topic

[akolade]

Take some time to practice leading a moving target with dumbfired LRMs... they're as effective as clan ballistics, which isn't great, I guess... lol. And even in T1, many pokes and trades are against other mechs poking or trading, mostly standing still or walking backwards back into cover. IS LRMs do particularly well as you can fire and instantly return to cover without waiting for the volley duration. Dumbfired ATMs work well, especially against heavies and assaults. Obviously, hitting a conscious target without a lock is challenging at medium to long ranges, but that was not my suggestion. The recent velocity buff has made this easier than ever.

Edited by akolade, 01 September 2018 - 04:18 PM.

[Chados]

Yeah...we have a system that does that kind of shooting better than LRMs.

They’re called “MRMs.”

For some reason, a lot of people seem to want to turn LRMs into a sort of Streak MRM.

[General Solo]

Anti10188, on 01 September 2018 - 01:24 PM, said:

With all this lrm nerfing...i got one question why on some maps (two game mods)
i fell usless with lrms even if i use activeprobe. it is conter to ECM right?
so i whant to ask to make active probe carring mehs be not affected by jammer tower of incurtion, and flags jamming on eskort
....or jast delite lrms from game, it will save alooooot of work and money.
Also lets compare a D volue of Lrms, watch me statisctick about hunchback-IIB hilander-IIB Supernova-a
I can tell you all about lrms, all what you need to know and more.
and PGi boy`s if you have lrm statistick you working with, try taking me out of it and see what happend.
i have so match to say...but...even atlas have legproblem for about a yer now...he crying...and you now fixing his leg...butnerfing lrms...ohh...that brutal world.....he can not bring you money...so he be broken fo another two yers ...(till the very end)

Yeah escort and incursion can be tough on lermers.

For escort I avoid the flags or I cap them

Or incursion that Jammer totally screws lerms, just got it wait it out.

[Chados]

Yup. Active probes and ECM set to “counter” do not counter jamming towers in Escort and Incursion. This annoys me. Or it used to, when I still was running LRMs and SSRMs. It’s less of a hassle when you’re primarily packing PPCs, ballistics, and/or lasers-now that guided missiles are essentially trash-tier and irrelevant this doesn’t get on my nerves nearly as much.

[Hiten Bongz]

akolade, on 01 September 2018 - 03:11 PM, said:

Dumbfired ATMs work well

No. No they do not. Not against anything other than a no-brain assault or something moving more than 50kph+. Wasting a 5 second cooldown and precious ammo to dumbfire a 220m/s, stream-fired salvo while praying that "hopefully, just maybe, a few missiles will hit if they don't all get chewed up by a single AMS" is not an appealing or effective tactic.

[Reno Blade]

Chris Lowrey, on 30 August 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

So there are a few reasons for this, chief among them is that radar dep requires 40% more skill points then Target Decay, as well as you can choose to naturally pick up two nodes in Target decal along the natural path to get radar dep for yourself. The other big concern is keeping the Sensor tree as a potent option for skill point investment, so with 14 nodes being the "cost" to max out that ability, if we where to reduce it's value or re-purpose it to something similar to what it was before the skill tree what does that do to the overall viability of the tree itself? As we do not want to see the sensor tree become effectively ignored. If you invest a heavy amount of points into it, you should be properly rewarded for the investment.

But overall, this is something I'm open to looking into. I've thrown this out before, but when it comes to radar dep being at 100%, it puts me up against a bit of a design wall. Because I would love to be able to consider small amounts of radar dep as a potential 'Mech flavor quirk much like we have a handful of 'Mechs with target decay quirks. But because we already allow you to tech to 100% in the tree, we can't really use that as an option currently, since we don't want quirks + skill points to take you past a point where they stop doing anything for your build. (like a radar dep of over 100%.) The biggest concern on my side is any re-evaluation of the skill tree benefits cannot come at the expense of the viability of the tree as a whole. So any alterations would have to maintain that the points put into the tree are worth the investment.

I'm interesting in hearing more opinions on this, as its defiantly something that we can consider for future passes. But the key to any alteration in this sector would be making sure that any alteration doesn't see the tree itself fall into obscurity.

First of all, thank you for the detailed explanations!

I think that the main focus for the whole sensor system (and LRM locking speed/range) should be put on to the old InfoWarfare PTS3 we had some year ago.
The only problem back then was the additional laser-dmg-reduction-without-lock where the community pulled the pitchforks.

The main idea of the InfoWar PTS was great.
Different Mech classes with different sensor characteristics.
Multiple range and speed differences to give different mechs/classes different feels

And the whole thing would mix perfectly with flavour quirks and the skill tree!

I think there should never be anything with 100% (like radar dep), but you should be able to skill something A LOT HIGHER in the skill trees if you are willing to invest.
Heck, i would invest 70 points into sensors if they would provide something more.

With the InfoWar effects, you could add a ton of new skill points to the skill tree!
Some examples:

• sensor range increase (how far away you can target mechs) - buffing the lower basic stats from InfoWar per mech/class
  
• mech sensor-profile reduction (own mech targetable) (from the InfoWar PTS, how far away your mech can be targeted)
  
• radar deprivation (max 75% without quirks)
  
• lock on speed and target info speed (also from InfoWar PTS, how fast you can lock/target/scan a target)
  
• ECM targeting-slow effect (also from InfoWar PTS, ECM provides soft-counter only to increase time to target the mechs under ECM, not prevent it)
  
• Artemis, TAG, Narc, UAV bonus (duration/range/speeds...)

[Anti10188]

Yep, Lrms feels usless. good job on nerfing. now lets make a test, i am stop plaing lrms or mwo. lets see how many lrms users wille in matches after few monthes.

GG WP

[Tarl Cabot]

Issue with LRMS, at least IS side, is everything is heavier and takes up more crit slots then Clan versions. Never mind Clans benefit more from all their weight saving components, from 7slot Endo/Ferro to cXL that survives the loss of one side torso. Remember that other clan components are take up less slots and/or weight less.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 03 September 2018 - 02:19 PM.

[akolade]

Whether or not your ATMs get AMS'd is not a reason against dumbfired missiles, since they would be destroyed regardless of lock and have less chance since you're close already. At 125m to 275m, ATM 3 damage range, ATMs(and now LRMS too with more velocity), reach the target in a very short time, and a 4ATM12 Night Gyr or 2ATM12 Huntsman, or 3ATM9 Hunchback IIC B can easily pop a ridge and unload at least ATM24(ATM27) into a target, moving or not. They are no harder to aim than SRMs and clan do not have access to MRMs, and so must dumbfire to achieve that effect. The major difference is that you must aim at the ground below the mech or where they will be, by leading the missiles. Ofc it's difficult on quick or small enemies, but that is true for almost any weapon but lasers and circumvents ECM coverage. Some damage is better than none when countered. I would liken it to LBX or SRM jumpsniping or "brawltarting", except ATM24(27) is 72(81) damage at that range.

Edited by akolade, 03 September 2018 - 02:49 PM.

[Hiten Bongz]

akolade, on 03 September 2018 - 02:33 PM, said:

[ATMs] are no harder to aim than SRMs

They have half the velocity and a 130m dead zone, I'm not sure how you can expect to be taken seriously with this.

[akolade]

Let me clarify... hitting something from 125m to 280m with SRMs and dumbfired ATMs are about the same difficulty, with some extra leading. ATMs and MRMs are even closer due to duration. IS LRMs and SRMs are quite similar as well. Maybe the moderate performance of dumbfired missiles could be improved? Less focus on autoaim computer guidance and more on pushing and firing without locks? Ability to attack from range with extended locks, but still close range snap shot ability when needed? Perhaps increase close range velocity and reduce it over distance to penalize edge of map LRMers. AMS and deadzone are still counters.

Edited by akolade, 03 September 2018 - 05:16 PM.

[Orion ji]

Hey thanks for this nice writeup Chris but I do think there is a problem with ATMS.

When I dumbfire them, often they go off into space and rarely if ever go to where my crosshair was. I did many 18hr game sessions since the patch and it might have happened 20-25% of the time.

Also that new locktime now was a b****h getting used to, but it was a nice changeup in my playstyle. I still don't like it too much though .
Keep up the good work.

[Tier5ForLife]

Thorqemada, on 31 August 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

CN9 - salvos to kill with LRM20 having LOS
Distance = Artemis - Standard
780m = 15 - 24
600m = 15 - 18
300m = 14 - 15
190m = 08 - 12



JR7 - salvos to kill with LRM15 having LOS
Distance = Artemis - Standard
780m = 20 - 22
720m = 19 - 20
190m = 31 - 30

I'm a bit confused. Distance EQUALS Artemis MINUS Standard? Am I reading that the wrong way?

[akolade]

When your dumbfired missiles fly off into the air, they are being guided to your crosshair on the distant terrain. Make sure you aim for the ground where or slightly behind where the mech is standing so the missiles curve into the target while trying to arc, like you're aiming for their toes with ballistics. Different mechs with higher or lower mounts require you to adjust the point a bit.

Edited by akolade, 03 September 2018 - 05:27 PM.

[Tier5ForLife]

OZHomerOZ, on 31 August 2018 - 08:13 PM, said:

Edit: took out my Narc Summoner to test,

Wait, a Narc Summoner? I've tried to Narc and LRM but it has never really worked or probably, I just suck at playing this game.

Can you post that build?

akolade, on 03 September 2018 - 05:25 PM, said:

When your dumbfired missiles fly off into the air, they are being guided to your crosshair on the distant terrain. Make sure you aim for the ground where or slightly behind where the mech is standing so the missiles curve into the target while trying to arc, like you're aiming for their toes with ballistics.

The problem IMO is that a lot of mechs move.

[akolade]

When firing upon laterally moving mechs, lead just like you would with ballistics or MRMs, except aim for the ground near where their feet will be. The missiles will curve into the side of the mech while trying to arc to the ground. Aiming along the horizontal axis of the mech will place the crosshair in the far distance, guiding the missiles there instead of near your target, much like the poor convergence of ballistics.

Edited by akolade, 03 September 2018 - 06:33 PM.

[Tamerlin]

My understand of current rules
• Standard SRM: normal spread
• Standard LRM: normal lock time, normal spread, normal tracking
• ATM: 25% tighter spread is built into the weapon system, if the firing mech has line of sight (LOS) and weapon lock at the time of firing. Therefore the Artemis upgrade does nothing for ATMs. Dumb fired ATMs do not have this tighter spread.
• TAG/NARC: 50% faster LRM/SSRM/ATM missile lock time, 25% longer for target lock decay, 50% bonus to LRM/SSRM/ATM tracking strength. Counters ECM if directed on an ECM mech. (Note: I've found no documentation of spread reduction from TAG/NARC, nor if TAG must be applied for entire missile flight time)
• SRM + Artemis: 25% tighter spread, +1 ton per launcher, +1 slot per launcher
• LRM + Artemis: 25% tighter spread, if launched with missile lock and LOS at time of firing, +1 ton per launcher, +1 slot per launcher
• Artemis does nothing for SSRMs
• Artemis stacks with TAG, but not with NARC

My proposal for Artemis

SRM + Artemis:

• 25% tighter spread
  
• 10% increased range
  
• see below for ton/slot cost

LRM + Artemis:

• 50% increase of target lock circle size
  
• 25% faster lock-on time if LRM mech has LOS of target and target is within sensor range of the LRM mech
  
• 25% tighter spread if launched with missile lock and LOS and target is within sensor range fo the LRM mech at time of firing
  
• 25% longer for target lock decay
  
• 25% bonus to LRM tracking strength
  
• see below for ton/slot cost

SSRM + Artemis:

• 50% increase of target lock circle size
  
• 25% faster lock-on time if SSRM mech has LOS of target and is within sensor range of the SSRM mech
  
• 25% longer for target lock decay
  
• 25% bonus to SSRM tracking strength
  
• see below for ton/slot cost

Artemis does nothing for ATMs.


TAG and NARC each provide the same 25% bonus to lock-on time, target decay and tracking strength as Artemis. However, only two stack. A TAGed and NARCed target when fired upon by an Artemis-equipped mech maxes out at 50% bonus. Thus a non-Artemis-equipped mech firing LRMs or SSRM at a TAGed and NARCed target gains a 50% bonus to lock-on time, target decay and tracking strength, but does not gain the 50% increase in target circle size.

Tonnage and Slots
The nominal Artemis cost of one slot and one ton per missile weapon makes no sense - 4xLRM/5+Artemis adds four tons, but a single LRM/20+Artemis only adds one ton. Instead make it a 20% tonnage increase, rounded up to the .25 ton. The game does not have partial slots, so there is nothing we can do about that.

IS System	Standard Slot / Tonnage	Current Artemis Cost Slot / Ton	Proposed Artemis Cost Slot / Ton
SRM/2	1 / 1	2 / 2	2 / 1.25
SRM/4	1 / 2	2 / 3	2 / 2.5
SRM/6	2 / 3	3 / 4	3 / 4
LRM/5	1 / 2	2 / 3	2 / 2.5
LRM/10	2 / 5	3 / 6	3 / 6
LRM/15	3 / 7	4 / 8	4 / 8.5
LRM/20	5 / 10	6 / 11	6 / 12
SSRM/2	1 /1.5		2 / 2
SSRM/4	1 / 3		2 / 3.75
SSRM/6	2 / 4.5		2 / 5.5

[General Solo]

LikeUntoBuddha, on 03 September 2018 - 05:27 PM, said:

Wait, a Narc Summoner? I've tried to Narc and LRM but it has never really worked or probably, I just suck at playing this game.

Can you post that build?




The problem IMO is that a lot of mechs move.

This is a special mech because you have to be a bit crazy to drive it AND I only have two lerm mechs in my entire stable and this ones a lot of fun to use unlike my lock leaching Supernova, and can get its own lock in nearly any situation (OK Jamming on incursion you got me.)

https://mwo.smurfy-n...deab080e3ece329

How to use



Once use land the narc you don't have to aim or expose your mech anymore for a good 50 seconds.

Why I use it?
Clan Narc has awesome range, 600 metres, and the Summoner B's quirks add another 50 metres and 10 seconds extra duration. Plus with the narc skills you get even more duration (Muhahahaha) and a velocity boast to land those narc shots.

Lrms10 spread like 5's and go fer CT pretty good

Tips
Jump, narc, lerm from safety in that order, and run for your team when they come to geet ya.

Shooting the narc is kinda like firing a slow tiny invisible PPC, go for the slow and static targets especially assualt/heavy mechs

Always narc the ECM mechs first, this disables the ECM. If their two or three narc them all and kill them first. rest of the game will be ezier.

Use your speed to Narc/lrm from unexpected angles and positions.

Because the lerms are in the hands you can lerm as you are running away

And here's a video

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 03 September 2018 - 09:22 PM.

[vonJerg]

Same goes for any self narcing poptart: treb, hunchback 2c-b, huntsman,...

Edited by vonJerg, 04 September 2018 - 01:04 AM.

[Thorqemada]

LikeUntoBuddha, on 03 September 2018 - 05:21 PM, said:

I'm a bit confused. Distance EQUALS Artemis MINUS Standard? Am I reading that the wrong way?

Read it this way:
= behind this comes the result
- this is a Hyphen i used as spacer

Hope this makes it more clear for you

Edited by Thorqemada, 04 September 2018 - 09:00 AM.