450 replies to this topic

[D V Devnull]

Eisenhorne, on 11 September 2018 - 01:49 PM, said:

If you can't pull 1,000 damage on a regular basis in faction play, then you are doing a bad job playing this game. You need to ask for help in the forums here or on reddit, and get advice on how to properly build a drop deck, or on how to join a unit that will help you. If you have no interest in doing that, then you do not deserve whatever prize PGI is offering for the event.

Unfortunately, there are those who can't and/or won't communicate, which of course causes problems to teams. So PGI allowed Scouting, as to prevent those of us with more experience having to deal with their mentality. Sadly, it would be too damaging to both PGI -- and MWO's remaining Player Base -- to force people to get into Units and/or use Forums/Reddit, otherwise being left with no way to participate or earn from Events. Which by the way, MWO would have died already if there were no Events for Random PUGs to come along and earn from, because it's them keeping the queues loaded enough for the rest of us to even have Matches in any reasonable amount of time. Sure, people should DEFINITELY NOT bring Troll Builds ever to Faction Warfare, and I very much equally hate those. But trying to force everyone into a particular queue regardless of Skill Level or Play Style, or even trying to force them to play something they are naturally incapable of using, is just crossing the line in the wrong way. As much tonnage as reasonably possible in a Drop Deck should always be used for sure, but the Mechs present in the deck should work with the Pilot who's using them, not everyone else's expectation of what a Pilot should use.

Pardon me here, but I've really got to get back to my Drop Group. Hopefully, our posts and discourse are of some use to others reading them.

~D. V. "Yeah, I've been typing this while launching into battles." Devnull

[Jaeger Hunter]

Xumtiil, on 11 September 2018 - 02:46 PM, said:

I apologise if I drop my light mechs that I play well and offer support and targeting and the occasional airstrike. I'll make sure to drop four catapults with 2k lrm ammo each next time so I can actively fail to make a difference. But hey, over 1k damage, right?

-X

If you bring 4 lights in a Faction drop, I think that speaks for itself.

[Xumtiil]

Jaeger Hunter, on 11 September 2018 - 03:11 PM, said:

If you bring 4 lights in a Faction drop, I think that speaks for itself.

I just get antsy about guys putting an arbitrary number on damage and saying "you must be at least this big to be good at the game". The only thing it does is alienate players and make them feel less welcome if you're going to harp on the damage they did in a Faction drop and how it doesn't fit your standards of leetness. If you're as seasoned as you appear to be, then you realise that not all damage is equal - 500 pinpoint gauss is worth more than 500 all-over-the-place-lasers due to shielding. The first kills 3 atlas CT's with damage to spare, the second is barely enough to kill one atlas that can torso twist. Maaaybe two if you time it right and the winds are favourable. The arbitrary "1k damage or you suck" statement is pointless, which was what I was going for. Obviously nobody should drop 4 lights - unless it's prearranged for a siege where you're dropping 4 waves of K9's just to mess with the enemy's head.

[BumbaCLot]

Xumtiil, on 11 September 2018 - 02:46 PM, said:

I apologise if I drop my light mechs that I play well and offer support and targeting and the occasional airstrike. I'll make sure to drop four catapults with 2k lrm ammo each next time so I can actively fail to make a difference. But hey, over 1k damage, right?

-X

And I thought it was W for Win, not R all of these days..
Even PGI disagrees with you, and if you played FW you would know there is a 160 ton minimum drop deck limit.
So no, not all mechs are created equal when playing a half hour end-game 12 v 12 with 3 respawns.

Xumtiil, on 11 September 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

I just get antsy about guys putting an arbitrary number on damage and saying "you must be at least this big to be good at the game". The only thing it does is alienate players and make them feel less welcome if you're going to harp on the damage they did in a Faction drop and how it doesn't fit your standards of leetness. If you're as seasoned as you appear to be, then you realise that not all damage is equal - 500 pinpoint gauss is worth more than 500 all-over-the-place-lasers due to shielding. The first kills 3 atlas CT's with damage to spare, the second is barely enough to kill one atlas that can torso twist. Maaaybe two if you time it right and the winds are favourable. The arbitrary "1k damage or you suck" statement is pointless, which was what I was going for. Obviously nobody should drop 4 lights - unless it's prearranged for a siege where you're dropping 4 waves of K9's just to mess with the enemy's head.

And again, Eisenhorne is talking about Minimums. If you can't get 1000 damage with 4 LRM boats, you are not playing to the best of your ability or have poor mechs.
The concept of minimums or standards must be really hard for you to grasp.

[BumbaCLot]

D V Devnull, on 11 September 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

Catching up with a quote chain...


It's worse than that, people. If you only do about 800 damage, but lose all 4 Mechs, you can sometimes end up with sub-150 Match Score given to you. PGI has continued to fail to fix the Match Score System as to how it handles in Faction Warfare, as it really should only dock you upon your Final Death which puts you out of the Round, and not prior. Even then, it should only dock you once on that Final Death, instead of hitting you once for each time you're downed. So, when PGI tries to turn up the Match Score requirement on Faction-Based Events, it backfires in their faces. People jump out to Scouting in response because they feel like their effort when they're pug-stomped in an Invasion Queue Match is rendered meaningless. Heck, because of how the Match Score is handled in Faction Warfare right now, others try to then manipulate the situation by using their teammates as 'cannon fodder' while they hide in the back to survive with their sniper-type (as in, Gauss Rifles and ER Large Lasers... DEFINITELY NOT LRMs!) weaponry. That's just not right, simply put... If the other team is wrecking you, it should never have hit you 4 times by comparison to what Quick Play does to you on Match Score, and that's why people don't want to play Faction Warfare much at all. You should be able to use your Mechs as needed in a Faction Warfare Match, not get penalized because your Mech got too beat up to keep on using it (or you got stomped out of your Mech before you could use it), which of course makes you have to get a fresh one out of your Drop Deck. This is why the Match Score Requirements for Loot Bags are so low on Faction Warfare Events, because if it were any higher then people would just give up and leave.

By the way, if you're finding a teammate deciding to throw themselves into the fire, then get in there instead of hanging back and use their sacrifice to get some Enemy Mechs out of the Match. You might even manage to keep that Friendly Mech alive long enough for their Pilot's Brain to wake up and get with the game. But if that doesn't work, the real culprit of the problem here is PGI having not fixed the Match Score System, as well as their expectation that everyone would be able to reschedule their lives around needing 50 Matches that run about 30 minutes each. Not everyone has 25 Hours in 6 Days (Some people barely have a maximum of 2 Hours per Day or less at best!!!) to devote to Faction Warfare, and if things had been limited to Invasion Queue only, then participation would have been a hell of a lot lower as most players would have seen it as an insurmountable wall that they could never get past. Things like the Pick-A-Prize Champion (C) Heavy Mech and the Faction Camos in an Event like this are NOT meant by PGI to be out of the reach of their Newer Players. PGI set a goal for them to try to hit that was actually somewhat realistic based on PGI's own failings with Match Score Calculations. Yes, people need to NOT Suicide themselves, but many are feeling too choked for time and therefore they resort to equally insane things because they didn't get that Scouting was allowed here. Heck, the way Eisenhorne & BumbaCLot are each acting with just one of their posts in the Quote Chain feels far too much to me like they think they have some entitlement to reschedule other peoples' lives for them, and they simply do NOT. Not everyone is 'Tier 1' when they come into Faction Warfare, and the confidence of players from 'Tier 2' on down can be rather easily shaken, as it so happens they're not confident they could ever hit 1000 damage with 4 Mechs in total because of how their Quick Play games have gone. It's not possible to expect everyone to just be right on your level from the moment they start, as not everyone is capable of doing that!

~Mr. D. V. "Just speaking up for little folk who might read forums, but fail to post because they feel intimidated." Devnull

So in this comment you talk about PGI not fixing match score per death. I'm currently looking at a game from last night where 20 of 24 people in a match all broke 1000 damage. 15 were in the 1000s. 3 in the 2000s, and 2 in the 3000s.

It was an assault match with a final score of 48-46, and ran 24:26. Sounds like an ideal match in terms of time, match maker, gameplay, etc.. 19287 damage on winning team. 18389 on the losing team. I'm sure you can spot the averages here without a calculator.

Yes, as everyone but 2 on the winning side died 4 times, there was not a high match score. But it was a very balanced game!
Average damage per player was 1532 on the losing side!

So either you want high match score for inefficiency, complaints about stomps where one side will get a high match score, or to claim that under 800 damage is not bad and 1000 damage is not some MINIMUM CONSISTENT AVERAGE THRESHOLD.

So as far as informative posts go, to all of you who have never seen an extremely well balanced match, these are real numbers, and 1500 is average, and less than 1000 is bad. Doesn't matter if you are 'Tier 1 FP' or not. Those GOOD guys get 3000+ per match. I've broken 2000 and I've only been playing for a month. But I do and should feel bad if I don't break 1000. I had to have been playing sloppily (bad positioning or bad aim).

[Horseman]

Xumtiil, on 11 September 2018 - 02:46 PM, said:

I apologise if I drop my light mechs that I play well and offer support and targeting and the occasional airstrike. I'll make sure to drop four catapults with 2k lrm ammo each next time so I can actively fail to make a difference. But hey, over 1k damage, right?

1K damage with four mechs combined. That's a measly 250 damage per mech.

[Eisenhorne]

BumbaCLot, on 11 September 2018 - 05:44 PM, said:

So as far as informative posts go, to all of you who have never seen an extremely well balanced match, these are real numbers, and 1500 is average, and less than 1000 is bad. Doesn't matter if you are 'Tier 1 FP' or not. Those GOOD guys get 3000+ per match. I've broken 2000 and I've only been playing for a month. But I do and should feel bad if I don't break 1000. I had to have been playing sloppily (bad positioning or bad aim).

Yea, 1000 is the minimum because while it isn't enough to carry your own weight, it's likely you'll have a few players able to pick up some of the slack. 1500 is "I pulled my own weight", where you're generally doing enough work to give as good as you get. 2000+, and you're effectively making up for a couple of the guys pulling ~1000 damage. Players capable of doing 3,000 are pretty rare.

So, you can see the problem here then. If you're pulling 200 damage over 4 mechs, you're gonna need 3 players pulling 2k+ to make up for your performance. If you have 2 guys doing that on your team, that means half the team better be 2k+ players (which aren't THAT common in FP). And that's assuming the other 4 guys can pull their own weight, if they're beginners (doing ~1,000, but actually trying and not bringing garbage mechs) then the team is going to most likely lose because 2 players dragged everyone else down.

[Xumtiil]

What kind of drops and weapons did everyone have that you needed an average of 401.8125 damage for each mech to kill them? Genuinely curious, if the enemy is IS and drops four heavies to have the most consistent armour, that should still mean you'd nearly have to kill both arms and one leg before getting the kill nearly each time.

Also, your experience with fw drops is wildly different from mine. What timezone do you drop in? If my team has two breaking 1.5k it's weird. 2k is a lot, really exceptional. I've not seen one break 3k.

Also pointing out, I wasn't the one claiming I dropped lights *exclusively*.

[Aramuside]

Eisenhorne, on 11 September 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

I'm not sure, but I think it's calculated the same as QP score, but divided by the number of deaths. So you can get like a 1200+ match score game in Faction Play if you don't die and do a lot of damage (take an ER Sniper mech and score over 2K damage, its not too hard on some maps like Alpine) but you can get a match score of like 300 if you do the same damage but lose all 4 mechs.

Its one reason I hate spawn farming as even fighting every step of the way your stats can be awful. Pugging invasion on the IS during the event I ended up with a 0.58 win rate but still killed significantly more mechs than I lost, despite losing 4 in a lot of the matches. Effort was definitely not rewarded but at least I kept my self respect.

[Eisenhorne]

Xumtiil, on 11 September 2018 - 10:33 PM, said:

What kind of drops and weapons did everyone have that you needed an average of 401.8125 damage for each mech to kill them? Genuinely curious, if the enemy is IS and drops four heavies to have the most consistent armour, that should still mean you'd nearly have to kill both arms and one leg before getting the kill nearly each time.

Also, your experience with fw drops is wildly different from mine. What timezone do you drop in? If my team has two breaking 1.5k it's weird. 2k is a lot, really exceptional. I've not seen one break 3k.

Also pointing out, I wasn't the one claiming I dropped lights *exclusively*.

How much damage you need to do depends on the enemy a lot, honestly. If they're good at spreading damage, it can take 500-600 damage to take down an assault mech. Theoretically you could kill an annihilator with 250 damage direct to the CT... but that almost never happens. If your good enough, you'll lose a side torso first, then take damage to the CT, then die when the other side torso is blown off. It all depends on what kind of target you present.

Weapons that spread like lbx, missiles, racs, all inflate this number.

[Aramuside]

D V Devnull, on 11 September 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

Unfortunately, there are those who can't and/or won't communicate, which of course causes problems to teams. So PGI allowed Scouting, as to prevent those of us with more experience having to deal with their mentality. Sadly, it would be too damaging to both PGI -- and MWO's remaining Player Base -- to force people to get into Units and/or use Forums/Reddit, otherwise being left with no way to participate or earn from Events. Which by the way, MWO would have died already if there were no Events for Random PUGs to come along and earn from, because it's them keeping the queues loaded enough for the rest of us to even have Matches in any reasonable amount of time. Sure, people should DEFINITELY NOT bring Troll Builds ever to Faction Warfare, and I very much equally hate those. But trying to force everyone into a particular queue regardless of Skill Level or Play Style, or even trying to force them to play something they are naturally incapable of using, is just crossing the line in the wrong way. As much tonnage as reasonably possible in a Drop Deck should always be used for sure, but the Mechs present in the deck should work with the Pilot who's using them, not everyone else's expectation of what a Pilot should use.

Pardon me here, but I've really got to get back to my Drop Group. Hopefully, our posts and discourse are of some use to others reading them.

~D. V. "Yeah, I've been typing this while launching into battles." Devnull

Confused why you think scouting at all caters to that - scouting bores me as its almost always simply a very fast brawl with moderate skill displayed and negligible change in mechs from match to match.

[Aramuside]

Eisenhorne, on 11 September 2018 - 10:08 PM, said:

Yea, 1000 is the minimum because while it isn't enough to carry your own weight, it's likely you'll have a few players able to pick up some of the slack. 1500 is "I pulled my own weight", where you're generally doing enough work to give as good as you get. 2000+, and you're effectively making up for a couple of the guys pulling ~1000 damage. Players capable of doing 3,000 are pretty rare.

So, you can see the problem here then. If you're pulling 200 damage over 4 mechs, you're gonna need 3 players pulling 2k+ to make up for your performance. If you have 2 guys doing that on your team, that means half the team better be 2k+ players (which aren't THAT common in FP). And that's assuming the other 4 guys can pull their own weight, if they're beginners (doing ~1,000, but actually trying and not bringing garbage mechs) then the team is going to most likely lose because 2 players dragged everyone else down.

Theres a huge difference between being spawn camped and dropping solo into a slaughter than being able to make effective use of your four mechs. Same with organised vs pug drops - one you are immensely more likely to be effective due to coordinated mechs, tactics, focus firing, intelligence feeding and sharing of armour. The other you're fighting just to minimally coordinate and survive. Now if you mean in a more balanced situation of pugs vs pugs and no spawn camping I do agree.

[ERescue]

@All: I know I am very, very low on the player scale, I am very, very close to the bottom of tier 5. Even so I really have to point out one really important thing. Taking down a Mech does NOT require huge amounts of damage. Since damage taken is not an available stat (@PGI: I really think this should be added, by the way!) I need to guess, but I suspect that I have at times lost all four of Mechs with less than 250 points taken, total, despite fielding two assaults.

Constructive criticism is appreciated, but I am generally fairly comfortable with my own play style.

The following is not exact, more of an example:

My typical drop deck consists of Pirate's Bane (or a Flea), Sleipnir, an Annihilator ANH-1E and a Hunchback HBK-4P(S).

I prefer to open with the PB (mostly because Clan side has apparently taken a liking for Piranha / Arctic Cheetah rush openers, which are literally poison to my other three Mechs). The other three USUALLY follow in the order: ANH-1E, HBK-4P(S) and finally the Sleipnir.

If things go really badly south, match tends to go something like this: PB (or Flea) takes a massive hit to the head area from an Artillery or Air strike. Then a random (Artemis enhanced) C-LRM (usually size 5) strike kills head (about 20 to 30 points total, despite the presence of both ECM and AMS). Annihilator is hit in the back by a Piranha, Arctic Cheetah or similar. (about 25 points punctures the 21 point rear armour of CT and criticals wreck engine and/or gyro). HBK-4P(S) takes about 115 points from direct fire salvos to RT and splashing CT (and RA, which is ripped off by the loss of RT) and is basically wrecked (I usually get off a shot or two from the LA and head mounted MLs before some more agile unit hits rear CT, finishing me, about 15 more points is enough for this). Sleipnir takes about 70 to 90 from pin point salvos focused on either LT or RT, Gauss rifle explodes, XL engine is wrecked and I am out of Mechs.

Luckily, not all games end go that badly, but the truth is that as far as I can quickly recall, I have never in my entire MWO career exceeded 763 (this number might be slightly off, but should be in the correct range) damage, total for the four (or sometimes less, I do not always lose all four). Even so, I think I have played at least two FW matches with 46+ assists.

As for MS... I think most of my best all time scores come from QP games with the Kit Foxes (I have modified several to carry triple AMS and a fairly hefty amounts of AMS ammo).

[Horseman]

ERescue, on 12 September 2018 - 03:21 AM, said:

I know I am very, very low on the player scale, I am very, very close to the bottom of tier 5. Even so I really have to point out one really important thing. Taking down a Mech does NOT require huge amounts of damage.

Depends on how well he rolls damage, how focused the fire is and whether it touches off any explosive ammo .

I annihilated some heavies and Assaults in Solaris just by shearing off a single leg (great brawl practice btw).

Quote

I prefer to open with the PB

There are reasons for doing light/fast medium rushes and for front-loading your drops with assault mechs.
The rush requires a degree of coordination from your team, but properly executed it's likely to deprive the enemy of a substantial amount of armor and firepower, putting them at a disadvantage in the subsequent waves.
On the other hand, frontloading is a "safe and steady" approach - you engage the enemy with as much firepower as you can bring, in the hope of destroying their mechs fast enough that some of your assaults are still standing and killing stuff come wave 2.

Your 20-ton light doesn't fit in either of these - opening with it in a combat-oriented engagement effectively turns the fight into 12 v 11 in the enemy's favor. Where it will shine is cap-rushing in Domination and Conquest (although Spider 5V is pushing it out from the latter role now) and battery runs in Incursion.

Quote

Clan side has apparently taken a liking for Piranha / Arctic Cheetah rush openers, which are literally poison to my other three Mechs

Streaks, TAG and your choice between ECM (if your mech has a hardpoint for it) or BAP (if your mech can't do ECM) will devastate those lights if you can maintain a lock.

If you're running into rushes so often, I'd suggest taking a 55-ton streakboat: either a Bushwacker P1 with 5xSSRM-4 or Griffin 2N with 4xSSRM-6. The P1 was my go-to scouting mech for better part of last year.

Quote

If things go really badly south, match tends to go something like this: PB (or Flea) takes a massive hit to the head area from an Artillery or Air strike.

You have several seconds to spot the strike before it goes off. With either of these mechs you shouldn't be standing still in locations exposed to your enemy in the first place.

Quote

about 25 points punctures the 21 point rear armour of CT and criticals wreck engine and/or gyro

MWO doesn't model engine or gyro damage, other than the side torso loss penalty with CXL/LF engines.

Quote

The other three USUALLY follow in the order: ANH-1E, HBK-4P(S) and finally the Sleipnir.(...)Sleipnir takes about 70 to 90 from pin point salvos focused on either LT or RT, Gauss rifle explodes, XL engine is wrecked and I am out of Mechs.

Your Sleipnir should not be taking an XL engine in the first place, and dropping a Gauss mech up against final wave (usually lights/mediums) is a recipe for disaster. If you haven't encountered enemy lights/mediums until then, this is where your streakboat should drop.

Quote

Luckily, not all games end go that badly, but the truth is that as far as I can quickly recall, I have never in my entire MWO career exceeded 763 (this number might be slightly off, but should be in the correct range) damage, total for the four (or sometimes less, I do not always lose all four). Even so, I think I have played at least two FW matches with 46+ assists.

Rule one of improvement... iterate. Analyze how much you've done with each of your mechs and whether it was or was not an asset to your team. If you deal too little damage with a combat mech, it may be time to either find a different build or switch it for another mech altogether.

Edited by Horseman, 12 September 2018 - 05:51 AM.

[BumbaCLot]

ERescue, on 12 September 2018 - 03:21 AM, said:

@All: I know I am very, very low on the player scale, I am very, very close to the bottom of tier 5. Even so I really have to point out one really important thing. Taking down a Mech does NOT require huge amounts of damage. Since damage taken is not an available stat (@PGI: I really think this should be added, by the way!) I need to guess, but I suspect that I have at times lost all four of Mechs with less than 250 points taken, total, despite fielding two assaults.

Constructive criticism is appreciated, but I am generally fairly comfortable with my own play style.

The following is not exact, more of an example:

My typical drop deck consists of Pirate's Bane (or a Flea), Sleipnir, an Annihilator ANH-1E and a Hunchback HBK-4P(S).

I prefer to open with the PB (mostly because Clan side has apparently taken a liking for Piranha / Arctic Cheetah rush openers, which are literally poison to my other three Mechs). The other three USUALLY follow in the order: ANH-1E, HBK-4P(S) and finally the Sleipnir.

If things go really badly south, match tends to go something like this: PB (or Flea) takes a massive hit to the head area from an Artillery or Air strike. Then a random (Artemis enhanced) C-LRM (usually size 5) strike kills head (about 20 to 30 points total, despite the presence of both ECM and AMS). Annihilator is hit in the back by a Piranha, Arctic Cheetah or similar. (about 25 points punctures the 21 point rear armour of CT and criticals wreck engine and/or gyro). HBK-4P(S) takes about 115 points from direct fire salvos to RT and splashing CT (and RA, which is ripped off by the loss of RT) and is basically wrecked (I usually get off a shot or two from the LA and head mounted MLs before some more agile unit hits rear CT, finishing me, about 15 more points is enough for this). Sleipnir takes about 70 to 90 from pin point salvos focused on either LT or RT, Gauss rifle explodes, XL engine is wrecked and I am out of Mechs.

Luckily, not all games end go that badly, but the truth is that as far as I can quickly recall, I have never in my entire MWO career exceeded 763 (this number might be slightly off, but should be in the correct range) damage, total for the four (or sometimes less, I do not always lose all four). Even so, I think I have played at least two FW matches with 46+ assists.

As for MS... I think most of my best all time scores come from QP games with the Kit Foxes (I have modified several to carry triple AMS and a fairly hefty amounts of AMS ammo).

That's quite telling, and Horseman went over most of the major points.
I play almost exclusively in 6-12 man FP groups, and we've never taken lights first drop outside of conquest, and then only 3-4 at most.
Your first mech needs to be your major damage dealer, full stop. Faction play is a snowballing game, and your goal should be to gain either a tonnage advantage, kill advantage, or cap advantage on the first wave. Bringing your worst mech first is hurting your team and helping the enemy as that locust isn't able to pump out the damage needed to accomplish the kill lead. Tonnage lead can be another option, but needs to be coordinated. You are most likely out of sync from your team, and unless in the 1-10 minute window a group asks you to bring a light you probably shouldn't.
I'd be surprised if they aren't telling you to NOT do that, and you are anyway.

[Eisenhorne]

ERescue, on 12 September 2018 - 03:21 AM, said:

@All: I know I am very, very low on the player scale, I am very, very close to the bottom of tier 5. Even so I really have to point out one really important thing. Taking down a Mech does NOT require huge amounts of damage. Since damage taken is not an available stat (@PGI: I really think this should be added, by the way!) I need to guess, but I suspect that I have at times lost all four of Mechs with less than 250 points taken, total, despite fielding two assaults.

Constructive criticism is appreciated, but I am generally fairly comfortable with my own play style.

The following is not exact, more of an example:

My typical drop deck consists of Pirate's Bane (or a Flea), Sleipnir, an Annihilator ANH-1E and a Hunchback HBK-4P(S).

I prefer to open with the PB (mostly because Clan side has apparently taken a liking for Piranha / Arctic Cheetah rush openers, which are literally poison to my other three Mechs). The other three USUALLY follow in the order: ANH-1E, HBK-4P(S) and finally the Sleipnir.

If things go really badly south, match tends to go something like this: PB (or Flea) takes a massive hit to the head area from an Artillery or Air strike. Then a random (Artemis enhanced) C-LRM (usually size 5) strike kills head (about 20 to 30 points total, despite the presence of both ECM and AMS). Annihilator is hit in the back by a Piranha, Arctic Cheetah or similar. (about 25 points punctures the 21 point rear armour of CT and criticals wreck engine and/or gyro). HBK-4P(S) takes about 115 points from direct fire salvos to RT and splashing CT (and RA, which is ripped off by the loss of RT) and is basically wrecked (I usually get off a shot or two from the LA and head mounted MLs before some more agile unit hits rear CT, finishing me, about 15 more points is enough for this). Sleipnir takes about 70 to 90 from pin point salvos focused on either LT or RT, Gauss rifle explodes, XL engine is wrecked and I am out of Mechs.

Luckily, not all games end go that badly, but the truth is that as far as I can quickly recall, I have never in my entire MWO career exceeded 763 (this number might be slightly off, but should be in the correct range) damage, total for the four (or sometimes less, I do not always lose all four). Even so, I think I have played at least two FW matches with 46+ assists.

As for MS... I think most of my best all time scores come from QP games with the Kit Foxes (I have modified several to carry triple AMS and a fairly hefty amounts of AMS ammo).

OK, some unsolicited advice that will (I think) help you do better in FP -

1) Always drop heaviest to lightest. Your first wave needs to be able to take out the enemy's first wave assaults, and clans do not often do light rushes. They might have 1-2 Piranhas, but heavies and assaults can handle them. You need to stay together, and if a light gets in close, the guy at the back turns to deal with it. Any assault mech can handle a Piranha, and if he face hugs so you can't, a teammate can easily shoot him off because he's stationary and not moving. You need to be heavy on wave 1 to punch through the Mad Cat II's and other big mechs the clanners might have, and the Pirates Bane doesn't have the firepower to do it. Unless your entire team is light rushing, stay in at least a heavy mech wave 1.

2) Mech selections - I'm personally not a fan of the ANH-1E, compared to the other Annihilators it is generally less useful. The best build I've seen for it is this. I'm not sure how you're running it, but I'd consider swapping it for an Annihilator ANH-1A (2 heavy gauss), or an ANH-2A (various good builds). That said, it can do some work, its just harder to make useful, and generally will do less damage / kills than the other ANH variants.

What's your Sleipnir build looking like? It can run 2 heavy gauss, 4 UAC/5 (my favorite), or 4 LBX10 fairly well. Not sure which you're using, but posting a link to the build on Smurfy's could help see if there's an issue. It's a very good mech, so if there's a problem with the build it can be fixed. It should never be using an XL engine, and probably shouldn't be running a regular gauss rifle build, since the Warhammer can do dual gauss loadouts very well at 20 tons lighter. General rule of thumb, if you can do a loadout on a lighter mech, you take the lighter mech.

The HBK-4P, not sure how you're running it, but it can be done in a number of decent configurations, just be sure you have a bunch of either small pulse, medium pulse, or ER Mediums to work at whatever range you want. Don't mix laser types that have different ranges. You can do a Large Laser + ER Mediums, but don't do half small pulse and an ER Large laser.

The PB, I'd swap for a Commando, since the PB's are kind of fickle, and running 2-3 SRM4 on a Commando is much easier to rack up damage and kills with IMO. Commando's are much better in Light vs Light combat, which is what you'll be looking at mostly when you're at the final wave.

3) Think about what you're enemy is likely to do, and try to counter that. The "normal" FP guidelines are to take heaviest first, an work down. So the last wave will be a lot of lights and light mediums. So plan your last wave to counter them, either as a light mech that can fight other light mechs, or a medium / heavy that's well equipped at taking out light mechs. If you're a very good shot with Lasers or Gauss, you can use them against light mechs to devastating effect, but you have to be a good shot with them. First wave, make sure you're able to kill what you're most likely to see, which is clan heavies and assaults.

4) Don't get too comfortable with a single playstyle, and a single set of mechs. Be versatile, depending on the map and game mode. I'd take very different mechs / playstyles to HPG Manifold than I would do Rubelite Oasis. I'm not sure how many mech bays you have, but you should have mechs of all different types (eventually) to take to different maps. To properly be prepared to do FP, you should have a pretty wide selection of options you can take, in either brawling, trading, sniping, or missile configurations. Having only a single set of mechs to work with in FP. Consider what you're missing, and what you should buy next. I know the game is kind of low in players, but consider buying premium time to help get cbills faster, it makes a huge difference. I can make ~1 million in an average FP game, and it means I can get any mech I need pretty fast.

Make a more specific post in the FP sub forum if you have any more questions or anything. Magic Pain Glove has a decent IS Drop Deck guide posted in the IS FP sub forum, so check that out too.

Edited by Eisenhorne, 12 September 2018 - 06:12 AM.

[ERescue]

@Horseman, BumbaCLot & Eisenhorne: I really appreciate the answers, but I am left with multiple counter questions:

1) Are you telling me that PB despite its speed and ECM is completely useless vs Piranha / Arctic Cheetah, etc. rushes in wave 1 & 2 and that I should retire it from my drop deck entirely? Hmmm. :/ The answer appears to be yes.

2) That can not be right, because a Piranha is physically unable to alpha strike my Annihilators rear CT with 88+ points of damage, which would be the minimum to delete all rear CT armour (21) and CT structure (67) in one blow and I have a standard engine on it, so side torso XL kill can not apply... *scratches head* Explain, please? Is there some Piranha configuration that DOES have 88+ point alpha? Or 44+ point alpha that can be fired twice within 2 seconds without overheating?

3) Errmm... Again, my usual experience differs heavily. For me a typical opponent for my Hunchback and Sleipnir tends to be something along the lines of Timber or Dire Wolf, Mad Cat Mk IICs and occasional Kodiaks... with Timber Wolves being pretty common. In other words, the clan decks I tend to encounter are very front light and end heavy... Tier difference playing a role here? Or 100% PUGs for both sides vs premades on both sides difference?

4) My Hunchback has only one weapon type: 7 standard model medium lasers. It also has AMS with minimal ammo for a bit of extra protection and despite double heat sinks runs hot as is.

Additional note: I almost exclusively PUG as my closest friends are usually unable to join me and on top of that almost exclusively QP when they do, I think we have made something like 1 FW drop during the entire year as a team.

My current conclusion is that both of my decks appear to be based on entirely wrong principles and the simplest fix would be to entirely replace them both... Thank you to everyone, but it appears that my current best option is to entirely quit FW and stick to QP only... As said in the beginning, answers were really appreciated. *bows*

[Eisenhorne]

The Pirates Bane can be used effectively, but it's not really a "combat light" unless you are an extremely good pilot. Arctic Cheetahs and Piranhas both drastically out-gun the PB though, so it's not going to win a fight against them. It's more of a capping mech for modes like Conquest, where it's speed and ECM are huge assets. Light mechs like the Wolfhound, Javelin, Urbanmech, and Commando are much better at clan lights, and so are generally more useful.

Not sure exactly what you mean by point 2), but yea a Piranha won't kill an Annihilator in 1 hit. It will try to get behind you though, and it's machine guns will very quickly destroy you from the back. If you see it coming, you can often cripple it before it gets into position behind you, and if you keep turning and twisting to keep from giving it your back, you can keep it busy for a long time before either killing it or someone else getting into position to kill it.

By point 3), if you mean that you're seeing lots of clanners drop assaults / heavies 3rd and 4th, then that's an unusual behavior from what I've seen. Most clanners front-load their decks. There is no FP matchmaker, so it can't really be a tier difference. Premades will do this sometimes, if they're doing a light rush or something, but in my experience it's not common.

On the HBK-4P, I'd probably swap out the medium lasers for medium pulses myself, because then it's a lot easier to kill lights / mediums with it, but you can probably make 7 mediums work.

I'd probably focus on making tweaks to the drop deck / mechs I have until I'm able to consistently do 1,000 damage per drop average, then do solo drops until you see a premade group of a couple of people with the same tag on your side, then ask to join them. If you do 1,000+ damage in the match with them, you are better than the average PUG player, so they will usually let you join their group. Make sure you're willing to join their teamspeak or discord. Do this enough, and you'll eventually make a network of friends. This is basically how I progressed in FP... work on basics / mech selections until I'm able to hold my own, then find people to group with.

[Horseman]

ERescue, on 12 September 2018 - 06:22 AM, said:

1) Are you telling me that PB despite its speed and ECM is completely useless vs Piranha / Arctic Cheetah, etc. rushes in wave 1 & 2 and that I should retire it from my drop deck entirely? Hmmm. :/ The answer appears to be yes.

In short, yes. You can't kill them as fast as they kill you.

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2) That can not be right, because a Piranha is physically unable to alpha strike my Annihilators rear CT with 88+ points of damage, which would be the minimum to delete all rear CT armour (21) and CT structure (67) in one blow and I have a standard engine on it, so side torso XL kill can not apply... *scratches head* Explain, please? Is there some Piranha configuration that DOES have 88+ point alpha? Or 44+ point alpha that can be fired twice within 2 seconds without overheating?

1. Critical hits deal bonus damage, which can be quite substantial. Machine guns AFAIK have a high chance to crit.
2. Machine gun Piranhas do not overheat, they can sustain fire from their MGs and back it up with a couple lasers if needed.

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all rear CT armour (21)

Further note... this is way too much rear armor. If you're getting flanked, your teammates should be close enough to get the little **** off your back

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3) Errmm... Again, my usual experience differs heavily. For me a typical opponent for my Hunchback and Sleipnir tends to be something along the lines of Timber or Dire Wolf, Mad Cat Mk IICs and occasional Kodiaks... with Timber Wolves being pretty common. In other words, the clan decks I tend to encounter are very front light and end heavy... Tier difference playing a role here? Or 100% PUGs for both sides vs premades on both sides difference?

Light rushes occur mainly if the enemy team is reasonably coordinated.
Tiers only make a difference - supposedly - in Quick Play. Faction Play doesn't.

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Additional note: I almost exclusively PUG as my closest friends are usually unable to join me and on top of that almost exclusively QP when they do, I think we have made something like 1 FW drop during the entire year as a team.

Then find new friends who also drop in FW! There are multiple voice chat hubs you can find players on - cf https://reddit.com/r...coming_edition/

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My current conclusion is that both of my decks appear to be based on entirely wrong principles and the simplest fix would be to entirely replace them both...

I replaced mine multiple times over, usually all it takes to cross 1K is reconsidering loadouts and playing more cautiously - as you get more experienced you'll find yourself doing better.

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Thank you to everyone, but it appears that my current best option is to entirely quit FW and stick to QP only...

No, it's not. You're forgetting: we were all in the same place as you once. We just kept at it until we "got" FW.
Analyze what's going on, what kind of builds works when, and iterate over this.

Edited by Horseman, 12 September 2018 - 07:49 AM.

[ERescue]

@Eisenhorne: Yet again, very much appreciated... but based on your last post, my best move is to quit. I ran a check on my statistics... If I am reading them correctly, my PB outperforms all Commandos, Javelins and Urbanmechs I have played and is almost on par with the only Wolfhound I have stats for from current period.

Regarding point 2, that was exactly the thing, based on the input from the game, Piranhas ARE able to kill my Annihilator within the space of about 2 seconds, which if Horseman's statement is correct means they are able to do 88+ points of damage within that time.

Point 3, yes... The typical clan opening I see tends towards 2 to 6 Piranhas, multiple Arctic Cheetahs and a smattering of other types, often (fast) medium weight laser vomits or (S)SRM boats.

Point 4, I have to consider this, but as I noted, my Hunchback typically faces heavies and assaults and as far as I can tell, firepower is more decisive against them than pin point accuracy.

As to your last point, this is the main reason I am thinking of quitting FW entirely. According to my statistics, I do not own a single IS mech that would qualify for an average damage of 250+ points and weigh in at 65 tons or less. In other words, even buying three additional copies of any of my best IS Mechs would systematically leave me at significantly under 1000 damage. In fact, the available data suggests that 763 points I cited was an abnormally high figure that happens less than 0,5% of the time.

Judging by the responses this means that I am simply not good enough to play FW in any organized form, ever. Depending on what PGI does, I will probably make very short term visits for any events that interest me enough and try to be as little "dead weight" as I can during those short periods. I must treat FW the same I need to treat raiding in World of Warcraft... Cause minimal harm to other friendly players by avoiding situations where said harm can occur...

@Horseman: Unfortunately analyzing the data PGI provides seems to indicate that the fault lies in me, not the Mechs. In other words, given identical machines, against any opponent of any tier, I have about 80-98% chance to lose any 1 vs 1 combat. Additionally, it seems to suggest that I am at my best while using machines that I am not allowed to take into FW as I play on IS side. *sigh*

Closing note: Thank you, everybody, but there is no apparent way out of my situation. As I have played both with and against D V Devnull, I am going to wait and see, what sort of input he will be able to offer (when / if he reads this).