84 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

VonBruinwald, on 01 September 2018 - 05:08 PM, said:

You say that, this event will give a better view of tech disparity given that a large amount of players will play both sides of the event for the KMDD/Solo Kill challenge.

If the Jags get a clear win then it will be down to tech and not the "elite players" all stacking one side.

Do not forget that IS has a weight advantage..

[Nightbird]

12 urbies, 12 crabs, 12 linebackers, 12 fleas... you want to know what can't kill 12 mechs?

[K O Z A K]

VonBruinwald, on 01 September 2018 - 05:08 PM, said:

You say that, this event will give a better view of tech disparity given that a large amount of players will play both sides of the event for the KMDD/Solo Kill challenge.

If the Jags get a clear win then it will be down to tech and not the "elite players" all stacking one side.

if you say so I mean I think there are a [Redacted] of other variables, but that's just me, I'm not fond of simple answers to complex questions

Edited by draiocht, 02 September 2018 - 10:47 PM.
inappropriate language

[Grus]

I mean assassins can be a pain.. but have you ran into 12 spl novas?

[MischiefSC]

Eisenhorne, on 01 September 2018 - 12:43 PM, said:

12 ASN pilots vs 12 LBK pilots, assuming equal skill, will be a fairly even fight actually. The ASN have less hitpoints, but are more agile, can jump, have better hitboxes, and have more accurate weapon groupings. The LBK are significantly tankier, and have significantly more firepower.

I'd give it to the team with better coordination, and that can better arrange a numerical advantage. If those 12 ASN catch 4 LBK by themselves and kill or maim them before the rest can assist, then they win hands own. Same if the LBK catch some ASN off guard. It would be a pretty fair fight IMO.

As for the original point... Haze is right. Any team able to field 12 assassins as a rush is a team that is coordinated team, one where they players are interested in working together and playing as a single team instead of solo pugging and doing whatever they want. They are going to win unless your team does the same.

I have beaten 12 man assassin rushes from good units (and 12 man crab rushes, which are also quite good especially with the LRM meta) and the key is seeing it coming, and positioning correctly. You need to form a firing line, and make sure to cripple a few of them on the way in. Assassins are hard to hit, but 2-3 solid alphas from hellbringers will take one's leg off (assuming you can shoot decently well, you're gonna land a lot of your burn on the leg but obviously not all of it because they're hard targets).

If you coordinate fire, and have a good position, you can take them down. If you're all in LRM boats, you need to spread out, and your NARC light needs to spot them coming and get into position to spot them. IF you're LRM'ing and don't have a skilled NARC light, then yea you're going to lose because you have a poor team composition. If you're in snipers, you also need to spread out, and make damn sure you have a lot of open ground all around you to force the assassins to run across a killing field.

Its not easy to deal with, but a coordinated team can definitely beat it. The trick is to beat it by enough. If you beat an assassin wave with assaults 12-9, they've won, because it was a very effective tonnage trade. You need to beat it like 12-4 or something to actually consider the wave a win.

12 assassins isn't what it used to be. It used to be a solid match for 12 LBKs but really not so much anymore unless it's really tight confines. West side of Frozen City of Sulfurous or the like but nobody runs 12 LBKs there. If there's any open terrain having almost 50% more health and 66% more firepower makes for a huge advantage that JJs and narrow hitboxes just doesn't bridge. KCom has run in to that a few time on Incursion - there's a couple of teams that do 12 ASN base rushes and we would go intercept them.

I haven't heard of anyone doing it as a kills strat in a while for IS. Just so many better options.

It's still a strong choice for the tonnage though.

[Eisenhorne]

MischiefSC, on 01 September 2018 - 10:33 PM, said:

It's still a strong choice for the tonnage though.

Yea, that's mostly the point. Even if the Linebackers win... each one is 25 tons heavier. As long as the assassins take out most of them, and maybe cripple the rest, it's a successful wave.

It's pretty rare to run into a LBK rush when doing an ASN rush. And honestly, the only time my groups run assassin rushes are on defense maps where we jump the gate to take out assaults, and incursion to intercept potential rushes coming to our base.

[Horseman]

Vellron2005, on 01 September 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

So, it seems to me that a wave of 12 assassins can annihilate a wave of 12 most anything in this game..

Why is this?

Because the enemy team coordinated their builds and strategy where yours didn't. 12 of pretty much anything can annihilate a wave of anything else if the first team coordinates and focuses fire where the other does not.

[Mystere]

Who would have thought that teamwork was still OP?

Edited by Mystere, 02 September 2018 - 12:09 AM.

[UnKnownPlayer]

We sometimes bring ASN waves, mostly on Polar because it's an awful map, fight with LRMs and ERLL / ERPPC to about 25-15 and then time out? I'd rather not.

The ASN waves used to work if at least 6 people brought them, now they only work if at least 10 people bring them, less than that and their squishyness makes them too easy to kill especially if the enemy shoots the legs like they are supposed to.
People lose against ASN rushes when they shoot the torsos, which are bugged. But if you're shooting the torsos then you kind of deserve to lose to the rush.

VeggieJellyBean called pugs against us last night and got them shooting legs, because we could only field 6-7 ASNs (pug herding somewhat as well) his team traded well and it was a super close match which was fun instead of a boring snipe fest, so thanks for that Jelly!

[El Bandito]

Clans have no reason to complain when they have Linebackers/Arctic Wolves.

[The6thMessenger]

Vellron2005, on 01 September 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

Dear PGI, please nerf the mechs that kills me because i couldn't be bothered to adjust my playstyle.

Lol.

Almost anything is op when team is coordinated and is doing rushes like this. Where is your outrage for 2xHGR cyclops rushes? What about Linebacker rushes with 6x srm6s? This seems rather selective, and I would guess its because you're being nabbed by Assassin rushes as being lurm-boats.



LRM OP, nerf pl0x

Edited by The6thMessenger, 02 September 2018 - 03:39 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Eisenhorne, on 01 September 2018 - 12:43 PM, said:

12 ASN pilots vs 12 LBK pilots, assuming equal skill, will be a fairly even fight actually. The ASN have less hitpoints, but are more agile, can jump, have better hitboxes, and have more accurate weapon groupings. The LBK are significantly tankier, and have significantly more firepower.

I'd give it to the team with better coordination, and that can better arrange a numerical advantage. If those 12 ASN catch 4 LBK by themselves and kill or maim them before the rest can assist, then they win hands own. Same if the LBK catch some ASN off guard. It would be a pretty fair fight IMO.

As for the original point... Haze is right. Any team able to field 12 assassins as a rush is a team that is coordinated team, one where they players are interested in working together and playing as a single team instead of solo pugging and doing whatever they want. They are going to win unless your team does the same.

I have beaten 12 man assassin rushes from good units (and 12 man crab rushes, which are also quite good especially with the LRM meta) and the key is seeing it coming, and positioning correctly. You need to form a firing line, and make sure to cripple a few of them on the way in. Assassins are hard to hit, but 2-3 solid alphas from hellbringers will take one's leg off (assuming you can shoot decently well, you're gonna land a lot of your burn on the leg but obviously not all of it because they're hard targets).

If you coordinate fire, and have a good position, you can take them down. If you're all in LRM boats, you need to spread out, and your NARC light needs to spot them coming and get into position to spot them. IF you're LRM'ing and don't have a skilled NARC light, then yea you're going to lose because you have a poor team composition. If you're in snipers, you also need to spread out, and make damn sure you have a lot of open ground all around you to force the assassins to run across a killing field.

Its not easy to deal with, but a coordinated team can definitely beat it. The trick is to beat it by enough. If you beat an assassin wave with assaults 12-9, they've won, because it was a very effective tonnage trade. You need to beat it like 12-4 or something to actually consider the wave a win.

Isn't this though how it's always been, even before the Assassin, a first round light mech wave coordinated wrecked face, against any team that didn't call targets and act on those calls. It was popular because of the tonnage trade.

If you were really well organised, in defence you took jumping lights, went over the gates, and took a leg off the attackers, so thy either had to eject, or eat up the clock limping to the gates, and gens

[Captain Caveman DE]

they really have to fix teamplay, it's so OP. it doesn't belong in a teamplay-based game, right?
and yeah, how does anybody dare to charge the backseating lurmboat..?
nah, can't have that.

[TWIAFU]

Grus, on 01 September 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

Dont aim for the legs aim at the hip.

Vellron2005, on 01 September 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

So, it seems to me that a wave of 12 assassins can annihilate a wave of 12 most anything in this game..

Why is this?

1) Assassin is punching above it's weight

2) Assassin has well known hit-reg issues.

3) Assassin is too fast for close range lock-ons

4) Even if you shoot it in the legs, it's lagshield gives it what feels like triple Atlas hitpoints per leg..

So please PGI, do something to make this game somewhat more fain and enjoyable, fix the assassin, and stop these frustrating assassin rushes.

It's just absurd that 12 assassins can destroy 12 on any other mech in this game.

So, your back to wanting nerf's on what kills your missle boats?

LOL.

Your going to be one salty test tube baby once you die to our Urbie Rushes then we can all laugh at you more with your "nerf Urbies, they killed me!" thread.

Grus, on 01 September 2018 - 09:24 PM, said:

I mean assassins can be a pain.. but have you ran into 12 spl novas?

Those are fine, they are Clan. Only things that need nerfing are the mechs that kill his missle boats.

And teamwork. And Groups. VOIP.

El Bandito, on 02 September 2018 - 03:10 AM, said:

Clans have no reason to complain when they have Linebackers/Arctic Wolves.

OP cant boat missles on them and since he does not die to them no reason to nerf them.

Captain Caveman DE, on 02 September 2018 - 04:15 AM, said:

they really have to fix teamplay, it's so OP. it doesn't belong in a teamplay-based game, right?
and yeah, how does anybody dare to charge the backseating lurmboat..?
nah, can't have that.

And since the OP made such a 'good' name for himself not surprised he is singled out to be PD'd first.

[Asym]

panzer1b, on 01 September 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

Im pretty much under the impression that an organized rush of ANY 12 mechs that are all a similar playstyle will beat the crap out of another team that doesnt bring a hard counter to said 12 mechs on their own 12 mech strat.

And..............this is why 12 man teams don't work... We've seen this for years. Every advanced team has tried it and it drove off dozens of teams....literally, because it's an "exploit" to an uncontrolled game.... A tactical meta that isn't easily countered or that can be mitigated. Especially, if the team they are playing are several levels lower in team skill...

Once a "team" realizes they are in over their heads and have no hope of having any fun......they leave en masse.... It's why we are where we are today.... It's time to limit teams to three players and those players can not combine "divisions of three" into a team. Otherwise, we will never have enough players and especially, enough "average players and teams" to make the population viable.... I know, thoughts like mine anger some because they took the time to become "skilled and above average"...... Sorry, but if the game creates a huge skill disparity, the only players left are the new (who won't stay) and the vets who can control everything else (all by themselves because there is no one left.......)

It's a binary path to failure.....a Mobius loop of sorts......we keep cutting down the middle and expect change; and, all we get is a larger problem and yet, we cut along the line in the middle of the loop and once again, expect change to work.... The math is against us.....logic is against us.....and "real change" can only occur when you cut the loop 90 degrees off the center line, cutting the loop in half; which, creates a "new reality".......a new paradigm.....a new way of doing business.... Sorry, you can't change the math and my example is what PGI is doing....

Edited by Asym, 02 September 2018 - 05:21 AM.

[MrXanthios]

I would settle for fixing those hitboxes, since right now they look like this

[SmokeGuar]

Those numbers you see on event page are almost certainly result of large amount of scouting. On invasion side Jags have taken rather bad beating. If PGI releases stats after event you can do more accurate assessment on general "balance".

Fact remains, IS side has mechs, when used in coordinated fashion, are game breaking experience for other side.

[Captain Caveman DE]

TWIAFU, on 02 September 2018 - 04:33 AM, said:

And since the OP made such a 'good' name for himself not surprised he is singled out to be PD'd first.

I don't even single him out; it just -happens-
you know.. flanking the enemy with a mech with decent speed, circling around their deathball and .. guess who you find alone in the backfield..
and then you get called out for having something against him, when all you do is eating alive a lurmboat that doesn't position itself well and doesn't learn from the last 2 dozen times

[UnKnownPlayer]

SmokeGuar, on 02 September 2018 - 06:09 AM, said:

Those numbers you see on event page are almost certainly result of large amount of scouting. On invasion side Jags have taken rather bad beating. If PGI releases stats after event you can do more accurate assessment on general "balance".

Fact remains, IS side has mechs, when used in coordinated fashion, are game breaking experience for other side.

So does the clan side, don't pretend otherwise.

The problem is teamwork, nothing else, you CAN remove teams from the mode, i suspect many unit players would just leave that point as they continue to play for the 12 man teamwork aspect of the game. You CAN have 2 seperate queues, that will most like devolve in to experienced solo droppers farming the life out of seals and without a team to work with and voice comms the players in there are unlikely to improve, come in to contact with the units so new recruitment will likely fade away somewhat.
You CAN create a match maker to deal with some of the grouping imbalance but it depends on what the matchmaker measures in order to make it effective as you might find that there are skill islands in certain positions where people with similar ability languish, and again, if they are not exposed to different levels of ability they won't improve.

A great deal more effort at getting people in to the community, providing training resources, easier and more obvious access to TS, Discord, faction hub information etc would go a long way to prevent people being obliterated by that terrible premade uber baddy.

[Jman5]

Keep in mind for solo queue, where most people play, when you bring a 40 ton Assassin it will automatically match you against another medium. So it's likely you have just gifted the other team a 10-15 ton advantage with your matchup. Would you rather have an Assassin or a Bushwacker?