84 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Eisenhorne, on 01 September 2018 - 11:25 PM, said:

Yea, that's mostly the point. Even if the Linebackers win... each one is 25 tons heavier. As long as the assassins take out most of them, and maybe cripple the rest, it's a successful wave.

It's pretty rare to run into a LBK rush when doing an ASN rush. And honestly, the only time my groups run assassin rushes are on defense maps where we jump the gate to take out assaults, and incursion to intercept potential rushes coming to our base.

Yeah, it's a great early wave mech. Less so vs Piranhas but it'll win tonnage trades on assaults and heavies on most maps.

I dream of an Assassin with like 8+ ballistic hardpoints. JJs for DAYS. Would play like an anime mecha.

PGI has gone full "Will do whatever to sell a mech pack" since the PIR. Someone should tweet Russ about a Assassin hero that's like a PIR on steroids for the IS.

[Davegt27]

Vellron2005, on 01 September 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

So, it seems to me that a wave of 12 assassins can annihilate a wave of 12 most anything in this game..

Why is this?

1) Assassin is punching above it's weight

2) Assassin has well known hit-reg issues.

3) Assassin is too fast for close range lock-ons

4) Even if you shoot it in the legs, it's lagshield gives it what feels like triple Atlas hitpoints per leg..

So please PGI, do something to make this game somewhat more fain and enjoyable, fix the assassin, and stop these frustrating assassin rushes.

It's just absurd that 12 assassins can destroy 12 on any other mech in this game.

Vallron2005 interesting problem

I am taking a break since the 10 match penalty for switching factions is kind of a pain

question could 12 man Linebackers counter the Assassins?

I also have seen 12 man Piranha rush wreck face that might be a solution

anyways back in the day I would have said get streaks
you will have to come up with new better tactics to fight top teams

remember you have to give them a different look

GLHF

[Horseman]

Asym, on 02 September 2018 - 05:19 AM, said:

And..............this is why 12 man teams don't work... We've seen this for years. Every advanced team has tried it and it drove off dozens of teams....literally, because it's an "exploit" to an uncontrolled game.... A tactical meta that isn't easily countered or that can be mitigated. Especially, if the team they are playing are several levels lower in team skill...

Teamwork is not an exploit and it's easily mitigated: get on the damn comms and work with your team!

[Redacted]

Quote

I know, thoughts like mine anger some because they took the time to become "skilled and above average"...... Sorry, but if the game creates a huge skill disparity, the only players left are the new (who won't stay) and the vets who can control everything else (all by themselves because there is no one left.......)

Do you remember the warning you got when you entered FP for the first time? It's supposed to be an endgame mode. If you expected it to be a casual-friendly zone, that mistake is on you.

SmokeGuar, on 02 September 2018 - 06:09 AM, said:

Fact remains, IS side has mechs, when used in coordinated fashion, are game breaking experience for other side.

Fact remains, ANY mechs used in coordinated fashion are a game breaking experience against players who believe "coordination" is a type of souffle.

Edited by draiocht, 02 September 2018 - 11:33 PM.
exploit reference

[Y E O N N E]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 02 September 2018 - 11:41 PM.
unconstructive

[Golden Arms]

The OP is just frustrated with a (insert mech) rush. Hate to say it but both sides have this ability. So unless you Nerf ALL mech rushes, let's just deal with the fact that some people have enough friends to casually be well coordinated.

[Horseman]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 September 2018 - 09:31 AM, said:

[Redacted]

Hate LRMs? Only in the sense that I make the other side hate them!




Also, I own enough AWS-8Rs to field a LRM drop deck. Which I routinely do when FP tosses out Polar Highlands

Edited by Horseman, 03 September 2018 - 01:30 AM.
Quote Clean-Up

[The Mysterious Fox]

any kind of IS rushes with super quirked mechs pretty much facerolls and smokes anything in its way, along with the higher tonnage, it gets old pretty fast

[Asym]

Horseman, on 02 September 2018 - 08:25 AM, said:

Teamwork is not an exploit and it's easily mitigated: get on the damn comms and work with your team!

** Large teams or well established players is a wonderful thing ! IF, you have a game population to support it. We don't and that means that they should only be playing similar teams: not new players or new teams. That is a sure fire way to drive people away from the "team portion of MWO". And, it did.

[Redacted]

Do you remember the warning you got when you entered FP for the first time? It's supposed to be an endgame mode. If you expected it to be a casual-friendly zone, that mistake is on you.

** Again, this is true ! But, there is no end-game.... There has never been an End-game. And, since there isn't an end-game, all you have are different maps with teams. Nothing special about that.... Actually, the mistake is on the whole community is you haven't noticed......there are flocks of people clamoring to play and PGI has had to resort to "gimmicks" and events to get people to play.........even if just for events. Just to keep the lights on.

We can agree to disagree.....we all opinions.....the difference is I'm not playing even part time anymore nor are the 80 some team members I correspond with and play on teams with in other games... If PGI wants us back, things have to change......

Edited by draiocht, 02 September 2018 - 11:45 PM.
Quote Clean-Up, exploit reference

[Khalcruth]

VonBruinwald, on 01 September 2018 - 02:14 PM, said:

I love that mentality that solo's only run lurms. Truth is, teams only run 12 mans vs. pugs to pad their stats, [Redacted].

Heaven forbid that if I plan to spend several hours playing with people, I want to do it grouped up with people I actually like to play with. I'm such a bad person.

Edited by draiocht, 02 September 2018 - 11:48 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Tonberry Knife]

Khalcruth, on 02 September 2018 - 11:47 AM, said:

Heaven forbid that if I plan to spend several hours playing with people, I want to do it grouped up with people I actually like to play with. I'm such a bad person.

If the player base was larger I'd say you should be playing against other people who are "grouped up with people they actually like to play with" but it isn't so...

I guess the OP should either group, deal with it, or don't play faction.

[S O L A I S]

I have to agree with the general sentiment here (some of it coming from the folks I play with), that it is team work OP. I play pretty much only CW and Assassin rushes are good tonnage trades usually done by units on the lower end of the skill spectrum. They are far from unstoppable.

Been rushing folks a bunch with Urbies first wave which have been an incredibly successful for us, do you also think the K9 is OP?

Sure it seams pretty unfair and hard to defeat, and it is without a good team on comms working together.

[Bowelhacker]

I miss the Crab rush.

[Horseman]

Asym, on 02 September 2018 - 11:00 AM, said:

Large teams or well established players is a wonderful thing ! IF, you have a game population to support it. We don't and that means that they should only be playing similar teams: not new players or new teams.

You know we have in-game VOIP, right? You don't need Teamspeak, Discord or any other third party tool to coordinate. A bunch of skittles can do it if they're willing to.
That's why what I said still stands: get on the damn comms and work with your team.

Quote

[Redacted]

[Redacted]

Quote

But, there is no end-game.... There has never been an End-game. And, since there isn't an end-game,

FP is the endgame. Just look at the number of people complaining it's too difficult (yourself included!).

Edited by draiocht, 02 September 2018 - 11:52 PM.
Quote Clean-Up, reference

[Vellron2005]

Davegt27, on 02 September 2018 - 08:03 AM, said:

Vallron2005 interesting problem

I am taking a break since the 10 match penalty for switching factions is kind of a pain

question could 12 man Linebackers counter the Assassins?

I also have seen 12 man Piranha rush wreck face that might be a solution

anyways back in the day I would have said get streaks
you will have to come up with new better tactics to fight top teams

remember you have to give them a different look

GLHF

I don't really know if 12 Linebackers could counter 12 assassins.. But it's kind of a "moo point", because in the arena of casual play, that is extremely unlikely to happen..

Also, it doesn't matter if it can or not.. I'm talking about the broken nature of Assassins in general.. The hitreg issues they have, and the cheesiness of the tactic itself. I can be in the most meta laservomit / SRM / Whatever mech and it doesn't matter when I pump an assassin full of fire and it doesn't change a shade, not even registering damage. And then there's 12 of them..

Yesterday for example.. it took 4 heavy mechs, two of which were killed in the attempt, to bring a SINGLE assassin down, all in short range.. and no, they were not LRM boats.. So you literally had 4 direct fire mechs shooting everything they got at the Assassin, and it managed to kill two, from full health..

Please tell me how that's not broken?

Also, to address some of the other posts..

It's hilarious to me how many "pro players" who are mostly the ones doing Assassin rushes (and Linebacker rushes that are equally cheesy) have elected to attack me personally for my love of LRMs, instead of looking at the bigger picture and actually seeing how broken Assassins are..

From all the comments here, many are just straight up LRM hating and personal attacks, simply cose' I called for nerfs to their stat-padding cheese mechs.

TBH, I don't really care for what people that will pervert, abuse and hate everyone who don't agree with them, think.

I created this topic on the hope of the slim chance that PGI will keep their promise of "keeping an eye on the Assassin" and see that it IS really punching above it's weight with broken hitreg, and that [Redacted].

Edited by draiocht, 03 September 2018 - 12:39 AM.
unconstructive, griefing

[The6thMessenger]

Vellron2005, on 02 September 2018 - 11:13 PM, said:

I don't really know if 12 Linebackers could counter 12 assassins.. But it's kind of a "moo point", because in the arena of casual play, that is extremely unlikely to happen..

Funny, here you are [Redacted] pointing specific 12-mech rush that are most likely have a certain level of coordination, but when there's an argument that threatens the integrity of your assertion, suddenly it's unlikely to happen.

So coordinated teams with assassins wrecked witless pugs, that tells us everything we need to know.

Vellron2005, on 02 September 2018 - 11:13 PM, said:

Also, it doesn't matter if it can or not.. I'm talking about the broken nature of Assassins in general.. The hitreg issues they have, and the cheesiness of the tactic itself. I can be in the most meta laservomit / SRM / Whatever mech and it doesn't matter when I pump an assassin full of fire and it doesn't change a shade, not even registering damage.

And then there's 12 of them..

That's exactly the crux of the issue with you. Why even mention the 12 of them? We could just bring 12 of others, and they'd still wash away the opposition with enough coordination. If Assassins in general are just the issue, why even the magic number of 12?

Are you even consistently wrecking people with SRM Assassins? Because i fought with Assassins, and while i assume that the hit-reg is an issue, I am capable of fighting toe to toe with them in brawls due to me bringing a brawler. I have yet to get assassins though. I hate assassins because they are hard to deal with, but that's my own personal shortcoming.

In the end, these are differences of opinions, these are our own shortcoming. And based on your track record, we have a good reason to assume that you are simply being defeated by bringing lurmboats, it's mostly operator error.

Hows about try either one of these?
- Git-Gud
- Bring Anti-Assassins (SRM or SSRM builds)

Vellron2005, on 02 September 2018 - 11:13 PM, said:

for example.. it took 4 heavy mechs, two of which were killed in the attempt, to bring a SINGLE assassin down, all in short range.. and no, they were not LRM boats.. So you literally had 4 direct fire mechs shooting everything they got at the Assassin, and it managed to kill two, from full health..

Please tell me how that's not broken?

Please tell me more information than just a vague description of a single match anyone could just make up, with unknown skill level between belligerents, unknown builds besides "they aren't lurm boats".

I mean, even if they aren't lurm-boats, are they ACs, are they SRM/SSRMs? are they laser-vomits? Do they have good aim or not? Maybe while they were chasing the squirrel, they were being nuked from the rear -- why is that even a surprise?

There's a LOT of variables to process than just pinning this on Assassins.

Vellron2005, on 02 September 2018 - 11:13 PM, said:

It's hilarious to me how many "pro players" who are mostly the ones doing Assassin rushes (and Linebacker rushes that are equally cheesy) have elected to attack me personally for my love of LRMs, instead of looking at the bigger picture and actually seeing how broken Assassins are..

"pro players"? People won't really point out your [Redacted] love for LRMs if there was just proof that you actually used other builds, even specific counters to Assassins, and still assassins won.

Certain builds and playstyles are countered by other certain builds and playstyles, and LRMs are just kind of countered by a LOT, and if your basis of anything to be OP is when your personal perspective is that an easily countered build is easily countered, there's not really a lot to work with.

You really want to prove that assassins are OP? This needs an experiment that isolates variables, actual data derived from said experiments, not [Redacted] over the forums. If this OPness can be explained more by coordinated team and/or terrible players, then it's not the Assassin.

[Redacted]

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 September 2018 - 01:19 AM.
unconstructive

[K O Z A K]

Assassins are simply not as strong anymore. They used to be borderline op, now they're more of an above average brawling medium. It does have some weird hitreg, but also it's just harder to hit than most mechs because of how skinny it is which many players interpret as hitreg issues. If 4 direct fire heavies lost 2 to an assassin they were already really hurt by other mechs or the skill disparity was astronomical.

This is coming from someone who receives asn rushes about 10 times more often than being a part of one. It can be frustrating, but no more so than being rolled over by 12 of anything else

[S O L A I S]

Vellron2005, on 02 September 2018 - 11:13 PM, said:

I don't really know if 12 Linebackers could counter 12 assassins.. But it's kind of a "moo point", because in the arena of casual play, that is extremely unlikely to happen..

Also, it doesn't matter if it can or not.. I'm talking about the broken nature of Assassins in general.. The hitreg issues they have, and the cheesiness of the tactic itself. I can be in the most meta laservomit / SRM / Whatever mech and it doesn't matter when I pump an assassin full of fire and it doesn't change a shade, not even registering damage. And then there's 12 of them..

Yesterday for example.. it took 4 heavy mechs, two of which were killed in the attempt, to bring a SINGLE assassin down, all in short range.. and no, they were not LRM boats.. So you literally had 4 direct fire mechs shooting everything they got at the Assassin, and it managed to kill two, from full health..

Please tell me how that's not broken?

Also, to address some of the other posts..

It's hilarious to me how many "pro players" who are mostly the ones doing Assassin rushes (and Linebacker rushes that are equally cheesy) have elected to attack me personally for my love of LRMs, instead of looking at the bigger picture and actually seeing how broken Assassins are..

From all the comments here, many are just straight up LRM hating and personal attacks, simply cose' I called for nerfs to their stat-padding cheese mechs.

TBH, I don't really care for what people that will pervert, abuse and hate everyone who don't agree with them, think.

I created this topic on the hope of the slim chance that PGI will keep their promise of "keeping an eye on the Assassin" and see that it IS really punching above it's weight with broken hitreg, and that [Redacted].

This is kind of my point though, 'pro' players are not doing this. This is an organised unit tactic that at one point or another I have seen every unit doing it in one form or another. I can see how you might dismiss this as the people doing it not wanting their advantage taken away, but that isn't the case.

Think of the history of this tactic and how many iterations this game has seen of it. BCMC was known for Cicada's and before that in HHoD it was Oxides. Mercstar and their Crab rushes.

You also may not have experienced it, but as far as fast pushing goes, Linebackers are far superior and much, much more effective against pretty much everything.

Now people have attacked you for what you may have been running. I get it. Assassin and Crab rushes are pretty much a hard counter for lurm boats though. It's why if a team doesn't feel like dealing with a long range game, they go to it. Remember it just isn't the anti-lurm boat strat, unless you are a far better team, it counters er snipers as well.

So while you may be frustrated and seems like just another dirty trick units have up their sleeves, the experience of unit on unit play is far different. It's why better units move away from doing it as it is not that powerful against any half decent competition (in the group vs. group setting not meant as an insult). It's why some of the people in here are saying to you that their experience is different and why most of us feel the switch from armor to structure quirks was adequate in addressing the issue.

Edited by draiocht, 03 September 2018 - 01:08 AM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Horseman]

The6thMessenger, on 02 September 2018 - 11:58 PM, said:

So coordinated teams with assassins wrecked witless pugs, that tells us everything we need to know.

Not even that. I was in a pug once on IS side where someone called for Assassins in the lobby and the other people followed the call. We just went and swarmed the clanners, wrecking 17 or 18 mechs before the last of us died.

Quote

Are you even consistently wrecking people with SRM Assassins? Because i fought with Assassins, and while i assume that the hit-reg is an issue, I am capable of fighting toe to toe with them in brawls due to me bringing a brawler. I have yet to get assassins though. I hate assassins because they are hard to deal with, but that's my own personal shortcoming.

ASNs take getting used to - been there.

Quote

Certain builds and playstyles are countered by other certain builds and playstyles, and LRMs are just kind of countered by a LOT, and if your basis of anything to be OP is when your personal perspective is that an easily countered build is easily countered, there's not really a lot to work with.

LRMs are often just kind of countered by the map itself. Hence why I rarely play them outside of Polar Highlands - and even when I do, it's only on a handful of maps.

Vellron2005, on 02 September 2018 - 11:13 PM, said:

Yesterday for example.. it took 4 heavy mechs, two of which were killed in the attempt, to bring a SINGLE assassin down, all in short range.. and no, they were not LRM boats.. So you literally had 4 direct fire mechs shooting everything they got at the Assassin, and it managed to kill two, from full health..

Got a video or screenshots for proof?
Knowing the loadouts would also be useful - if those mechs were ERLL / Gauss / PPC / ERPPC snipers or something in that fashion, it would still be the same "long range mech vs CQC counter" scenario. If they were running XLs, that's kind of on them.

Quote

cose' I called for nerfs to their stat-padding cheese mechs.

You loudly advertise you run stat-padding mechs yourself - that's what LRM boats are: they pad damage - it's just that yours have a glaring vulnerability to CQC.

UnKnownPlayer, on 02 September 2018 - 07:20 AM, said:

The problem is teamwork, nothing else, you CAN remove teams from the mode, i suspect many unit players would just leave that point as they continue to play for the 12 man teamwork aspect of the game. You CAN have 2 seperate queues, that will most like devolve in to experienced solo droppers farming the life out of seals and without a team to work with and voice comms the players in there are unlikely to improve, come in to contact with the units so new recruitment will likely fade away somewhat.
You CAN create a match maker to deal with some of the grouping imbalance but it depends on what the matchmaker measures in order to make it effective as you might find that there are skill islands in certain positions where people with similar ability languish, and again, if they are not exposed to different levels of ability they won't improve.

If all I want is a solo pug v solo pug experience, there's already Quick Play for that. Turning FP into pug v pug would just be detrimental to the mode (remember the pugs that don't know you shoot the generators and not the gate? yyeah, about that...).

Edited by Horseman, 03 September 2018 - 02:30 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Will be bringing 12 Urbies today on a hunt for lerm[Redacted] sitting in the back.

Maybe later today we can witness the "Nerf Urbie Rushes" from the OP.

Edited by draiocht, 03 September 2018 - 08:52 AM.
inappropriate language

[Kamikaze Viking]

Teamwork OP pls nerf.

I remember the days when we'd expect **** like that and had counters for it. These counters also required teamwork. know your positioning and have good coordination and shoot legs!