35 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Christophe Ivanov, on 06 September 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

Remove all heat from all weapons...jam from all weapons and let the pilots skill determine his/hers success on the battlefield. Since it's removed from all, everyone benefits.

Well...I can dream can't I?

Heat is one of the parts of skill in a Mechwarrior game, and it's an important balancing factor for energy weapons vs. missiles vs. ballistics. The whole paradigm would have to be rebuilt to prevent energy from dominating everything in a heatless world (their initially low tonnage and slot requirements is normally offset by requiring "hidden weight" of additional heatsinks).

Also jamming isn't inherently bad, as long as it's not randomly determined.

Edited by FupDup, 06 September 2018 - 10:16 AM.

[Daurock]

FupDup, on 06 September 2018 - 10:08 AM, said:

The CAC/10 is pretty viable, especially if you have 2+ of them. IMO probably better than the IS AC/10 despite not being PPFLD, because of its effectiveness relative to its resource requirements.

Yeah, I've noticed that too. I've even come to enjoy running 4 CAC/10s on something big, like the Kodiak. The supposed "Ghost heat" slap you're supposed to take is a wet noodle. (The penalty for firing 4 of them is a laughably low 1 heat, last i checked) If you can aim, and aren't primarily shooting at fast movers, it is handier than running Quad LBX.

Edited by Daurock, 06 September 2018 - 10:50 AM.

[Viking Yelling]

There's nothing wrong with UAC's other than that Clan AC's could use more favor.

[Vyx]

Part of the reason I advocate for my original suggestion is because (I thought) it addressed the two issues at hand:

1) the enormous delay before firing again after a jam is un-fun and a foolish trait for a weapon designed for war;
2) the niche that the UAC seeks to fill is strong burst damage, with the regular AC filling the niche of reliable lower DPS

A regular cAC5 with 100 rounds of ammo can potentially deal 250 damage (2 shot burst, 50 potential bursts, 5 total damage per burst). If all shots land on target, it will.

The proposed UAC with the ammo-expending, jam-clearing mechanic fixes the enormous re-fire delay problem (less frustration), but at the cost of lessened overall damage potential -- every time you clear a jam, that's rounds that never hit a target. Thus, a proposed cUAC5 with 100 rounds of ammo will always do less than 250 damage total. If the weapon jams 15% of the time, and all remaining rounds land on target, you will do 210 (2 shot burst, 42 potential bursts, [8 jams], 5 total damage per burst).

Boating UACs will, under this proposed scenario, have slightly more uptime in a fight, but quite a lot of damage potential will end up "on the floor" as wasted ammo.

Edited by Vyx, 06 September 2018 - 11:17 AM.

[Bloodwitch]

You should treat a UAC the same as you would treat a regular AC. It is not a AC with double DPS.
Double tapping is an option which causes jams, if you use it offensively first thing first in an engagment, you should keept in mind to retreat.
I've seen it one to many times that someone is charging while doubletapping.
Use doubletap as a last resort option, or if you can safely retreat.

There is nothing wrong with UACs, it's just that people using them totally wrong despite knowing how the cannons act.
If anything, regular clan ACs need a buff.

Edited by Kunato Developments, 06 September 2018 - 12:52 PM.

[Khobai]

Kunato Developments, on 06 September 2018 - 12:51 PM, said:

You should treat a UAC the same as you would treat a regular AC. It is not a AC with double DPS.

I feel the problem is more that theres no reason to use ACs over UACs.

regular ACs should be better at poking/sniping and theyre not because of how UACs work.

In order for both autocannon types to be viable: ACs need better range/velocity and UACs need their frontloaded burst dps reduced in favor of more consistent dps (i.e. reduce the jam chance but also increase the cooldown)

then theres a reason to use both types of ACs. ACs for poking/sniping and UACs for dps and facetanking/pushing

Edited by Khobai, 06 September 2018 - 04:07 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 06 September 2018 - 04:05 PM, said:

I feel the problem is more that theres no reason to use ACs over UACs.

Yet I run AC5 / AC2 mechs a hell of a lot and do perfectly fine with them. Infact I will take a AC mech if I'm after sustained DPS any day over UAC - where I take UAC if I wanna burst. Given ACs are cooler than UACs... Something you don't mention at all.

The issue is many people don't understand the diference and thus can't play them the way they need to be played to be effective.

Granted ACs and UACs overall are not in the best place - they are all perfectly useable. Just need to be boated, but then that is a result of Skill Maze all the educated players said would happen.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 06 September 2018 - 06:55 PM, said:

Yet I run AC5 / AC2 mechs a hell of a lot and do perfectly fine with them. Infact I will take a AC mech if I'm after sustained DPS any day over UAC - where I take UAC if I wanna burst.

Thats true I suppose. AC5s and AC2s are usable.

But in general ACs suffer compared to UACs. The AC10/20 are pretty bad compared to the ultra versions. And on the clan side the CACs are all worse than the CUACs. Granted theyre placeholder weapons but if theyre going to stay in the game they should at least have a purpose.

I would still like to see better defined roles for the AC vs UAC. As well as a lower jam rate on the UACs.

justcallme A S H, on 06 September 2018 - 06:55 PM, said:

Given ACs are cooler than UACs...

sure. an AC5 is 1.4 heat and a UAC5 is 1.66 heat. but its only .26 heat.

I didnt mention it because I didnt consider the heat difference to be considerable enough to mention.

I suppose if you run like five of them, like on say an annihilator, then the heat difference might add up. But unless youre really spamming them that small of a difference in heat wont matter. that is one specific instance where the AC5 is good, but yeah having to boat them for them to be good is certainly a problem.

Edited by Khobai, 06 September 2018 - 08:28 PM.

[FupDup]

I prefer the CAC/10 over the CUAC/10. With just your base 10 DHS, you're completely heat neutral. And of course you never have to worry about constant jams.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 06 September 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

I prefer the CAC/10 over the CUAC/10. With just your base 10 DHS, you're completely heat neutral. And of course you never have to worry about constant jams.

the problem with CACs is that they weigh just as much as CUACs and actually take up more crit slots. You also lose substantial dps potential by not being able to double tap. And the only advantage you get is less heat?

Thats not good enough for me. I feel like CACs should have better range and velocity. And probably fire one less burst. Thats would balance them out better against the higher DPS of the CUACs.

Of course I also think all UACs need to jam less and have longer cooldowns to compensate for the lower jam rate. The jam rate is obnoxiously high and makes those weapons way too inconsistent. There is nothing worse than trying to start a push against the enemy and have your **** jam up randomly.

Edited by Khobai, 06 September 2018 - 08:29 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 06 September 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

the problem with CACs for me is that they weigh just as much as CUACs and actually take up more crit slots. You also lose substantial dps potential by not being able to double tap. And the only advantage you get is less heat?

Thats not good enough for me. I feel like CACs should have better range and velocity. And probably fire one less burst.

Of course I also think all UACs need to jam less and have a longer cooldown. The jam rate is obnoxiously high.

That substantial DPS potential goes out the window when you jam.

Also the CAC/2 and 5 already have more range.

Edited by FupDup, 06 September 2018 - 08:27 PM.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 06 September 2018 - 08:25 PM, said:

That substantial DPS potential goes out the window when you jam.

like I said uacs should jam less. they need to be more consistent dps weapons.

FupDup, on 06 September 2018 - 08:25 PM, said:

Also the CAC/2 and 5 already have more range.

Yeah thats good. thats how it should be. but they still take up more crit slots than CUACs

I would like to see the CAC5 fire 1 less burst.

and the CAC2 needs something else since its burst count cant be reduced anymore.

[R79TCom1 Night Lanner]

I just want my Clan UACs to work like the IS UACs. If I can't get that can I get Clan non-ultra autocannons to act like IS non-ultra autocannons?

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 06 September 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

and the CAC2 needs something else since its burst count cant be reduced anymore.

Yes it can be. It will shoot a burst of zero, causing the game to implode.

[Khobai]

id be okay with the game imploding

[Bloodwitch]

I agree that the "normal" clan ACs should get a buff to make them more appealing.
The minor buffs on heat and range don't offset the extra crit-slot.
I don't agree on the buff for clan UACs however, they function the same as regular ACs with a minor debuff on range and heat, a very very minor debuff considering the burst feature and saved critslot.

I don't play other "shooter", just not appealing for for. I do play MMOs however and it's burst OR DPS. A build shouldn't have both options. Either you have a burst build or you have a dps build.
Clan UACs currently have both with little downsides. If used "correctly" you have regular ACs with saved critspace AND burst with double DPS with no downsides if used with proper positioning (having planned ahead and being able to savely retreat into cover / between friendlies).
That's why UACs are like 95% of used Clan ACs and virtually everyone who's using Ultras is doubletapping all the time, every time. Again, Utras are not ACs with double DPS and people should get that in their heads.

As long as both, regulars and ultras, occupying the same niche the ultras will win over the regulars.

On a sidenote, this would also help some variants which are able to equip bigger Acs like the direwolf or the KDK-3.

I honestly wouldn't mind if ACs would get buffed in velocity, heat, or even shellcount reduction.

When PGI reduced the Shellcount for Clan ACs, i think they missed a great chance to set regulars and ultras appart. I'd left the old shellcount for Utras as it was.

Regular ACs should have superior stats over Ultras. And Ultras in burst mode should have superior stats over regular ACs (with the risk of jamming).

Edited by Kunato Developments, 07 September 2018 - 06:09 AM.