157 replies to this topic

[Kaeb Odellas]

Vellron2005, on 10 September 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

LOL, how about.. NO.

30 point alpha to a single component is OP.. there's good reason why it has ghost heat.. PPC+Gauss meta is powerful enough.

PPC and Gauss have linked ghost heat now. PPC+Gauss has been dead for a while.

[The6thMessenger]

Mystere, on 11 September 2018 - 06:50 AM, said:

I say it again: screw the tech imbalance. The BattleTech way is "quality vs. quantity".

Remember, during the 10C vs. 12IS tests, the Clans got consistently wiped.

I call that a beginning.

However, some probably see it as "an inconvenient truth".

But all of the above are another matter.

No tech balancing? Well then, forget getting 3x CERPPC.

The problem with 10x Clans vs 12x IS is that it's only limited on Faction Play, on Quick play where IS and Clans could be dropped together, you can't just do that.

Khobai, on 11 September 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

because unlike you I actually realize that increasing IS PPC ghost heat to x3 is pointless if you dont also buff ISDHS so they can actually sustain firing 3 PPCs at a time. ISDHS suck so bad now they cant even sustain firing 2 ERPPCs...

the whole reason PPCs are bad on the IS side is because they cant deal with the heat. so what good is increasing the heat going to do if you dont also increase the dissipation? I mean really.

Lol, now it's 30 PPFLD, then it's pointless? Your selective attention is hilarious. So that's enough reason to be incapable of seeing everything else?

The point of 3x PPC of the three categories is for them to be competitive to the alternative, to deal even more damage -- doing 60 damage in two salvo instead of three would mean that it's easier to do because all you have to do is to land two hits than three, you maximized damage, minimized time and brain calculating power.

iERPPC needs heat buff and i have been advocating for it, but in the end it's not really supposed to sustain considering it's long range that it has, it's already doing 30 PPFLD at a god damn long range, it's not really something that should be capable of spamming. Battlemaster could get 6 ERLL poking from afar with great impunity, now imagine that being the case with 30 PPFLD than a beam. With DHS improvement, imagine this on Alpine Peaks:KAIJU 6x ERPPC.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to buff IS DHS too, but this is irrelevant to the fact that Clan CERPPC is still undeserving of 3x GH because it already does so much, likewise we aren't punishing it with nerf, were simply leaving it out.

Khobai, on 11 September 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

you have no coherent argument. all you have is your obvious IS bias.

anyways im done. I cant argue with people that cant stick to one position.

No, that's not it.

Clans only have the 6-ton CERPPC that's filling the role for what otherwise would have been SNPPC, PPC, ERPPC, and HPPC. While CERPPC poptarts and long-range snipers is a thing, it's also used for other roles where the normal HPPC and SNPPC would be. While IS have SNPPC to mix with LB20X, Clans only have the CERPPC to do it.

Toha Heavy Industries, on 11 September 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

There is no coherent argument because you are talking with different people with different experiences, opinions and takes on the matter.

This Khobai, you can't juggle between perspectives, it's your shortcoming.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 September 2018 - 03:31 PM.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 11 September 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

The problem with 10x Clans vs 12x IS is that it's only limited on Faction Play, on Quick play where IS and Clans could be dropped together, you can't just do that.

And I said this too long ago: solo QP should be forced Clan vs. Clan, IS vs. IS, or Clan vs. IS drops based on player availability.

As for group QP, that could still be anything-goes because it should be assumed people dropping there know what they are doing.

[The6thMessenger]

Mystere, on 11 September 2018 - 02:47 PM, said:

And I said this too long ago: solo QP should be forced Clan vs. Clan, IS vs. IS, or Clan vs. IS drops based on player availability.

As for group QP, that could still be anything-goes because it should be assumed people dropping there know what they are doing.

Well, that's just making an even more mess of things. If i wanted to roleplay Clan vs IS, i'd go for Faction Play, not quickplay.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 11 September 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

Well, that's just making an even more mess of things. If i wanted to roleplay Clan vs IS, i'd go for Faction Play, not quickplay.

What mess? It's actually a simple solution that does not add much to wait times.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 11 September 2018 - 02:53 PM, said:

What mess? It's actually a simple solution that does not add much to wait times.

How is it simple? How do you quantify an advantage in numbers/angles to advantage in firepower/durability? Or is this specifically in the context of QP where you are essentially creating 2x more buckets.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 September 2018 - 03:00 PM.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 September 2018 - 02:59 PM, said:

How is it simple?

I meant the simple sorting.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 September 2018 - 02:59 PM, said:

How do you quantify an advantage in numbers/angles to advantage in firepower/durability?

That's where "Endless War" comes in -- people who die get replaced by others in the queue.

(*) hook, line, and sinker

Edited by Mystere, 11 September 2018 - 03:04 PM.

[SFC174]

I have no issue with increasing the GH limit for PPCs across the board. Allowing any mech to fire 3 at once (or 2 PPC/1 Gauss, or vice versa) is not game breaking, and would increase the number of PPCs we see in matches (which are woefully low right now outside the rare WHK, SMN or H-PPC IS mech like the Thanatos).

At first I thought I'd exclude the HPPC from the increase, but you know what, go ahead. If someone can cram 3 HPPCs and enough heatsinks into an assault, let them have the 45 PPFLD. I suspect you'd get but one alpha with a really long cooldown.

Without changes to heat or dissipation, going to 3 PPCs at once really only increases the options a player has to deliver that critical blow when the opportunity presents itself. But it might also help broaden the range of playstyles we see these days, which seem to mainly be H-Gauss, ballistic boat, laser boat and LRM boat with the occasional SRM brawler sneaking in.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 11 September 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

That's where "Endless War" comes in -- people who die get replaced by others in the queue.

That's a non-answer, respawning (whether it be a different player or the same) doesn't magically make balance issues go away.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 11 September 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to buff IS DHS too, but this is irrelevant to the fact that Clan CERPPC is still undeserving of 3x GH because it already does so much, likewise we aren't punishing it with nerf, were simply leaving it out.
…
Clans only have the 6-ton CERPPC that's filling the role for what otherwise would have been SNPPC, PPC, ERPPC, and HPPC. While CERPPC poptarts and long-range snipers is a thing, it's also used for other roles where the normal HPPC and SNPPC would be. While IS have SNPPC to mix with LB20X, Clans only have the CERPPC to do it.

Here's the rub. The CERPPC is what is called the "jack of all trades, master of none". It may have the versatility, but it suffers in one form or another -- sometimes massively -- in comparison to each of the IS options. Sans quirks, it probably is all around superior only to the IS ERPPC.

So, if GH limit was only increased for the IS PPC weapons and the CERPPC is left as is, that will just make Clan laser vomit even more attractive than it already is and just leaves the CERPPC in the dust.

And no, nerfing Clan laser vomit to make the CERPPC "more attractive" is not a solution. That's like saying one should put a drop of acid on the left eye because the right one is half blind.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 September 2018 - 03:04 PM, said:

That's a non-answer, respawning (whether it be a different player or the same) doesn't magically make balance issues go away.

It does not make it go away; it just makes it largely irrelevant given a well designed game mode.

Of course, if all you have is a senseless TDM battle ...

Edited by Mystere, 11 September 2018 - 11:11 PM.

[Khobai]

The6thMessenger, on 11 September 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

Clan CERPPC is still undeserving of 3x GH because it already does so much

like what? what does it does it do thats so much? can you even name one thing the CERPPC does better than the ERPPC than isnt "splash damage"? lmao. lol "so much"... it literally does one thing better and then is worse in EVERY other way. And the one thing it does better isnt even reliable or all that great.

because its got worse heat per PPFLD, its got a longer cooldown, its got way worse velocity, its got worse crit health, oh and way worse quirks, and the fact it weighs 1 ton less is negated by the higher heat and the fact you have to take a targeting computer to increase its velocity (otherwise its not effective at long range)

and if you make ISERPPCs x3 ghost heat without also making CERPPC x3 ghost heat that would be one more advantage, in the long list of advantages, the ISERPPC already has over the CERPPC.

The6thMessenger, on 11 September 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

While CERPPC poptarts and long-range snipers is a thing,

x3 ghost heat on CERPPC would not make poptarting worse though. no clan mech is capable of doing x3 CERPPC + jumpjets well enough that its actually scary... that loadout doesnt fit on the summoner. the night gyr is a joke now. that argument was already dispelled.

Mystere, on 11 September 2018 - 11:09 PM, said:

So, if GH limit was only increased for the IS PPC weapons and the CERPPC is left as is, that will just make Clan laser vomit even more attractive than it already is and just leaves the CERPPC in the dust.

Exactly.

Its not just IS vs clan balancing. CERPPCs need to be internally balanced with other clan weapons too.

x3 ghost heat on CERPPC would make them much better balanced vs laser vomit.

CERPPC is at best a mediocre weapon in the clan lineup right now. The whole argument that it shouldnt be buffed is absurd. Of course it should be.

Edited by Khobai, 12 September 2018 - 12:57 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Mystere, on 11 September 2018 - 11:09 PM, said:

Here's the rub. The CERPPC is what is called the "jack of all trades, master of none". It may have the versatility, but it suffers in one form or another -- sometimes massively -- in comparison to each of the IS options. Sans quirks, it probably is all around superior only to the IS ERPPC.

And? Here's some truth bomb on you, while CERPPC on it's own might be lack-luster just as standard PPC because it's jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, the remaining advantages of the entire clan techbase adequately covers for that.

For example. It's too hot? Well lighter and smaller tech means more DHS, solved. Too slow? TC7 with it's lighter tech solves the problem.

And before you go with "just buff IS DHS", and while I would agree, it still does not do the CERPPC justice for it's 3x GH. You are still looking at a set of tech that could comfortably enmasse CERPPCs with less risk than IS, and now you still have 15 spread damage for it. And while you people are quick to discount it so conveniently because it's easier on your narrative, the cold hard truth is that it piles up.

Mystere, on 11 September 2018 - 11:09 PM, said:

So, if GH limit was only increased for the IS PPC weapons and the CERPPC is left as is, that will just make Clan laser vomit even more attractive than it already is and just leaves the CERPPC in the dust.

Why? I mean Clan Laser Vomit already works, where is this connection coming from?

Mystere, on 11 September 2018 - 11:09 PM, said:

And no, nerfing Clan laser vomit to make the CERPPC "more attractive" is not a solution. That's like saying one should put a drop of acid on the left eye because the right one is half blind.

Technically, it is, the problem is just people won't like it.

And with your analogy, do we really need to tell you the immense difference between permanently damaging your eye and simply changing an XML file? No, the two aren't the same.

Reduce Clan ERPPC damage to 12, and heat to 11, then we'll talk about that 3x CERPPC. Otherwise, this is just you wanting to have your own cake and eat it too.

Khobai, on 12 September 2018 - 12:33 AM, said:

like what? what does it does it do thats so much? can you even name one thing the CERPPC does better than the ERPPC than isnt "splash damage"? lmao. lol "so much"... it literally does one thing better and then is worse in EVERY other way. And the one thing it does better isnt even reliable or all that great.

CERPPC is 6 tons. I win.

Khobai, on 12 September 2018 - 12:33 AM, said:

because its got worse heat per PPFLD, its got a longer cooldown, its got way worse velocity, its got worse crit health, oh and way worse quirks, and the fact it weighs 1 ton less is negated by the higher heat and the fact you have to take a targeting computer to increase its velocity (otherwise its not effective at long range)

Lol, again with muh-ppfld, it's so convenient to ignore the fact that CERPPC is doing 15 damage for 6 tons just because 5 is plash damage despite piling up eventually, to ignore the fact that Clans are capable of massing so much DHS anyways that it being hot isn't exactly that much of a concern, that the velocity despite lower than iERPPC, is still usable at diverse ranges. Do you know why IS have those quirks? Because without them, they suck.

No, again they don't have to go CERPPC = iERPPC, because the two have different niches to fulfill on their own techbase. Like how CERPPC is jack-of-all-trades because it's the only PPC for the Clans, while IS has this plethora of others that allows them to specialize. Get it to your god damn head.

Khobai, on 12 September 2018 - 12:33 AM, said:

and if you make ISERPPCs x3 ghost heat without also making CERPPC x3 ghost heat that would be one more advantage, in the long list of advantages, the ISERPPC already has over the CERPPC.

Well, considering that the entire Clan Techbase as a whole as an even longer list of advantages that piles up, it's just too damn disingenuous to just evaluate it weapon to weapon.

Khobai, on 12 September 2018 - 12:33 AM, said:

x3 ghost heat on CERPPC would not make poptarting worse though. no clan mech is capable of doing x3 CERPPC + jumpjets well enough that its actually scary... that loadout doesnt fit on the summoner. the night gyr is a joke now. that argument was already dispelled.

You know what would fix Night Gyr? return of 2x Gauss + PPC. Well, yes this is possible by increasing CERPPC GH to 3x, that being said the CERPPC needs nerfs if it does. Reduce CERPPC damage to 12, heat to 11, then we'll talk.

Khobai, on 12 September 2018 - 12:33 AM, said:

Exactly.

Its not just IS vs clan balancing. CERPPCs need to be internally balanced with other clan weapons too.

The problem is that, when you just balance by weapons, then you disbalance by faction. This is what your narrow mind is missing.

Again, you want your 3x CERPPC, fix techbase first, or nerf CERPPC to 12 damage and 11 heat. Then we'll talk.

Khobai, on 12 September 2018 - 12:33 AM, said:

x3 ghost heat on CERPPC would make them much better balanced vs laser vomit.

Meanwhile the IS still lags behind.

Khobai, on 12 September 2018 - 12:33 AM, said:

CERPPC is at best a mediocre weapon in the clan lineup right now. The whole argument that it shouldnt be buffed is absurd. Of course it should be.

No, it's not. Your entire argument is simply confirmatory bias where you're dismissing our points in favor of yours, and that is absurd, you might as well argue "Because i want to". Your incapability to look at the bigger picture and other's perspective is always the wall you're hitting.

Meanwhile, here's a compromise. Nerf Clan ERPPC to 12 damage (splash already accounted for), adjust heat to 11, then we'll talk about that 3x ERPPC.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 12 September 2018 - 02:13 AM.

[vonJerg]

The6thMessenger, on 12 September 2018 - 01:59 AM, said:

Meanwhile, here's a compromise. Nerf Clan ERPPC to 12 damage (splash already accounted for), adjust heat to 11, then we'll talk about that 3x ERPPC.

Hmmm, you do realize that that would make 3 x cERPPC, or 2x CerPPCs + C-Gauss, or CerPPC + 2x C-Gauss get to 46,86 ghost heat, making it way colder then 2 x C-hLL + 4 x CerMeds (57,2 heat)?

[The6thMessenger]

vonJerg, on 12 September 2018 - 03:09 AM, said:

Hmmm, you do realize that that would make 3 x cERPPC, or 2x CerPPCs + C-Gauss, or CerPPC + 2x C-Gauss get to 46,86 ghost heat, making it way colder then 2 x C-hLL + 4 x CerMeds (57,2 heat)?

Are you sure we're on the same page? We're discussing about allowing PPC, and then the CERPPC shooting 3 at once WITHOUT incurring heat penalty.

If we introduced 12 damage and 11 heat, for INCREASING GH, that means 3x CERPPC does 36 damage for 33 heat. If we allow Gauss-PPC back to 3, then we can assume either 39 damage for 23 heat with 2x PPC gauss, or 14 heat for 2x Gauss + PPC.

And by your example, 2x HLL + 4x ERML does 36 + 28 (64) damage for 57.2 heat, which is effectively 1.1188 Heat/Damage, while the static 46.86 ghost heat, for basically 12 + 12 + 12 (36) damage to 15 + 15 + 12 (142) damage, does 0.7682 to 0.8963 Damage/Heat, which is waaay inefficient in terms of heat too. Supposed that we retained damage, of basically 45 flat, that is still 0.9603 damage/heat.

What is the point of your comment? Do you imply that by allowing 45 front-loaded damage back, it's competitive to the otherwise 64 laser vomit? Because honestly, it's not that the ppc or gauss is doing too low of damage, rather the lasers are just doing too high.

[vonJerg]

I thought that you were advocating to ONLY adjust C-erPPC damage and heat, and leave the current ghost limit at 2.

[LowSubmarino]

aint gonna happen.

Pgi and also - more importantly - majority of community does not want potent long range weapons because they get massacred by it.

Which is why ppc cooldown and heat have been nerfed a kazillion times.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 12 September 2018 - 01:59 AM, said:

Technically, it is, the problem is just people won't like it.

And with your analogy, do we really need to tell you the immense difference between permanently damaging your eye and simply changing an XML file? No, the two aren't the same.

The right eye is already permanently damaged (i.e. half-blind). And the solution some people are proposing on the forums, nerfing laser vomit and thus making CERPPC more attractive as a side effect, is like intentionally damaging the left eye. The analogy holds.

The6thMessenger, on 12 September 2018 - 01:59 AM, said:

Reduce Clan ERPPC damage to 12, and heat to 11, then we'll talk about that 3x CERPPC. Otherwise, this is just you wanting to have your own cake and eat it too.

I have so-called "cakes" on both sides. <smh>

Edited by Mystere, 12 September 2018 - 06:38 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 11 September 2018 - 11:09 PM, said:

It does not make it go away; it just makes it largely irrelevant given a well designed game mode.

How does it make it irrelevant? If a side seems stronger than the other, the population will either stop playing your game (or complain loudly until they inevitably stop), or just switch sides until the population that plays the worse tech base dwindles to almost nothing. If you don't have any balancing mechanism then you have failed, there is a difference between asym balance and just flat out unbalanced and one tends to chase players away.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 September 2018 - 07:44 AM.

[ZippySpeedMonkey]

No.

[The6thMessenger]

Mystere, on 12 September 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:

The right eye is already permanently damaged (i.e. half-blind). And the solution some people are proposing on the forums, nerfing laser vomit and thus making CERPPC more attractive as a side effect, is like intentionally damaging the left eye. The analogy holds.

No it's not, because XML changes can be rolled back, you aren't permanently damaging anything. A better analogy would be a flashlight of different intensities, as opposed of brightening the other, you simply lower the brightness of the offending one.

But hey, since we're at irrelevant analogies trying to instill stigma, here's the analogy for adding 3x CERPPC: it's like giving charity for the poor and to the rich at the same time, it's like Cartman went to Stan's Birthday party but gets birthday presents too despite being Stan's birthday.

Mystere, on 12 September 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:

I have so-called "cakes" on both sides. <smh>

Sure, that's why we compromise. Again, nerf CERPPC to 12 damage and then heat to 11, better yet 10 damage and 9.5 heat, then well talk. I'd really like that Gauss-PPC back as counter to Laser Vomit, but the problem is that, we just can't buff Clan willy nilly -- yes, buffing CERPPC just to be consistent with IS is willy-nilly.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 12 September 2018 - 04:50 PM.