60 replies to this topic

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Acersecomic, on 17 September 2018 - 04:13 AM, said:

Do you see me mentioning Polar among the corridor maps? No, that map is reseved for hell, Satan's personal slave, the LRM spam and is waaaaaaaaaay too open. That map, shrinked by say..... 40% and with a lot more of those ice/rock trenches would actually be a lot of fun.



And therein lies another problem with the map design. PGI, unintentionaly since they can't even design maps properly, make maps in which if you want a different approach, forces players to change up things and be way more organised. In random, public quickplay matches. Yeah... You can't make people do what they don't want to do. And if you step out of that norm, you're dead.
So instead of forcing ideas, how about maps designed in a way that allow such actions without going out of your way to break builds and make people feel like they're smart.

When News not understand thats running with a slow assault in focus fire and play turret and wait of Lights Wolfpack away from Team is Instantdeath ...not the Maps the problem...and when Players not will organized playing ..why they plays a PvP? and Polar and LRMs ...the own Team have no LRMS ???? and can deal with it ? when no Player spotted or set UAVs and all playing "Chickenrun" or Playing without Tactical awarness not the LRMS thats Problem...ist a problem with Skill, Tactical and Situation Awarness , only running blind in a Push is stupid like Nascar racings

Here ...This Guy run alone with his Super nova of open Field , stands still and firing all 30 Seconds useless his LRMs ...never use his Large lasers ...Easy Kill..like the most in this Match thats try to run away without backfire or only hit the Terrain and all Plays like a Kindergarten

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 17 September 2018 - 10:54 AM.

[Viking Yelling]

Yeah, but the maps aren't even bad, so ....

[Acersecomic]

Phaex42, on 17 September 2018 - 10:36 AM, said:

Alpine peaks would be half as bad as it is if there weren't so many invisible walls. It's utterly infuriating to fire at enemies you'd hit most other maps and see your shots hit the almighty performance crutch forcefield. The height differentials are also problematic if you happen to be playing a mech with torso mounted weapons and low pitch.

Oh, this is the problem on all the maps. Everything has an extra meter of hitbox.

[MechaBattler]

I remember them saying long ago that once they built up enough art assets they would have an easier time creating maps. And yet now the act like creating a map is too much work. You already have several biome sets of assets. And no one is going to care if you use reuse some builds and rocks from existing maps. Come on PGI. Maps are the closet thing to 'real content' that we get. You can't ignore it. It's all we have!

[Moldur]

You guys remember how Frozen City was one of the most popular maps before it got "improved"? Somebody is going to tell me that popular =/= better, and to that I say neither does bigger. Also, player judgement is subjective, and what they like the most (e.g. what is popular) is pretty much the best metric we've got, so I fail to see how making a map for less players to enjoy is better, hmmm. Maybe my brain is not big enough to consume such an incredibly big think.

You guys want a reworked Mining collective? We can expand it into the surrounding emptiness. Hey, it's bigger and will support more styles of play, right??? We'll obviously have to throw the current one out, nobody would want to play it after the new and improved version is here.

[Viking Yelling]

Moldur, on 17 September 2018 - 01:58 PM, said:

You guys remember how Frozen City was one of the most popular maps before it got "improved"? Somebody is going to tell me that popular =/= better, and to that I say neither does bigger. Also, player judgement is subjective, and what they like the most (e.g. what is popular) is pretty much the best metric we've got, so I fail to see how making a map for less players to enjoy is better, hmmm. Maybe my brain is not big enough to consume such an incredibly big think.

You guys want a reworked Mining collective? We can expand it into the surrounding emptiness. Hey, it's bigger and will support more styles of play, right??? We'll obviously have to throw the current one out, nobody would want to play it after the new and improved version is here.

I agree. Players seem to currently like a lot of the small to medium maps. I personally think maps could be bigger, but that doesn't seems to result in better game play OR better use of the map. Games on these medium maps ten to be a lot of Nascar and Deathball tactics, because that's all you really need to do. But look at most of the popular medium maps; like Canyon, HPG, Mining Collective; they're all designed centrally for that exact game play. Take a Medium Map like Terratherma there is almost never any nascaring; just peaking because it's hot and the terrain doesnt advantage Hot Nascar deathballs.

My point is, even the popular maps don't mean they are goot maps. I think a lot of players prefer and vote a lot of the Nascar maps, but those are also maps that use a few specific skill sets.

Grim Plexus is my most played map and it's actually probably one of the better map designs in the game. Good use of cover and buildings, Terrain advantages and differences, lines of fire, and meaningful terrain.

But compare that with Polar Highlands. Highlands does have terrain advantages and differences; like the snow drift hills and having players use them for cover for movement and combat. The problem Highlands face is that it has no distinction and a severe lack of buildings or cover.

Now to contrast that with Solaris City. All buildings. You cant even use the buildings as cover because they mostly just define the corridors of which the map consists. Most of the more open areas are just areas asking for a flanking maneuver which is total crap for strategy. Most of the combat takes place against one team peaking a corner with no vertical advantage at all, and even in sections that have lower building cover, more often than not, it simply clutters the area making it hard to actually maneuver almost any mech without Jump Jets. This would be okay if Jump jets weren't mostly an after thought to anything with good brawl capability, because they're essentially non existent on anything heavier than 65 tons, and only squirrel mechs at 45 tons and below actually use them properly.

[El Bandito]

Anjian, on 17 September 2018 - 01:54 AM, said:

That's because they were designed to be pretty first and foremost, and no one appears to have a clue about level design.

I think we have different standards on pretty. Most of MWO's maps are not pretty. Not at all. And level designs suck on a lot of them, especially on Invasion maps.

Moldur, on 17 September 2018 - 01:58 PM, said:

You guys remember how Frozen City was one of the most popular maps before it got "improved"? Somebody is going to tell me that popular =/= better, and to that I say neither does bigger. Also, player judgement is subjective, and what they like the most (e.g. what is popular) is pretty much the best metric we've got, so I fail to see how making a map for less players to enjoy is better, hmmm. Maybe my brain is not big enough to consume such an incredibly big think.

Old Frozen City was perfect for 8v8. When 12v12 rolled in, the map was simply not suitable, and had to change.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

to many different Players in MWO ..the Tactical Awarness Guys thats will Big Maps , the Brawl only thats love to fight in a Kitchen and hate it to have 1 Minute no Action and loves Fastdeaths with Respawn and High Killcounts ...the Guys thats have no Problems with no map while drive no special Boats and have for all Ranges a Answer, the Special only Missle Boat Drivers thats only Loves open Hills and Teams thats gives Locks.

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 18 September 2018 - 02:17 AM.

[El Bandito]

More players per team = even more lopsided matchmaking. I don't wanna carry T5ers who can't tell the difference between left and right.

[Shifty McSwift]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 17 September 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

to many different Palyers in MWO ..the Tactical Awarness Guys thats will Big Maps , the Brawl only thats love to fight in a Kitchen and hate it to have 1 Minute no Action and loves Fastdeaths with Respawn and High Killcounts ...the Guys thats have no Problems with no map while drive no special Boats and have for all Ranges a Answer, the Special only Missle Boat Drivers thats only Loves open Hills and Teams thats gives Locks.

Yes in many games you will find 8 different tactics games going on at once, which would be fine if at all coordinated which it usually isn't.

For example I fully recognise that the builds I currently prefer are short ranged brawlers, and that they have a limited utility etc, but I find it to be not only the most fun, but the most reliable in damage exchange and effect, it is very rare that I will die before getting into range, like afk deaths are more common.

What I have found though is the most popular attitude/tactic by far is hill/corner humping and while it is a viable tactic for many builds and situations, the degree to which some just endlessly and mindlessly tunnel vision peep until they get shot in the back (and then in many cases will just let themself be cored, or try to outrun the damage without even turning to face etc), and it is quite frustrating to see in many ways, not just as one who prefers brawling, but in how it turns potential combat into hide and peep alone fests.

[Anjian]

El Bandito, on 17 September 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

More players per team = even more lopsided matchmaking. I don't wanna carry T5ers who can't tell the difference between left and right.

That is because of low population. In a high population game, that won't be the case.

[El Bandito]

Anjian, on 17 September 2018 - 08:42 PM, said:

That is because of low population. In a high population game, that won't be the case.

Hence it is far better to cope with reality and make QP 8v8.

[Anjian]

Shifty McSwift, on 17 September 2018 - 08:34 PM, said:

Yes in many games you will find 8 different tactics games going on at once, which would be fine if at all coordinated which it usually isn't.

In an ideal map which supports all roles in its very design, you have an overall match situation calling on multiple roles --- support, sniper, flanker, runner or skirmisher, brawler --- players using the map experience should know where in the map they should go to fulfill their roles. Snipers would find their sniping spots, brawlers would use cover to reach areas and block corridors.

There is no mobbing, because you don't have a large group of General Purpose Grunt.

But this map and game situation doesn't exist here.

El Bandito, on 17 September 2018 - 08:44 PM, said:

Hence it is far better to cope with reality and make QP 8v8.

Its not going to help much and doesn't really solve the core issue at all, which is just bad level design + bad game mode design.

Edited by Anjian, 17 September 2018 - 08:50 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Anjian, on 17 September 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

In an ideal map which supports all roles in its very design, you have an overall match situation calling on multiple roles --- support, sniper, flanker, runner or skirmisher, brawler --- players using the map experience should know where in the map they should go to fulfill their roles. Snipers would find their sniping spots, brawlers would use cover to reach areas and block corridors.

There is no mobbing, because you don't have a large group of General Purpose Grunt.

But this map and game situation doesn't exist here.

Its not going to help much and doesn't really solve the core issue at all, which is just bad level design + bad game mode design.

Again, I blame this less on the maps and modes (a few are pretty terrible yes agreed) and more on the structure of the grouping/lobbying system, there is often little to no pregame coordination (obviously none in solo QP), just a rush to hurry up and get into a game with a bunch of randoms you can yell at and blame for being randoms doing random things. With so many players in each game, that is a serious issue, and why things devolve into a circus clownshow so often.

[Grus]

Go play Mechwarrior Living Legends for a bit. Bask in some HUGE maps. Then come back and realise that MWO is a arena shooter...

[El Bandito]

Anjian, on 17 September 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

Its not going to help much and doesn't really solve the core issue at all, which is just bad level design + bad game mode design.

Core issue is not even gonna be looked at, until MW5 is out. So give up on any big changes and learn to live with what we have. And what we have clearly is not suitable for 16v16 QP, or even 12v12.

[Peter2k]

Anjian, on 17 September 2018 - 01:54 AM, said:

That's because they were designed to be pretty first and foremost, and no one appears to have a clue about level design.

Ohh, guess I have a different standard for pretty
I can count the # of maps that are some kind of pretty on a single hand

but agree with the sentiment

Anjian, on 17 September 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

which is just bad level design + bad game mode design.

agreed, but looking at what we got in the last 5 years I'm not gonna hold my breath with MWO
This year alone was rather "light" on any dev time for QP, not to mention FP

Edited by Peter2k, 18 September 2018 - 12:52 AM.

[MrMadguy]

Dunno. Because PGI don't play their own game? They just design maps from artist point of view - not map designer one. They try to make different textures, landscapes and different features, but they don't know anything about gameplay. For example biggest mistake - lack of cover. Cover - is essential thing in this game. Because core mechanic of this game - is "Deal more damage, than you take". Without cover this game is purely about "Who has bigger Alpha dmg?" and "Whose 'Mech is more invulnerable due to lagshield and broken hitreg?". Second biggest mistake - is lack of variety. If PGI would be competent in PVP game development, they would know, that essential part of any PVP game - is RNG, caused by players' choices. So map should provide some choices to pick from. Whether I should go left or right here? Whether I should go CW or CCW? Should I flank or backstab? And if map is just corridor or open space - there is no choice, game again boils down to "Who have more firepower?" and such game becomes boring pretty fast.

So, terrible map design in this game - is 2nd reason, why I've stopped playing this game.

Edited by MrMadguy, 18 September 2018 - 01:25 AM.

[Anjian]

Grus, on 17 September 2018 - 09:24 PM, said:

Go play Mechwarrior Living Legends for a bit. Bask in some HUGE maps. Then come back and realise that MWO is a arena shooter...

There is nothing wrong with being an arena shooter. After all its still a game, and arenas are for games. Just like a soccer field. Sometimes being too big is not good.

Having huge maps that players don't utilize results in longer loading times, higher memory consumption, and players just complaining that it takes them this amount of time to get from point a to point b.

[Davegt27]

MRBC Map strat link

https://maps.mrbcleague.com:8443/

Edited by Davegt27, 24 September 2018 - 03:02 AM.