198 replies to this topic

[Dryderian]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 26 September 2018 - 02:17 PM, said:

Key to assaults is playing a handful of steps ahead and knowing when you are committing or not. When you are committed, best to slug it out where you are, how you are than trying to retreat, exposing yourself. Remember, fear is the mind killer.

Well I did even outrun a Marauder in a Hunchback 4p and stayed behind him, I had only 1 med left, but think how easy that is for a Piranha: They have 8 hardpoints for a weapon you do not even have to pinpoint aim with.

And that is a reason to nerf MGs overall, well done PGI.

The only mech I know with many hardpoints for MGs before the Piranha was the Arrow having six ballistic hardpoints, but it is a bigger 40 ton mech and running at 90 kph.

Edited by Dryderian, 26 September 2018 - 03:08 PM.

[Nightbird]

Kaeb Odellas, on 26 September 2018 - 01:55 PM, said:

I can definitely do that if you really want. I'm garbage at piloting assaults though, so it's not exactly a great comparison. And my sample size for most assault mechs are going to be way too low to be useful.

Go for it, hopefully you have more than 50 matches in a Anni or KDK3 or MCII?

[Y E O N N E]

Dryderian, on 26 September 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

The only mech I know with many hardpoints for MGs before the Piranha was the Arrow having six ballistic hardpoints, but it is a bigger 40 ton mech and running at 90 kph.

Shadow Cat has had 7x since release, Mist Lynx and Arctic Cheetah both got 8x mid-way through last year. But the MLX and ACH both have their MGs in fragile arms, so it evens out; I think there's more skill to playing an MLX well than to playing a PIR well, but I have yet to drive my PIR-1 to put that theory to the test.

[Tonberry Knife]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 September 2018 - 09:23 PM, said:

It's not OP against Wolfhounds, Urbanmechs, Mist Lynxes, Arctic Cheetahs, Commandos, and Fleas in their current states.

No one was talking about lights vs lights. Although that is an issue as well and even though it's not OP against some of the mechs you listed. It's still much better.

Wolfhound - Massive, but decent quirks/hardpoints for an IS "light"
Urbanmech - If you mean the K9? Yes it's fine as is.
Mist Lynx - Way larger than a Piranha and most hardpoints are mounted on those easy to hit arms. Also slower.
Arctic Cheetah - Larger than Piranha and slower + fewer hardpoints but can choose to have ECM/JJs at the expense of hardpoints/tonnage.
Commando - Few hardpoints but decent quirks - This one isn't bad but still outclassed by the Piranha's firepower. Oh and garbage IS XL engines.
Flea - Fast, small, fewer hardpoints than a Piranha though and XL IS engine. It does have MASC though which increases its survivability.

My point was that the Piranha gets GREAT HITBOXES, SPEED and FIREPOWER (torso mounted), while the other lights have compromised one or more of these.

What about:
Spiders
Ravens
Jenners
Firestarters

But it was so nice of you to pick out one part of my post and take it out of context.

dario03, on 25 September 2018 - 09:24 PM, said:

Re-size for a lot of mechs could be done by just reverting them to what they used to be. But if they don't want to do that then just re quirking could be done. A lot of lights have very little quirks.

Thank you for at least properly addressing my post.

Edited by Tonberry Knife, 26 September 2018 - 04:01 PM.

[Dryderian]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 September 2018 - 03:41 PM, said:

Shadow Cat has had 7x since release, Mist Lynx and Arctic Cheetah both got 8x mid-way through last year. But the MLX and ACH both have their MGs in fragile arms, so it evens out; I think there's more skill to playing an MLX well than to playing a PIR well, but I have yet to drive my PIR-1 to put that theory to the test.

Well I am more the IS mech guy, should have had also a look at the older clan mechs. I got some clan mechs, but not many.

Edited by Dryderian, 26 September 2018 - 04:20 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Tonberry Knife, on 26 September 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

No one was talking about lights vs lights. Although that is an issue as well and even though it's not OP against some of the mechs you listed. It's still much better.

No it isn't.

Quote

Wolfhound - Massive, but decent quirks/hardpoints for an IS "light"
Urbanmech - If you mean the K9? Yes it's fine as is.
Mist Lynx - Way larger than a Piranha and most hardpoints are mounted on those easy to hit arms. Also slower.
Arctic Cheetah - Larger than Piranha and slower + fewer hardpoints but can choose to have ECM/JJs at the expense of hardpoints/tonnage.
Commando - Few hardpoints but decent quirks - This one isn't bad but still outclassed by the Piranha's firepower. Oh and garbage IS XL engines.
Flea - Fast, small, fewer hardpoints than a Piranha though and XL IS engine. It does have MASC though which increases its survivability.

My point was that the Piranha gets GREAT HITBOXES, SPEED and FIREPOWER (torso mounted), while the other lights have compromised one or more of these.

Your point is misguided.

It doesn't matter what combination of attributes you have; if the 'Mechs are performing equivalently, then they are performing equivalently. The 'Mechs I listed don't need that combination of stats to perform just as well, because they have a mixture of their own features that enable them to reach similar heights.

Quote

What about:
Spiders
Ravens
Jenners
Firestarters

Talk to PGI, not me. Some of those are not as bad as you think they are, but all of them have PGI-induced deficiencies that have caused them to fall from a point of better performance that they used to enjoy.

Quote

But it was so nice of you to pick out one part of my post and take it out of context.

There was no picking any part out of context. This is the entire post:

Tonberry Knife, on 25 September 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

I would like someone to explain to me why the Piranha gets all of those hardpoints, small hitboxes and a "pass" as a glass cannon when other lights do not.

You may not think the Piranha is OP in terms of overall gameplay but among lights, it is definitely OP. Then you'll probably say "Let's buff other lights to the Piranha's level!" You know PGI isn't going to do that because it would involve both resizing and re-quirking all of the other lights to bring them in line with the Piranha.

...and I replied to the entire post. Not only can those Lights I mentioned demolish a Piranha, they can also do just as much work as a Piranha against larger 'Mechs while being much harder to actually kill. The drawback all of them have in common, including the PIR, is that it takes both time and a team sharing aggro for them to work. Unlike certain Assaults, they will not be pumping out 700 damage after a mere 30 seconds of combat (barring an excellent artillery strike).

100% relevant.

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So where do we go from here? It's still a problem regardless if you want to admit it or not.

According to whom? You? Don't make me laugh.

[Tonberry Knife]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 September 2018 - 04:28 PM, said:

No it isn't.


Your point is misguided


According to whom? You? Don't make me laugh.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but you don't have to get all toxic about it and what you said was out of context because you mentioned lights vs lights. I was talking about how other lights compare to the Piranha not how they perform AGAINST it.

Can't even have a proper discussion because you dismiss all opinions as being less than your own. There are no winners in an argument over the internet and that's what this thread is devolving into.

Edited by Tonberry Knife, 26 September 2018 - 06:12 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

Piranah's are still OP, only now the meta build has shifted to another variant.

[Lykaon]

Inatu Elimor, on 19 September 2018 - 01:11 AM, said:

It' s not the Pir...it' s the skilled pilot you need to be afraid off.

Put that same pilot in a Flea and I am less concerned.

[Prototelis]

Lol, fle-17 > pir

Typical fle17 builds one shot pir legs (or damn close)

[Y E O N N E]

Tonberry Knife, on 26 September 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

I agree with a lot of what you said, but you don't have to get all toxic about it and what you said was out of context because you mentioned lights vs lights. I was talking about how other lights compare to the Piranha not how they perform AGAINST it.

I'm not being toxic; when you misinterpret a post and have the gall to think you can get away with this tone:

Quote

But it was so nice of you to pick out one part of my post and take it out of context.

...I am going to reciprocate. Don't like it? Bite your tongue.

My reply was this, in its entirety:

Yeonne Greene, on 25 September 2018 - 09:23 PM, said:

It's not OP against Wolfhounds, Urbanmechs, Mist Lynxes, Arctic Cheetahs, Commandos, and Fleas in their current states.

...which is agnostic to Lights vs. Lights or Lights vs. the world. All of them are compared against each other regardless of whether or not you are comparing their abilities to kill each other or their abilities to rack up big scores. So, no, I was not ever out of context. Pedantic BS aside, it is not a wrong statement regardless of intent. All of those 'Mechs perform around the same level overall.

Quote

Can't even have a proper discussion because you dismiss all opinions as being less than your own. There are no winners in an argument over the internet and that's what this thread is devolving into.

Not all opinions are created equal, and that's a reality you are going to have to face sooner or later. You can call it distasteful or whatever desperate description you want, but I don't know you. I don't know how you play. All I can see is what classes you played and how well you did with them in Season 26 and then extrapolate what that means for how well-formulated your opinion on the subject might be after comparing it against my own performance history and experiences playing both casual and competitive. So it's not an out-of-hand dismissal, but knowing how easy it is to frag a Piranha...I can't take the "Piranha is broken and needs fixed" stance seriously.

What I can agree with, is that crits are super un-fun. It is not at all entertaining to have all of your weapons in a section evaporate the moment the armor gets breached and then wander around as so much dead weight. That can be toned down. But the applied damage rate? The mobility? The size? These are all fine. We need more Lights that can perform at the level of those in the list above, not less.

[cougurt]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 September 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

What I can agree with, is that crits are super un-fun. It is not at all entertaining to have all of your weapons in a section evaporate the moment the armor gets breached and then wander around as so much dead weight. That can be toned down. But the applied damage rate? The mobility? The size? These are all fine. We need more Lights that can perform at the level of those in the list above, not less.

agreed. if i were to nerf the piranha in some way, it would be to put a cap on the rate at which crits can occur against weapons and equipment, probably around the level of 6 MGs. i don't know if that's something that can even be done, but i think it would make them much less annoying to deal with.

[Y E O N N E]

cougurt, on 28 September 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

agreed. if i were to nerf the piranha in some way, it would be to put a cap on the rate at which crits can occur against weapons and equipment, probably around the level of 6 MGs. i don't know if that's something that can even be done, but i think it would make them much less annoying to deal with.

The catch is that the bonus damage that MGs do to structure is tied to crits, so if you want to keep that you're going to have to increase the damage, which also buffs against armor. If you want to keep that.

[cougurt]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 September 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

The catch is that the bonus damage that MGs do to structure is tied to crits, so if you want to keep that you're going to have to increase the damage, which also buffs against armor. If you want to keep that.

yeah, i imagine they'd probably have to mess with the code to allow for equipment-specific crits, which seems unlikely to happen considering how many other stupid limitations this game has.

[Y E O N N E]

The alternative is that we just buff the crap out of equipment health. I'm game for that.

[cougurt]

i wouldn't mind an increase to equipment health, but that also hurts mechs that use fewer MGs for the purpose of critting out equipment. not sure how you could address that without universal ROF quirks for any mech with less than ~5 ballistic hardpoints.

[Y E O N N E]

cougurt, on 28 September 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

i wouldn't mind an increase to equipment health, but that also hurts mechs that use fewer MGs for the purpose of critting out equipment. not sure how you could address that without universal ROF quirks for any mech with less than ~5 ballistic hardpoints.

...or buffs to their other weapons.

I mean, those 'Mechs are always going to require some help. For flavor, we can focus the RoF quirks on a particular MG.

[cougurt]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 September 2018 - 05:42 PM, said:

...or buffs to their other weapons.

I mean, those 'Mechs are always going to require some help. For flavor, we can focus the RoF quirks on a particular MG.

i suppose that works, it just seems like kind of a messy solution. i'm not opposed to quirks by any means, but i feel like the baseline effectiveness for a single MG probably shouldn't be much lower than it already is.