51 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

Hmm.

LRMs, as they are played by most players of this game, were boring before they got buffed, boring after they got buffed, and are boring now.

But by all means, go forth, stay back, hide behind rocks and friendlies, call for locks, click that button, and call for help in 9 out of 10 matches when the Piranhas come for you.

The "excitement" of the LRM-ing way is all there for you to enjoy.

[Horseman]

The only buff LRMs need is to have the target locking radius increased - the current one is annoyingly small.

[Thorqemada]

Its all Garth Erlams fault him panicking every time he got a Missile warning…

[Asym]

Let's think this through: faster than light travel, check; military grade lasers, check; Machines that somehow walk, run and jump, check; Machine guns that can destroy machines designed in a FTL universe, check. Airstrikes that use aircraft but there are no aircraft in actual use in ground battles, check.

Then, we have indirect fire weapons that are "stupid" and yet, the counter indirect fire systems are smart and active?

The best answer is usually the simplest answer when you have multiple assumptions........(Occam's razor/laws of parsimony et al...)

All indirect fire weapons should be buffed and made as deadly as the others.......balance. Ballistic weapons should have TC's that "project lead and elevation corrections" to targets as well...... Lasers, ballistic and indirect fire all should be technology equivalent...... Look at it this way, Lasers are the only weapons that don't have a mitigation process.........they don't jam and and are not "dumb fired"; nor, do lasers have a spread or miss opportunity or have an entire skill node process to use to protect from them ! Good grief, the paradox is so obtuse, no wonder people stopped playing.

Make all weapons "equal and deadly" and then, you'll find warriors instead of "it's not fair" gamers.....and, the rest of us might just come back....

Edited by Asym, 21 September 2018 - 06:11 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Asym, on 21 September 2018 - 06:08 AM, said:

Make all weapons "equal and deadly" and then, you'll find warriors instead of "it's not fair" gamers.....and, the rest of us might just come back....

Let's make ALL Clan weapons carbon copies of IS in all respects. Make only difference is sound and laser color.

Everything will be fair and equal and all dependent on pilot skill.

No more easier button for Clans.

[K O Z A K]

Asym, on 21 September 2018 - 06:08 AM, said:

Make all weapons "equal and deadly" and then, you'll find warriors instead of "it's not fair" gamers.....and, the rest of us might just come back....

lol, translation: "Pls make easy mode no skill weapon more powerful. Then I can finally stick it to those try hards that position, aim and roll damage"

[Horseman]

Asym, on 21 September 2018 - 06:08 AM, said:

Look at it this way, Lasers are the only weapons that don't have a mitigation process.........they don't jam and and are not "dumb fired"; nor, do lasers have a spread or miss opportunity or have an entire skill node process to use to protect from them ! Good grief, the paradox is so obtuse, no wonder people stopped playing.

Lasers have a mitigation process... it's known as torso twisting. Their damage is not dealt instantly, but in multiple ticks during the burn. If the beam meets a different component, the next damage tick will be applied there and not on the original location.

[Mystere]

Asym, on 21 September 2018 - 06:08 AM, said:

Make all weapons "equal and deadly" and then, you'll find warriors instead of "it's not fair" gamers.....and, the rest of us might just come back....

But it's totally unfair for the enemy to be able to shoot me but I cannot shoot back.

[Asym]

Horseman, on 21 September 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

Lasers have a mitigation process... it's known as torso twisting. Their damage is not dealt instantly, but in multiple ticks during the burn. If the beam meets a different component, the next damage tick will be applied there and not on the original location.

OK, let's use you logic.....If the laser reticle is on the target, all of the damage arrives at light speed...........and, no matter how the target twists, that damage is done. Ballistic weapons are slower and involve actually aiming !!! 100% of their damage is not guaranteed, especially at long range as lasers are. Indirect fire weapons are even a grade lower in damage expectations and there are no less than three complete mitigation technologies to defeat them.....

Your logic is that "if you don't use lasers you're not GuD" and yet, the only weapons systems that is LOS=LOF and has a 100% guarantee of damage are the simplest weapons to use: if the reticle is on the target it is immediately hit......

No other weapon come with that guarantee

So, you want a serious game? Give ballistic weapons a TC that insures that range and elevations are provided as fire control data. Give IDF weapons the FTL derived tracking, controlling and aiming technologies to make them deadly (and, keep the AMS, Radar Dep and ECM counters).... Of course, that means you and many other whom complain about LRMs might actually have to equip and use those systems and have to give up a few slots and tons of weigh............

This will never happen because if the game actually did what I suggested, the days of open terrain brawling would end.....and, the FPS segment of the game would leave en masse to find another FPS.......(good luck with that.....)

[Horseman]

Asym, on 21 September 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

OK, let's use you logic.....If the laser reticle is on the target, all of the damage arrives at light speed...........and, no matter how the target twists, that damage is done.

That is not the case, and I told you as much in the post you were quoting.

• Laser damage is not instant. It's spread out over the entire burn duration.
  
• If your beam is not held on target for the full burn, you have not dealt full damage.
  
• If your beam is not held on same component for the full burn, you have not dealt all damage to that single component either.

Quote

Your logic is that "if you don't use lasers you're not GuD"

I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

Quote

and yet, the only weapons systems that is LOS=LOF and has a 100% guarantee of damage

You're missing the critical part: they do not have a guarantee to deal 100% of said damage onto the target unless the target is sitting still and not trying to evade, and they do not have a guarantee to deal all of said damage onto a single component.

Mechs can survive plenty of damage without losing combat effectiveness.
If an enemy mech lost 200 HP on a single component, on most targets that component is GONE and the mech likely crippled or outright killed (some very tough Assault mechs like ANH-2A or AS7-K may take this on their CT and just barely survive - but they're an exception rather than a rule)
If an enemy mech lost 30 HP each on all components across his front, that's the same amount of damage - and yet, plenty of mechs can take it, still have armor left and continue killing your teammates unimpeded.

Edited by Horseman, 21 September 2018 - 10:57 PM.

[Jables McBarty]

Wil McCullough, on 20 September 2018 - 04:26 PM, said:

Every lurm forum topic is the same

FTFY

Variant1, on 20 September 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

was i just baited?

masterfully

Edited by Jables McBarty, 21 September 2018 - 01:49 PM.

[InspectorG]

Wil McCullough, on 20 September 2018 - 04:26 PM, said:

There will be people who say that lurms are underpowered and deserve a buff.

Then there'll be a guy who comes in all WHY NARF LURMS? LURMS GUD LURMS NOT OP. YOU JUST A H8TERBOI and the whole thing goes to ****.

As **** as lurms, in fact. That weapon needs buffs not nerfs, paul.

Here is a different Lurm topic for you:

I wanna casually come back to MWO but my rig gets 15FPS on the decent maps.

Im gonna have to lurm because i get lag if there is too much crap on the screen


SHOULD I COME BACK???

Caveat: im past Bittervet phase, i just wanna shoot some robots as my brain relaxes from work, i no longer care about KDR/WL or lost opportunities for this game.

[Ruar]

As long as LRMs use a homing mechanic they have to be kept toned down. Any weapon that homes to it's target has the potential to be incredibly overpowered.

I wish LRMs had better ability to shape the battlefield, but they can't be given that power and retain the ability to home to their target. Remove homing and make LRMs more of an area effect weapon and then increase their damage and you'd have a decent weapon that could be used in both indirect and direct fire mode.

[Mystere]

Variant1, on 20 September 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

was i just baited?

Nah! Never!

[Asym]

Horseman, on 21 September 2018 - 01:04 PM, said:

That is not the case, and I told you as much in the post you were quoting.

• Laser damage is not instant. It's spread out over the entire burn duration.
  
• If your beam is not held on target for the full burn, you have not dealt full damage.
  
• If your beam is not held on same component for the full burn, you have not dealt all damage to that single component either.

I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

You're missing the critical part: they do not have a guarantee to deal 100% of said damage onto the target unless the target is sitting still and not trying to evade, and they do not have a guarantee to deal all of said damage onto a single component.

Mechs can survive plenty of damage without losing combat effectiveness.
If an enemy mech lost 200 HP on a single component, on most targets that component is GONE and the mech likely crippled or outright killed (some very tough Assault mechs like ANH-2A or AS7-K may take this on their CT and just barely survive - but they're an exception rather than a rule)
If an enemy mech lost 30 HP each on all components across his front, that's the same amount of damage - and yet, plenty of mechs can take it, still have armor left and continue killing your teammates unimpeded.

Oh please..... This is a discussion about "us" not you or "I".... apologies if you think I'm aiming at you....

Lasers are the easiest weapons to use in MWO. Put the reticle on the target and you have instant, 100% effective hit whether the mech is standing or moving or "just a little bit visible..." The HP argument is silly because lasers are in fact LOS=LOF.... You can actually pin-point damage with lasers........there is that level of precision not matter the target ! Do that with a UAC-2 at 1000 meters with a moving target, eh?! Or, even worse, a LRM.........ha!

The entire LRM discussion over the years has been about "skill" or "not having to really aim" or "not having to face an enemy directly"... Actually, this has always been a discussion about Brawling mechanics and Arcade style gameplay.

The OP is correct in this thread's title: the LRM topics are mostly the same because the root cause is game play mechanics....
The entire franchise "evolved" this past couple of years from a team oriented "value Proposition" to a FPS "value Proposition".... From Faction Play conducted all across the MW Universe in large organized teams; to Solaris, a FPS arcade event that hoped to capture all of the arcade FPS's and failed; towards MW5, which is a single player oriented game where the entire MW franchise started......... A complete loop.....back to the start. WHY?

Because of the conflict with the concepts of battle space mechanics and culture.............It's why HBS BT split off to find a "Bluer Ocean" that dwelt in the "culture" that inspired MWO..... They focused on the culture and MWO tried to focus on the mechanics and guess what, Culture trumps change 1oo% of the time....

Get GuD is the symptom of the disease called meritocratic toxicity and, it's a pretty bad condition of late and many games are suffering from it to the point some have imploded, are under investigation for all sorts of reasons and many have just ceased top exist.......as culture demands a price.....

You and I have no real play in this drama.......we both like the game and want it to "get better" and enjoy some quality of life beyond tomorrow.... How is the only thing that separates us.

Aim small, miss small pilgrim.

[YueFei]

Asym, on 22 September 2018 - 05:59 AM, said:

Oh please..... This is a discussion about "us" not you or "I".... apologies if you think I'm aiming at you....

Lasers are the easiest weapons to use in MWO. Put the reticle on the target and you have instant, 100% effective hit whether the mech is standing or moving or "just a little bit visible..." The HP argument is silly because lasers are in fact LOS=LOF.... You can actually pin-point damage with lasers........there is that level of precision not matter the target ! Do that with a UAC-2 at 1000 meters with a moving target, eh?! Or, even worse, a LRM.........ha!

Do you understand how geometry and how occlusion works?

You cannot hit a hitbox that is occluded by other hitboxes. AKA Torso Twisting.

Hell, even ducking back into cover before a laser burn completes is do-able.

You also fail to take human reflexes into account. At 200ms reaction time for the shooter, some mechs have high enough accel/decel to juke laser burns onto adjacent hitboxes with stutter-stepping alone, while others need to leg turn simultaneously, and others still can do jump-jet-landing animation spazzing, but whatever the method used, the end result is that no human shooter could react fast enough to keep the burn on the same hitbox.

Mitigating a laser burn is easier to pull off if you are pro-active and often moving defensively, drunk-walking, etc., because that minimizes the disadvantage your own ping and your own human reflexes have, versus trying to reactively defend against a laser burn once it has started.

And setting aside the theory, It's quite evident that in practice as well, even top players don't land all their laser damage into one component against each other.

If they're shooting at potatoes, sure it becomes easy, punch-a-hole-right-thru-one-hitbox. But when they're shooting at each other? Matches drag on and mechs suffer damage all across different components.

[The6thMessenger]

Viking Yelling, on 20 September 2018 - 08:46 PM, said:

"Game Engine: Sorry, I cant let you do that."

Lol, No. It's PGI not wanting to do any work. They claim that they don't want a waste-of-space weapon, yet they don't want to put the time and effort to make the rework.

The rework doesn't need to have completely new mechanics, it just need to have different approach. For example, we already have the LOS/No-LOS boolean that we have when we need to get Locks, why not recycle lines of code from those to prevent missile-locks without LOS/NARC/TAG.

Viking Yelling, on 20 September 2018 - 08:46 PM, said:

Really though, i dont even thin anyone even uses LRMs as a variety. Pretty much anytime you see LRMs, Its on an LRM boat.
If everyone on a team had an LRM 10, that would be enough artillery for any indirect fire operations. The rampant conflict with this is min-maxing and MWO's effective game theory of making all games negative-sum in way of firepower and armor.

I use 3x UAC5 + 4x ERML + 2x LRM15A time to time with my Dire-Wolf.

[The Mysterious Fox]

im still getting 4-5 assault and heavy lrm boats in qp games and 2-4 wave of lrm boats in fp even after the nerfs. so :/ the few recent lrm events must be causing people to relapse again

[Asym]

YueFei, on 22 September 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

Do you understand how geometry and how occlusion works?

You cannot hit a hitbox that is occluded by other hitboxes. AKA Torso Twisting.

Hell, even ducking back into cover before a laser burn completes is do-able.

You also fail to take human reflexes into account. At 200ms reaction time for the shooter, some mechs have high enough accel/decel to juke laser burns onto adjacent hitboxes with stutter-stepping alone, while others need to leg turn simultaneously, and others still can do jump-jet-landing animation spazzing, but whatever the method used, the end result is that no human shooter could react fast enough to keep the burn on the same hitbox.

Mitigating a laser burn is easier to pull off if you are pro-active and often moving defensively, drunk-walking, etc., because that minimizes the disadvantage your own ping and your own human reflexes have, versus trying to reactively defend against a laser burn once it has started.

And setting aside the theory, It's quite evident that in practice as well, even top players don't land all their laser damage into one component against each other.

If they're shooting at potatoes, sure it becomes easy, punch-a-hole-right-thru-one-hitbox. But when they're shooting at each other? Matches drag on and mechs suffer damage all across different components.

Oh, good grief.

Yes and oh, please...... The fact is, if I target you by placing the reticle on your mech, no matter the distance, that :LOS=LOF projected energy will in fact, in not blocked by anything else physical or material, will hit you.... Twisting or ducking or hiding behind another mech only lessens the damage that is 100% guaranteed !!! the other "classes" of weapons can not even come close to that rate of success.....

OK, reaction tilne? Seriously??? It's a LOS=LOF light speed weapons... If you even catch a sliver or a target you create immediate damage.......looks at the "Skywalker" technique of shooting running lights where larger mechs use the "swinging on lasers" to hit the target because they aren't nearly good enough to actually keep the reticle on the target........that's a pilot error, no a weapons error and on;y increased the argument that lasers are the easiest weapons to use.....because you'd miss exponentially more with ballistic weapons or now, guided missiles where the lock is far easier broken *to humor the FPS brawling players whom were crying "it's not fair....")

Again, PGI is desperate to keep brawling alive because they couldn't afford the game engine combined arms large team warfare woth precision lonf range and deadly weapons requires and more importantly, PGI found the player base completely lacking in any military skills for advanced team or precision long range warfare........so, the removed it from the game......and, should you doubt this, because it isn't a theory, look at the main screen of the game..........does it not say "Solaris????"

Good luck with the arcade and silly brawling..........the rest of us can wait............

[Ssamout]

Asym, on 22 September 2018 - 05:59 AM, said:

Get GuD is the symptom of the disease called meritocratic toxicity and, it's a pretty bad condition of late and many games are suffering from it to the point some have imploded, are under investigation for all sorts of reasons and many have just ceased top exist.......as culture demands a price.....

No. Git God has existed in computer games since computer games were born. Overall, games seem to be getting more casual by the day. Skill or wanting to face skill in PvP is looked at like some kind of toxicity, hacking and contempt and cries are to dumb down stuff cos learning is hard.