22 replies to this topic

[Natred]

I am curious why clan ultra 20s use 3 ammo per shot?? If pgi wants to make them viable than 1 ammo per shot used would be a better investment for tonnage. Just a thought. I wonder if the inner sphere ultra 20 use 3 ammo as well.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Even though it uses more ammo per shot, it has the same number of trigger pulls per ton of ammo. Divide the total ammo count by the number of shots per trigger pull- they'll be the same across techbase and weapon type for all ACs of the same rating. All AC20s (LB20X, AC20, UAC20) get 8 trigger-pulls per ton of ammo- so, for CUAC20 and CAC20(4 shots/trigger pull), that's 32 rounds of ammo, for IS UAC20 (3 shots/ trigger pull) that's 24 rounds of ammo, and for all other AC20s it's 8 rounds of ammo (1 shot per trigger pull).

*edit: The reason behind some ACs firing in bursts and some firing single shots (or smaller bursts) is that the Clan versions of these weapons cost fewer crit slots and less tonnage to mount. The longer burst is the gameplay tradeoff for carrying a lighter, smaller weapon that deals the same overall damage.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 19 September 2018 - 03:25 PM.

[Brizna]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 19 September 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

Correct stuff

You are right of course but that doesn't mean the decision to differentiate trigger pulls from bullet count wasn't silly. This is not at all like SRM, LRM and so on which you can fire with weapons of varying sizes, you can only fire UAC20 ammo with an UAC20 gun so counting individual pellets serves no other purpose than that of chaos.

[FupDup]

Brizna, on 19 September 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

You are right of course but that doesn't mean the decision to differentiate trigger pulls from bullet count wasn't silly. This is not at all like SRM, LRM and so on which you can fire with weapons of varying sizes, you can only fire UAC20 ammo with an UAC20 gun so counting individual pellets serves no other purpose than that of chaos.

It wasn't directly a decision to differentiate trigger pulls from bullet count. It's just a natural side-effect of the burst-fire mechanic. It's literally the same mechanic as the old Narc missile tube that only let one missile out at a time.

[Y E O N N E]

You can jam a UAC mid-burst; it's much better to know how many actual rounds you have left than to get some rounding algorithm that may or may not be accurate. You know the Clan one bursts for 4 and the IS one for 3, the math is easy even in combat.

[El Bandito]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 19 September 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

*edit: The reason behind some ACs firing in bursts and some firing single shots (or smaller bursts) is that the Clan versions of these weapons cost fewer crit slots and less tonnage to mount. The longer burst is the gameplay tradeoff for carrying a lighter, smaller weapon that deals the same overall damage.

Not to mention CUACs have longer range than IS ACs.

[Jackal Noble]

El Bandito, on 19 September 2018 - 09:00 PM, said:

Not to mention CUACs have longer range than IS ACs.

Sure. They also suck across a wider ban of chassis' in non-boated form. Is it any wonder why you don't see any C lights or mediums hauling around a C-UAC5?

Edited by Jackal Noble, 19 September 2018 - 10:04 PM.

[FupDup]

Jackal Noble, on 19 September 2018 - 10:03 PM, said:

Sure. They also suck across a wider ban of chassis' in non-boated form. Is it any wonder why you don't see any C lights or mediums hauling around a C-UAC5?

Probably the same reasons why you don't see any IS lights or mediums with an IS UAC/5.

[Khobai]

Jackal Noble, on 19 September 2018 - 10:03 PM, said:

Sure. They also suck across a wider ban of chassis' in non-boated form. Is it any wonder why you don't see any C lights or mediums hauling around a C-UAC5?

hunchback IIC with x3 CUAC5 isnt that bad IMO

[Jackal Noble]

Khobai, on 19 September 2018 - 11:07 PM, said:

hunchback IIC with x3 CUAC5 isnt that bad IMO

I meant a single one.

[Jackal Noble]

FupDup, on 19 September 2018 - 10:08 PM, said:

Probably the same reasons why you don't see any IS lights or mediums with an IS UAC/5.

idk about that. The Assassin and the Cicada are pretty solid with a UAC5.

[El Bandito]

Jackal Noble, on 19 September 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

idk about that. The Assassin and the Cicada are pretty solid with a UAC5.

Only due to quirks, not because the weapon itself is good.

Currently UACs are best when boated.

[Khobai]

El Bandito, on 20 September 2018 - 12:30 AM, said:

Only due to quirks, not because the weapon itself is good.

Currently UACs are best when boated.

every weapon in the game works best when boated

seems kindve silly to pick on UAC5s specifically when every other weapon is also bad when you only take one of them

thats always been a major flaw of MWO's design, that boating is massively superior to mixed loadouts, and that PGI's quirks and skill trees only serve to reinforce boating as the best way to design mechs. Logically youd think that quirks and the skill tree would be used to reward mixed loadouts more in order to counteract the already strong incentive to boat, but nope...

Edited by Khobai, 20 September 2018 - 05:54 AM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 20 September 2018 - 05:47 AM, said:

every weapon in the game works best when boated

seems kindve silly to pick on UAC5s specifically when every other weapon is also bad when you only take one of them

thats always been a major flaw of MWO's design, that boating is massively superior to mixed loadouts, and that PGI's quirks and skill trees only serve to reinforce boating as the best way to design mechs. Logically youd think that quirks and the skill tree would be used to reward mixed loadouts more in order to counteract the already strong incentive to boat, but nope...

PGI does give big quirks on weapon types that are alone on a mech, such as CIcada-3M's ballistic mount, in hopes of people trying mixed builds. However, mixed builds are simply not optimal and it is not the fault of MWO alone. Even way back in table top, boated weapons were superior. There is simply no easy way to get around min-maxing weapons with similar attributes.

[theta123]

El Bandito, on 20 September 2018 - 07:41 AM, said:

PGI does give big quirks on weapon types that are alone on a mech, such as CIcada-3M's ballistic mount, in hopes of people trying mixed builds. However, mixed builds are simply not optimal and it is not the fault of MWO alone. Even way back in table top, boated weapons were superior. There is simply no easy way to get around min-maxing weapons with similar attributes.

Superior or not, i use them. Seeing boated mechs pretty much pisses me off. like a 6LL stalker or 8 UAC 2 Direwolf

[Khobai]

El Bandito, on 20 September 2018 - 07:41 AM, said:

PGI does give big quirks on weapon types that are alone on a mech, such as CIcada-3M's ballistic mount, in hopes of people trying mixed builds. However, mixed builds are simply not optimal and it is not the fault of MWO alone. Even way back in table top, boated weapons were superior. There is simply no easy way to get around min-maxing weapons with similar attributes.

of course theres no easy way around the min-maxing of boating

but that doesnt mean PGI should further encourage the trend by having quirks and a skill tree that rewards boating

it boating is an undesirable behavior then PGI should take every step possible to discourage that behavior more. instead of feeding it with their awful quirk system and terrible skill tree.

im under no delusions about us getting rid of boating, its not gonna happen, but im not convinced that mixed loadouts cant be somewhat viable if boating was less rewarded by quirks/skilltree.

then maybe PGI wouldnt have to force people to play stockmechs to get more weapon diversity in their tournaments.

Edited by Khobai, 20 September 2018 - 12:33 PM.

[Holy Jackson]

I don't know about you guys but I think running around with a UAC20 on an adder is super fun.

[panzer1b]

Jackal Noble, on 19 September 2018 - 10:03 PM, said:

Sure. They also suck across a wider ban of chassis' in non-boated form. Is it any wonder why you don't see any C lights or mediums hauling around a C-UAC5?

To be honest, all UACs but the 10 (and very rarely 20) suck on most mechs. The 20 is good, but its range limits its use to only brawling (which is alot of fun and works on the right map, but i generally dont like to limit my range that much in pugs). The 10s are at that point where 2 of them provide enough single exposure damage to mean something and are also light enough to bring on most heavys and a few mediums that support ballistics at all. The 5s are more or less filler for when you want more guns but are at 2 10s and thus ghost heat limited and forced to bring a 5 or 2.

2s suck outside of a very well positioned direpig with 8 of them (or maybee a mauler/anni with 6), so that puts thoase in such a extreme niche that 90% of mechs bringing them wont be useful. RACs are situational and unlike UACs, dont frontload any damage meaning you have to commit with them which may or may not be possible. Regular ACs have the issue of terrible frontload (unless you have 30 damage per trigger or more), and also lack short term DPS which is far more valuable to a mech then more precise damage application (id rather do 60 damage to a mech in the same time it takes a AC boat to do 30 even if half of it spreads to the adjacent component).

So yeah, bring UAC10s, then uac5s if you cant bring more 10s.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 20 September 2018 - 12:14 PM, said:

of course theres no easy way around the min-maxing of boating

but that doesnt mean PGI should further encourage the trend by having quirks and a skill tree that rewards boating

it boating is an undesirable behavior then PGI should take every step possible to discourage that behavior more. instead of feeding it with their awful quirk system and terrible skill tree.

im under no delusions about us getting rid of boating, its not gonna happen, but im not convinced that mixed loadouts cant be somewhat viable if boating was less rewarded by quirks/skilltree.

Most quirks and skills are already generic across a weapon category (ballistic, energy, missile) or generic across all weapons period (skill tree heat gen, cooldown, etc.). Even in the case of semi-specific quirks it applies to a whole weapon sub-family, like all IS PPCs, all STD lasers, all LRMs, etc.

The only single-weapon quirks still in effect are some very old IS UAC/5 quirks from before the Civil War NuTech™ and the Clan ERPPC (because the Clans don't ever make any other kind of PPC). Well, and there's the Cicada 3C that still has ERPPC quirks (in dire need of general PPC quirks instead so it can actually use the HPPC effectively).

Edited by FupDup, 20 September 2018 - 04:17 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

There are more weapon-specific quirks than that. Some IS 'Mechs with ERPPC quirks (i.e. BLR-3M, AWS-9M), some Medium Laser quirks (i.e. MAD-BH2, BLR-3M, though these do apply to ERML as well), some Large Laser quirks (STK-4N). There are also some bizarre Standard Laser quirks (one of the Trebuchets).