26 replies to this topic

[DjPush]

EVERY MAP has some stupid feature in it that ends up being the axis of rotation for the moronic dance of noobs that is the disease of this game. Gameplay would be so much better if you just added or removed features on the map, to break up the standard "ring around the rosey" that this game has always been.

The ramps that were added to River City was a good start. However, it would have been a much better move to just remove the "Citadel" all together. What is the obsession with putting big objects in the center of maps that attract zombified players like flies on feces? Please! Do some kind of analysis on player movements and correct your map design. It can't be that difficult.

[Mystere]

DjPush, on 01 October 2018 - 07:53 PM, said:

EVERY MAP has some stupid feature in it that ends up being the axis of rotation for the moronic dance of noobs that is the disease of this game. Gameplay would be so much better if you just added or removed features on the map, to break up the standard "ring around the rosey" that this game has always been.

The ramps that were added to River City was a good start. However, it would have been a much better move to just remove the "Citadel" all together. What is the obsession with putting big objects in the center of maps that attract zombified players like flies on feces? Please! Do some kind of analysis on player movements and correct your map design. It can't be that difficult.

"Balance". "Symmetrical balance".

[Variant1]

There aint nothing wrong with the maps, this is player behaviour not map design. Players in randoms by nature are drawn to the middle because they then have control of the map because they can go left or right. Me when my team is losing i like to retreat to the least used parts of the map to make my stand. Also I HATE the changes that have been made to some maps to "improve" them.
For instance: viridian bogs ramp and block off drop point inside the dead worm thing. The one side ramp made the map unique and asymetrical, those going mid could be countered by far back snipers. The dead worm thing drop made for excelent ambushes and a nice path to move through with jjs. but no they added the ramp and now its generic mid fight galore, before it both teams would split into 2 firing lanes.
River city: omg WHY add the ramp. another unique map ruined with the battle for citadel, all defence had to do was simply flank left or right because team offense was the worst move to take the citadel.
If pgi were to make more maps were mid was blocked by a giant mountain or something then players would engage in even worse behavior: nascaring. do you want more nascaring son, or midfight? personally i like midfight more, its straight into the action and usually end up being a fun mess

[Shifty McSwift]

I actually disagree with his outlook on life, but if he was talking about nascar in MWO, he was spot on.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 01 October 2018 - 08:44 PM.

[Prototelis]

In general the game needs more maps.

I think for the most part the (QP) maps it does have are fine and they should stop dinking around with them.

[Moldur]

Yeah lets "fix" HPG, Canyon, and Mining collective just like how PGI "fixed" Frozen City, Viridian, Forest, Caustic, etc.

Just checked and coincidentally, HPG, Canyon, and Mining are my most played maps (followed by old Viridian, RIP). They're also the most arena-like, central-object-centric maps imo.

"Popular doesn't mean better" you might say, but what then is the metric by which we measure how good a map is? Is it what a small group of players arbitrarily define as better? Why listen to them over the majority who voice their opinion through map voting?

It's a map in a game, so how do we go about such subjective rating? I think it should be obvious that maps should be rated with a utilitarian approach, meaning the most benefit for the most people, because there is really no objective way to rate a map. It's simply whatever the most people like.

Simply:
What people like = good map.
What more people like = more good map
What more more people like = more more good map

"People (disgusting commoners) don't know what they want."
Please do not pull that, we are not throwing a coup d'etat. It's a video game.

If the most people like maps like HPG, mining, canyon, old frozen city, old viridian (tbf not as bad as other retouched/overhauled maps), then don't ******* change them just because 10% of players want to roleplay MechWarrior3 in their mixed build on an improved (read:uselessly expanded) map half filled with nothing. MWO QP is a 12v12 cage fight and most people want it like that hence popularity of said maps. Even Tourmaline, which is a pretty large map, were it to have a heat map of players, it would all be in the central area. The rest of the huge map is useless so please stop pushing huge useless space in maps.


I just think of how mangled Frozen City is. It was one of the original maps the game shipped with. I have 111 matches in Frozen City (Night) which is only pre-"improvement." I have 128 matches in Frozen City, most in the pre-update as well. Combined, that makes it my most played map. It was perfectly fine, one of the most popular maps in the game. People literally complained that it was picked too much. You know why it was picked too much? Because people LIKED IT. That's how it works.

Now what do we have? A larger, worse map. Yeah. For some reason people lauded its expansion as if it were improvement. Now the original (well designed) parts of the map are almost completely ignored due to spawn placement, and instead we get to play on the part of the map that PGI threw together in like 2 months to appease players by going, "look, big map good OHH OOH AHH UNGA BUNGA."


In summary, please please please please please please please please please please do not put the bullet in the corpse by ripping the few intact, good QP maps that MWO has left away from us by letting PGI grope them into mediocrity.

And by the way, before map voting, I'm pretty sure PGI tweaked the ratio in favor of different maps to get player feedback. People would ***** and moan if x map was coming up all the time. People would ***** and moan less if a good map came up all the time. Whatever metric they were looking at, people played a hell of a lot of Frozen City.

Edited by Moldur, 01 October 2018 - 11:14 PM.

[El Bandito]

I rate maps on the scale of how likely the pugs are gonna screw it up--which means I do not vote for Mining, or Canyon.

[Tom Sawyer]

Maps are overrated. We need more mechpacks. And maybe some boltons.

[JC Daxion]

Moldur, on 01 October 2018 - 11:10 PM, said:

Yeah lets "fix" HPG, Canyon, and Mining collective just like how PGI "fixed" Frozen City, Viridian, Forest, Caustic, etc.

Just checked and coincidentally, HPG, Canyon, and Mining are my most played maps (followed by old Viridian, RIP). They're also the most arena-like, central-object-centric maps imo.

"Popular doesn't mean better" you might say, but what then is the metric by which we measure how good a map is? Is it what a small group of players arbitrarily define as better? Why listen to them over the majority who voice their opinion through map voting?

It's a map in a game, so how do we go about such subjective rating? I think it should be obvious that maps should be rated with a utilitarian approach, meaning the most benefit for the most people, because there is really no objective way to rate a map. It's simply whatever the most people like.

Simply:
What people like = good map.
What more people like = more good map
What more more people like = more more good map

"People (disgusting commoners) don't know what they want."
Please do not pull that, we are not throwing a coup d'etat. It's a video game.

If the most people like maps like HPG, mining, canyon, old frozen city, old viridian (tbf not as bad as other retouched/overhauled maps), then don't ******* change them just because 10% of players want to roleplay MechWarrior3 in their mixed build on an improved (read:uselessly expanded) map half filled with nothing. MWO QP is a 12v12 cage fight and most people want it like that hence popularity of said maps. Even Tourmaline, which is a pretty large map, were it to have a heat map of players, it would all be in the central area. The rest of the huge map is useless so please stop pushing huge useless space in maps.


I just think of how mangled Frozen City is. It was one of the original maps the game shipped with. I have 111 matches in Frozen City (Night) which is only pre-"improvement." I have 128 matches in Frozen City, most in the pre-update as well. Combined, that makes it my most played map. It was perfectly fine, one of the most popular maps in the game. People literally complained that it was picked too much. You know why it was picked too much? Because people LIKED IT. That's how it works.

Now what do we have? A larger, worse map. Yeah. For some reason people lauded its expansion as if it were improvement. Now the original (well designed) parts of the map are almost completely ignored due to spawn placement, and instead we get to play on the part of the map that PGI threw together in like 2 months to appease players by going, "look, big map good OHH OOH AHH UNGA BUNGA."


In summary, please please please please please please please please please please do not put the bullet in the corpse by ripping the few intact, good QP maps that MWO has left away from us by letting PGI grope them into mediocrity.

And by the way, before map voting, I'm pretty sure PGI tweaked the ratio in favor of different maps to get player feedback. People would ***** and moan if x map was coming up all the time. People would ***** and moan less if a good map came up all the time. Whatever metric they were looking at, people played a hell of a lot of Frozen City.

IMO your entire premise is way off..

The whole reason why those maps are played more are because they are tiny, and people can get quick matches, make just as much cash as a match that takes 8 mins, they can do in 3:30 aka half the time..


That is by far the main reason why these maps are over played to death.


I'm with the OP, fix the matches, change the spawns, or do something about making those maps come up less. I'm at the point that i'm so tired of playing those same couple maps i've barely played at all in the last few months. So much to the point that i might as well just reverse nascar the map and end it in 30 seconds and maybe i'll get to play something semi interesting in my next drop.

You get stuck in the far spawn in a slower mech on HPG or mining, you are dead, when the team pulls nascar crap, which we all know basically only works in pugs because they don't know anything else.

Wanna know why MWO pop is falling... It's this factor hands down.

Edited by JC Daxion, 02 October 2018 - 08:06 AM.

[Khobai]

The games problems extend far beyond map issues. MWO pop is falling because the game is just bad in general, it has no substance and isnt balanced or fun at all, the game doesn't improve as time goes on and somehow keeps getting worse, and PGI has absolutely no intention of fixing anything major, theyre just trying to milk it for as much cash as they can until it completely fails.

Tom Sawyer, on 02 October 2018 - 04:56 AM, said:

Maps are overrated. We need more mechpacks. And maybe some boltons.

Yes. Fun is overrated. Buy a mechpack. Or two!

Edited by Khobai, 02 October 2018 - 08:40 AM.

[LordNothing]

i dont really think nascar has anything to do with maps. its entirely due to gameplay. there are living legends maps with big central features and you never see nascar happen there. of course there is a map control element and mechs perform well in their appropriate roles. in mwo lights have to fight to score, and they get to the front first, and of course then you get the mediums and heavies in tow. and the assaults have no choice but to keep up or die. so you have nascar. if lights could get paid well to scout and spot (they dont), and assaults could be used to lay seige to hardened positions on the map (which do not exist), then you would get a lot less nascar.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 October 2018 - 09:07 AM.

[dwwolf]

DjPush, on 01 October 2018 - 07:53 PM, said:

EVERY MAP has some stupid feature in it that ends up being the axis of rotation for the moronic dance of noobs that is the disease of this game. Gameplay would be so much better if you just added or removed features on the map, to break up the standard "ring around the rosey" that this game has always been.

The ramps that were added to River City was a good start. However, it would have been a much better move to just remove the "Citadel" all together. What is the obsession with putting big objects in the center of maps that attract zombified players like flies on feces? Please! Do some kind of analysis on player movements and correct your map design. It can't be that difficult.

http://www.ongamedes...8/10/bubble.jpg

Basically, that is easy map design that generally leads to engaging game play.

[Jesse Custer]

I would just love it if they brought back the old maps into the rotation. Call them classic maps or whatever you have to.

[K O Z A K]

Nascar isn't a map problem, it happens because most people who play QP are selfish aholes that are ready to have half their team die just to get those few sweet free shots at enemies back while they're massacring your team, and the only way to thrive in this environment is to be a bigger ***** than everyone else

If you don't like Nascar play FP, due to the generally more team oriented mindset of players and the nature of respawning reinforcements there really isn't any nascar

[MechaBattler]

Wasn't part of the reason they put big objects on maps is to break up the line of sight so as to reduce the amount of items the client has to render?

I think they should create variants of existing maps. Just remove some stuff or move them around. Maybe take assets from other maps just to create some variety. Place lava on the floor of canyon network to make things interesting. It's not like they need to make a new map from scratch.

[Moldur]

JC Daxion, on 02 October 2018 - 08:03 AM, said:

IMO your entire premise is way off..

The whole reason why those maps are played more are because they are tiny, and people can get quick matches, make just as much cash as a match that takes 8 mins, they can do in 3:30 aka half the time..


That is by far the main reason why these maps are over played to death.


I'm with the OP, fix the matches, change the spawns, or do something about making those maps come up less. I'm at the point that i'm so tired of playing those same couple maps i've barely played at all in the last few months. So much to the point that i might as well just reverse nascar the map and end it in 30 seconds and maybe i'll get to play something semi interesting in my next drop.

You get stuck in the far spawn in a slower mech on HPG or mining, you are dead, when the team pulls nascar crap, which we all know basically only works in pugs because they don't know anything else.

Wanna know why MWO pop is falling... It's this factor hands down.

You are acting like these factors are mutually exclusive or negate each other. Your are talking as if liking quick matches is not a real reason for liking a map. Oh what, how dare the uncleaned masses pick the maps they want to play? How about we go with what the forum overlords say, **** every good arena map into a wasteland, then watch MWO's population... soar? What? That's delusional.

We'd have more maps to play if PGI made more good maps. We'd be playing way more Frozen City if it was still good, but essentially that map has been taken out of the game and replaced with a map that maybe you think is better, but is played far less often.

[process]

Smaller maps are simply better for playing faster matches. Bigger maps could do this, but static spawns necessarily keep everyone apart and gameplay stagnant; dynamic spawns and/or limiting the bounds to a portion of the map would accomplish the same thing and add much variety. There's very little reward to marching your team to some remote part of a map just to have a slightly different fight.

Also the larger maps tend to be the newer maps with crappy visibility, unnecessary time-of-day effects, and silly "immersive" doodads -- see forest, terra therma, river city, caustic.

Nascar, or flanking, happens because certain maps have a counter clockwise bias, but also because it gets results. A mixed team necessarily has faster and slower mechs, and there's compounding benefit to removing the most heavily armed and armored mechs as soon as possible. A deathball can blunt an over-zealous nascar run, but it can take a lot of inertia to get a team to function as a unit.

[50 50]

Meh.
The larger maps allow for different positioning or flanks.
The smaller the maps, the more 'in your face' it is.
Nothing wrong with either and I've got no issue with any of the maps.

However, given people do not try and dictate where the fight will take place by trying different things... which you can only really do in Skirmish because the objective based modes will determine it otherwise... is there another option worth considering?

What if combined with different drop locations we also had different out of bounds areas?
For Frozen city if you drew the out of bounds line down the canyon in the middle you would have the area the old map consisted of.

If making maps is such an undertaking, would having 2 or 3 different options per map give some variety to each map and each mode without needing to massively rebuild everything?
Don't get me wrong, I'd still like to see more maps, but it seems there could be an option to get multiple uses out of each single design.

[Sable Dove]

No map that's been "updated" has gotten better. Updates for maps generally just involve making the map bigger so that matches take longer and average earnings are lower.

As far as I can tell, that's the only purpose these updates have served except for the one ramp in River City.

Edited by Sable Dove, 04 October 2018 - 01:25 AM.

[Mech Ranger]

more weapons more map~

i mean since i started to play this game it's like 2 years only 3 new map (although they redid the old map ) and 1 pack of weapons~ join~

and u cant ask PGI balance the map ~ , in fact , they r the workshop who is so not good at balance i never seen~

so just ask them make more new map, dont consider this game serious~

Edited by Mech Ranger, 03 October 2018 - 06:20 PM.