48 replies to this topic

[Asym]

A gimmick and a weapon of last resort......

[Mechwarrior1441491]

They aren't meant to be main weapons. If you have the missile slots and a little tonnage left over, here is a way to reach out for a little more dps.

[GeminiWolf]

So I have this Centurion loaded with Rockets. I easy one shot kill my first target every time I run it. Trash? not so much. After that I AC20 the crap outta everything else.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

I find them to be useful filler, especially on MRM 'Mechs which may not use all of their missile hardpoints (since one or two big launchers generally works better than multiple smaller ones), have amazing ammo/ton efficiency, and still have a bit of tonnage left over but not enough for another full-up MRM launcher.

For example: 2xMRM30 CPLT-A1 with 4xRL10 for backup. The RL10s have a very similar range profile to the MRMs, so they can be stacked together to amplify the first few MRM peeks... or I can flush all four RLs if I peek and see something there that I really don't want to stare at long enough to unload the MRMs. IMO, they're worth more than another two tons of engine or ammo would be.

I've also stuck RLs on some of my other 'Mechs:

- OSR-3D; a RL20 in the LA to give its otherwise anemic 25-point ERML alpha one good first strike.
- Tempest, RL15 in the CT to back up 2xMRM40. Two more lasers ran too hot for my taste... but a RL15 is cool if chained as a follow-up for the MRMs, with the effect of adding a "free" MRM30 shot on top of the first MRM80 salvo.
- Reaver, RL10 in the CT, because the hardpoint isn't good for much else.
- GHR-5J, RL10 in the Head, same reason.
- HSN-8P, 4xRL10+1xRL20, 2xSNPPC. It's a silly build, but fun: fire the RL10s in pairs with the SNPPC, then the RL20 on the third shot, and fight with just the SNPPCs from there.

They're niche, but useful within that niche. The model for what consumables should be like: they require tonnage and slots, and aren't individually powerful enough to change the course of a team fight, but offer a one-time-use edge when you really need it. They're a "win this trade right now!" panic button, without the skeevy munchiness of MWO's magic weightless teleporting smokebomb artillery.

[LordNothing]

RickySpanish, on 12 October 2018 - 04:28 PM, said:

Man if only it were easy to code networked games.

it is if you support lan play. i like how around the time network gear got cheap, game devs stopped using it.

Asym, on 13 October 2018 - 04:23 AM, said:

A gimmick and a weapon of last resort......

i usually get rid of them as soon as possible. its just an ammo explosion waiting to happen otherwise.

[mad kat]

I just bought back a shadowhawk 2D2 and went with a RAC5, 2ML and 3xRL15's and a Rl10. In testing grounds if your more than 60 metres away they register.

But in matches they virtually never seem to register any damage at all.

I consider them like an instant artillery strike that wastes tonnage, space and virtually never works.

[VonBruinwald]

Needs the minimum range removing to become viable.

Sure there's the potential of one-shot builds, but they literally have one shot, one opportunity, to seize that kill, one moment, where they kill or let it slip.

But it's no worse that what a semi-competent Piranah pilot is doing every match.

OR, they tighten the spread to something more practical.

[MechaBattler]

You could use the slot and tonnage probably elsewhere. But I run an archer that has several of them. And it's real nice to run into an assault and chain fire them off to avoid overheat. And just watch the armor melt away. Then lay into them with quad SRM6+Art. It's a troll build. But I find it fun. Though there are times where I get the feeling hit reg is not causing some of those missiles to register, especially on smaller targets. That's why assaults are a better target for them.

[Jman5]

Old thread, but I have not found any evidence that Rocket launchers are not registering or exploding mid-flight. I just tested 3 rocket launcher 20s at about 200 meters in a private lobby game. Total possible damage is 120. I did 110 in one game 116 in another, which makes sense for a spread weapon.

While I don't think they're OP, I think people undervalue them in the right circumstances. The problem is a lot of you guys just do dumb stuff with them like make a mech with nothing but rocket launchers and then you fire them all at once which immediately cooks your mech.

Rocket launchers are not primary weapons! They're supplementary ones that are useful for some builds and less so for others.

So when do I make use of these odd weapons I hear you asking?

Here is my checklist:

1. Do you have unused missile hardpoints?
2. Is your build too toasty to support alternative missile weapons?
3. Can you squeeze in 0.5+ tons of more guns?
4. Is your build medium to long range?
5. Are you already juggling 2 or 3 different weapons?

If you answered yes to some or all of these, then congratulations, your build would probably benefit from a Rocket Launcher or 3.

[Verilligo]

Jman5, on 25 October 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

Old thread, but I have not found any evidence that Rocket launchers are not registering or exploding mid-flight. I just tested 3 rocket launcher 20s at about 200 meters in a private lobby game. Total possible damage is 120. I did 110 in one game 116 in another, which makes sense for a spread weapon.

While I don't think they're OP, I think people undervalue them in the right circumstances. The problem is a lot of you guys just do dumb stuff with them like make a mech with nothing but rocket launchers and then you fire them all at once which immediately cooks your mech.

Rocket launchers are not primary weapons! They're supplementary ones that are useful for some builds and less so for others.

So when do I make use of these odd weapons I hear you asking?

Here is my checklist:

1. Do you have unused missile hardpoints?
2. Is your build too toasty to support alternative missile weapons?
3. Can you squeeze in 0.5+ tons of more guns?
4. Is your build medium to long range?
5. Are you already juggling 2 or 3 different weapons?

If you answered yes to some or all of these, then congratulations, your build would probably benefit from a Rocket Launcher or 3.

Or, alternatively, you could make a better build that doesn't "rely" on the gimmick weapon. Yeah, I know, that's not the point you're trying to raise, rocket launchers are purely intended for memes and fun, a weapon of surprise that lets you have some giggles. But that doesn't make them viable, just usable. Then again, they're not actually intended to be good weapons, not in a 12v12 game. They really should be evaluated on the basis of whether they're fun, rather than whether they're actually any good.

By that metric, they perform much better, as its entertaining to take a massive rocket dump on a tip of the spear assault's face, potentially stalling out a push with shock and awe. It doesn't really work against the top players, but the sandblasting can make them easier to take out if the rest of their team is less than the best.

[Shifty McSwift]

RickySpanish, on 12 October 2018 - 04:28 PM, said:

Man if only it were easy to code networked games.

I would think a decent chunk of it comes down to having good servers with good communications, but that is quite expensive to maintain, and is often the first thing to go in efforts to minimise costs.

[PurplePuke]

Rocket launchers are working perfectly. They're really well-balanced the way they are.

I only use a couple here and there where it fills out a build nicely. That's their intended use.

[Sjorpha]

Nerfed because of the 1-shot javelin meme build people ran in the Civil War pts, not because it was a real problem but pgi got triggered by the idea I suppose.

Should be buffed back to how they were in the pts, with no ghost heat and no minimum range. Then they could be useful.

It's sad that they're underpowered because it's a really fun weapon.

[Jman5]

Verilligo, on 26 October 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

Or, alternatively, you could make a better build that doesn't "rely" on the gimmick weapon. Yeah, I know, that's not the point you're trying to raise, rocket launchers are purely intended for memes and fun, a weapon of surprise that lets you have some giggles. But that doesn't make them viable, just usable. Then again, they're not actually intended to be good weapons, not in a 12v12 game. They really should be evaluated on the basis of whether they're fun, rather than whether they're actually any good.

By that metric, they perform much better, as its entertaining to take a massive rocket dump on a tip of the spear assault's face, potentially stalling out a push with shock and awe. It doesn't really work against the top players, but the sandblasting can make them easier to take out if the rest of their team is less than the best.

It's not a gimmick weapon anymore than any other small weapon is a gimmick. It's a niche weapon that performs well for its tonnage in the right circumstances.

A half ton rocket Launcher 10 is not some miracle weapon that will single handedly carry you to victory, but neither is a half ton small laser. It's useful as a supplemental addition to round out certain builds.

Quote

rocket launchers are purely intended for memes and fun...

Then again, they're not actually intended to be good weapons, not in a 12v12 game...

It doesn't really work against the top players

I must have missed the meeting where all this was "officially" decided. Doesn't work against top players? Good players don't get damage resistance against non-meta weapons. Rocket Launchers hurt just as much as a similar amount of damage from any other spread weapon regardless of what your rank is.

Quote

Or, alternatively, you could make a better build that doesn't "rely" on the gimmick weapon.

I really like them on my Orion1-V. I'm curious, using dual UAC/5s and Large Lasers as a framework how would you make the build as good as you can? (you're welcome to adjust the energy slots though if you have a better idea)

Edited by Jman5, 26 October 2018 - 09:51 AM.

[Verilligo]

Jman5, on 26 October 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

It's not a gimmick weapon anymore than any other small weapon is a gimmick. It's a niche weapon that performs well for its tonnage in the right circumstances.

A half ton rocket Launcher 10 is not some miracle weapon that will single handedly carry you to victory, but neither is a half ton small laser. It's useful as a supplemental addition to round out certain builds.



I must have missed the meeting where all this was "officially" decided. Doesn't work against top players? Good players don't get damage resistance against non-meta weapons. Rocket Launchers hurt just as much as a similar amount of damage from any other spread weapon regardless of what your rank is.



I really like them on my Orion1-V. I'm curious, using dual UAC/5s and Large Lasers as a framework how would you make the build as good as you can? (you're welcome to adjust the energy slots though if you have a better idea)

My intention wasn't to say that good players don't take damage from getting a load of explosives dumped in their face, my point was that the damage off the rocket launchers is as much about psychological damage as it is about actual damage. You deal a metric buttload of damage all over someone's front end (or even better all over their posterior) and they're likely to change tactics because they'll want to start playing more defensively.

The best players won't necessarily because they'll understand what just happened and will punish appropriately from whatever power position they're in. They'll still take the damage, but they know how to maximize their mech so that the end result of taking that damage isn't necessarily going to be an eventual death. And in a push situation, they're also a lot less likely to back off and will instead know how to keep the momentum of the push going. The psychological component just isn't there when you're trading damage with someone with a particular level of skill and experience. It's kind of the same thing with RACs, you can totally blind someone with them, but the best players will still manage to isolate your ST through the flares and strip it off. Obviously we're not always dealing with the best of the best, of course, but it's something to have in mind.

As for the jab at the small laser... ehm. I really wouldn't just... throw a half ton small laser on a build. A trio on my MRM80 Thanny, sure, maybe even a few tossed onto the Flea to pair with its SPLs. But most of the time I usually don't use "backup" weapons. I try to keep to a theme and focus my mech heavily in that direction. I've only got three weapon group buttons I can use on my mouse, so that impacts a bit of how I build.

With regards to the Orion... I actually ran builds similar to that in the past, without the RLs. I haven't tried playing it since the heat changes. My initial thought is... given it's an Orion, you're probably going to want to get yourself into a situation where you're fully engaged and putting out DPS, rather than any sort of peeking situation. For that, you'll want all the cooling you can get so that you don't have to disengage to chill out again. I would probably bump the lasers up to LPLs, LFE280, 4 DHS. If you prefer the range on the LLs, you can go with an LFE300 and either 5 DHS with some extra armor or with 4 DHS, near max armor, and an extra half ton of UAC5 ammo. Or if you're having a rainy day, LFE300, 4 DHS, an AMS and one ton AMS ammo.

If you don't mind going without lasers, though, you can pick up an MRM40 to go with your UAC5s. My thinking was LFE300, 2 DHS, MRM40 and 2.5 tons ammo. This gives you even more overall DPS that runs a bit colder, at the cost of being slightly less pinpoint with where the damage is going. It does avoid the convergence problems associated with Onion arms, though. All of these builds have some level of armor shaving, too, but the latter one lets you keep the armor loss in the arms where you don't have anything important stored.

[Jman5]

Can you build it for me instead of just describing it? Details get lost in the description. I left armor, engine and other stuff off to give you as blanker canvas to work with.

[ObeyTheLion]

They're definetly good for one-shot troll builds.
I remember getting shot up in the arse by a RL 100 Javelin and dying instantly.
It did teach me one important thing:

- NEVER EVER stray away from your team

[Verilligo]

Jman5, on 26 October 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Can you build it for me instead of just describing it? Details get lost in the description. I left armor, engine and other stuff off to give you as blanker canvas to work with.

Yeah, sorry. Just an old habit to describe it out, rather than making links.

LPL: ON1-V
LL, more cooling: ON1-V
LL, more armor/ammo: ON1-V
LL, with AMS: ON1-V
MRM40: ON1-V

[jjm1]

I run them on a couple of mechs. My Gauss KGC with a RL80 gib button has proven itself many times.

[GoatHILL]

I can't count the times someone runs right up on me and fires their rockets.

Remember children they have a 90m min. range.