57 replies to this topic

[Eisenhorne]

BumbaCLot, on 17 October 2018 - 07:14 AM, said:

See this makes sense to me, and I asked you and Fusion about it when we played this weekend. I'd rather lose to a timeout than 21-48 or whatever that game ended up being. Getting 48 damage on my Battlemaster made it seem stupid to even bring.

That game we just didn't have enough people in coordinated ERLL builds to even slowly move in and snipe, so the choice was basically to just sit outside the gate and wait for them to push. It's definitely harder to attack than defend, and while the defenders can basically bring whatever they want and be tough to deal with as long as they have a solid core of LRM / ERLL mechs, the attacking force -must- be coordinated with ERLL mechs to have a chance of breaking them.

[BumbaCLot]

Eisenhorne, on 17 October 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

That game we just didn't have enough people in coordinated ERLL builds to even slowly move in and snipe, so the choice was basically to just sit outside the gate and wait for them to push. It's definitely harder to attack than defend, and while the defenders can basically bring whatever they want and be tough to deal with as long as they have a solid core of LRM / ERLL mechs, the attacking force -must- be coordinated with ERLL mechs to have a chance of breaking them.

Yeah I understand, it was unwinnable, but just seemed silly losing that first wave so horribly.

[BumbaCLot]

Gristle Missile, on 17 October 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

I dont know what that you are trying to say
But in FP I usually get a pretty high match score and I am giving evidence (anecdotal, sure) of a way I find that helps counter them. If you think that LRM are unbeatable in FP, then I just feel bad for you, because I really don't view them as that big a threat, even when boated to the extreme. Maybe Im just lucky to get in matches where my team has lots of ams and ecm

Ive had matches where the enemy team was a premade unit with lrms on the first wave. Didn't really matter - AMS and ECM helped us close distance and then once the brawl was on they just started dropping fast because they couldn't keep up with the superior dps. All it takes is a little voice com with your team

So you are beating the EVIL/BCMC 1:1 daily? If not your anecdote is not that impressive. If it's vs A/D5/8/10 or whoever the bad group is that use them every map, then yes, that's not surprising.

[Gristle Missile]

BumbaCLot, on 17 October 2018 - 09:05 AM, said:

So you are beating the EVIL/BCMC 1:1 daily? If not your anecdote is not that impressive. If it's vs A/D5/8/10 or whoever the bad group is that use them every map, then yes, that's not surprising.

I don't even see multiple full unit premades daily - maybe more on the weekend but thats it.
the more coordinated team will win most of the time...that goes for any weapons, not just LRM - they just take less attention and concentration while the targets of LRM have to play flawlessly. But yes I have beaten several good units

I'm sorry that 2 AMS can't beat every missile ever, but for an average FP game with average players it works well to help battle LRM while being a minor tonnage investment
I haven't played FP since the patch, but forming a protective bubble of ams and ecm while advancing and sniping has been effective for me even under maximum LRM spam...if you don't accept that, well I guess just find your own tactic and don't listen to me... or continue to complain about them
Ive also had Linebacker rushes go down very well. Can't kill all of you

Edited by Gristle Missile, 17 October 2018 - 09:36 AM.

[BumbaCLot]

Gristle Missile, on 17 October 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

I don't even see multiple full unit premades daily - maybe more on the weekend but thats it.
the more coordinated team will win most of the time...that goes for any weapons, not just LRM - they just take less attention and concentration while the targets of LRM have to play flawlessly. But yes I have beaten several good units

I'm sorry that 2 AMS can't beat every missile ever, but for an average FP game with average players it works well to help battle LRM while being a minor tonnage investment
forming a protective bubble of ams and ecm while advancing and sniping has been effective for me even under maximum LRM spam...if you don't accept that, well I guess just find your own tactic and don't listen to me... or continue to complain about them
Ive also had Linebacker rushes go down very well

If you don't know who I'm referring to, then you probably guess it's a group of 12 randoms then.
And yes I've beaten average groups with AMS crabs and with non AMS linebackers.

[Gristle Missile]

BumbaCLot, on 17 October 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

If you don't know who I'm referring to, then you probably guess it's a group of 12 randoms then.
And yes I've beaten average groups with AMS crabs and with non AMS linebackers.

Yes I know you are referring to units. Some of the best matches Ive had were unit vs unit against good players - im simply putting it into perspective that coordinated lurm spam is the exception and not the norm
I still don't know what point you are trying to make other than arguing with me when I already prefaced it with my opinion

Edited by Gristle Missile, 17 October 2018 - 09:48 AM.

[McGoat]

Gristle Missile, on 17 October 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

Yes I know you are referring to units. Some of the best matches Ive had were unit vs unit against good players - im simply putting it into perspective that coordinated lurm spam is the exception and not the norm
I still don't know what point you are trying to make other than arguing with me when I already prefaced it with my opinion

lol - this alone says enough in that you might sometimes play against good players, but mostly play vs bads.

EVIL, and then BCMC, for the longest time were the best FP units - period. KCOM may have won a lot, but they were/are a one trick pony. There are not many of us (EVIL) left that regularly play FP, but we're there - often times carrying a pug team or mixed up with our BCMC friends - though most, including BCMC, don't wear a tag anymore. That "mixed group" that wrecked 48-12, is probably what is left of EVIL/BCMC.

And yes, coordinated lrm spam is the exception - but you cannot deny the ridiculous effect of it.
Last night, in a competitive BFM match, we (though I wasn't on this drop) smashed 228 with lrms in an embarrassing manner.
LRMs are real now - don't hide behind your small point of view.

https://www.twitch.t...670?t=00h16m48s

Polar match starts at 01:27

Edited by McGoat, 18 October 2018 - 06:55 AM.

[S O L A I S]

Alexandra Hekmatyar, on 17 October 2018 - 03:49 AM, said:

In FP there was a time were there was 1 unit (on clan side) that always did the LURM spamming on almost every map.
Nowadays it's all the elites in FP that used to whine and moan telling people how noobish they were for using lurms.
Very ironic that the 1 unit used lurmagaddon almost everytime over time used less of it while the elites from not using it began spamming it like hell.



Works if it's coordinated and the AMS dome helps to sponge up some damage at least.
But sadly enough not enough people do that.

Here's a little hint for ya....those elite guys lurming you are doing so because it works against you. Well. Probably too well actually.

[S O L A I S]

Gristle Missile, on 17 October 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

I dont know what that you are trying to say
But in FP I usually get a pretty high match score and I am giving evidence (anecdotal, sure) of a way I find that helps counter them. If you think that LRM are unbeatable in FP, then I just feel bad for you, because I really don't view them as that big a threat, even when boated to the extreme. Maybe Im just lucky to get in matches where my team has lots of ams and ecm

Ive had matches where the enemy team was a premade unit with lrms on the first wave. Didn't really matter - AMS and ECM helped us close distance and then once the brawl was on they just started dropping fast because they couldn't keep up with the superior dps. All it takes is a little voice com with your team

Cool. Well I play for BCMC and am known for running the groups that most regulars in NA prime time would recognise. So I invite you sir to get some of your friends together and....COME AT ME BRAH!!!!


Oh and don't feel too bad for me, I am having a good deal of fun lurming the bejeebus outta pugs and such until I stumble upon a real match.

[MischiefSC]

El Bandito, on 16 October 2018 - 01:37 PM, said:

With the nerf to ERLLs on both sides along with the nerf to ECM, FP teams are gonna gravitate even more towards lurm comp on open maps--which will make FP mode even less popular.

Ironically this is a big part of the problem right here.

While not all units are willing to do it, the best counter to the CLRM spam + 2 NARC mechs on Polar/Caustic/Alpine is a lot of AMS and ECM and strong ERLL builds, plus 4 ECM lights (like 4 Grinners would be excellent). The 4 lights hunt and kill the 2 NARCers and your ERLL guys take up position mid and shoot down any UAVs. If you can't kill an ACH/Kitfox/Myth Lynx NARC mech with 4 Grinners before he can NARC all 4 of you then you were never going to win anyway.

At that point the ERLL boats are going to have to expose to use tag to shoot. They're pretty much all going to be lightly armored and low mounts for the energy. They probably have 2 or 3 ranged trade mechs as well. However if you can't leverage ECM Stalkers/BLRs with AMS to turn this into a win while you've got 4 ECM Grinners picking a side of the LRM line and chewing, well, again. You were always going to lose.

You can't push in that circumstance against the LRM group. It's not even about the NARC - if they set a line 800m back and 800m wide they've essentially got a diffused firing line with defense in depth. You're trying to push 1600m in open terrain against an enemy using indirect fire.

However the tradeoff is a loss of accuracy and by being a diffused line they can't help each other as effectively against something like 4 fast ECM lights. So if you deny them effective NARC and have a setup to exploit their inability to support one another via IDF and 8 mechs set up to win long range trades at 800m you should be able to win....

unless someone does something stupid like nerf ECM and ERLLs.

[Gristle Missile]

McGoat, on 18 October 2018 - 06:52 AM, said:

lol - this alone says enough in that you might sometimes play against good players, but mostly play vs bads.

I feel like that is the nature of FP right now

McGoat, on 18 October 2018 - 06:52 AM, said:

And yes, coordinated lrm spam is the exception - but you cannot deny the ridiculous effect of it.

Yes I will admit it is ridiculously effective. As I said in an earlier post, coordinated LRM spam is very, very forgiving. Targets of LRM have to play flawlessly. But its not unbeatable IMO as I have anecdotal evidence in beating good players using that tactic

McGoat, on 18 October 2018 - 06:52 AM, said:

Last night, in a competitive BFM match, we (though I wasn't on this drop) smashed 228 with lrms in an embarrassing manner.
LRMs are real now - don't hide behind your small point of view.

https://www.twitch.t...670?t=00h16m48s

Polar match starts at 01:27

Yes that proves both our points really, Empyreal was balled up with LRMs. Its polar, LRMs could have been anticipated, yet I saw no AMS or ECM from Swamp. Additionally, they were quite spread out

its more of a map design issue than an LRM issue

Edited by Gristle Missile, 18 October 2018 - 05:38 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

So coordinated people using LRMs rather well? Why is that an issue? Sounds more like Teamwork "OP" to me.

If you're annoyed that it's being a liability if not with a coordinated team, well that's also annoying.

But honestly the real problem is how PGI implemented LRMs. It's quite a conundrum, as in how do you make IDF not that OP or not that UP, while also making it as a stand-alone useful? PGI's approach of putting DPS with IDF isn't probably a good combination.

[Teonas]

MischiefSC, on 18 October 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

ECM and strong ERLL builds, plus 4 ECM lights
...

unless someone does something stupid like nerf ECM...

You noticed

Patchnotes said:

ECM:
Weapon Lock on Time penalty effect now only affects indirect weapon locks when the firer has no LOS to the target under ECM.

The rain starts immediately once you are in the open.

[S O L A I S]

Gristle Missile, on 18 October 2018 - 04:42 PM, said:

Yes that proves both our points really, Empyreal was balled up with LRMs. Its polar, LRMs could have been anticipated, yet I saw no AMS or ECM from Swamp. Additionally, they were quite spread out

its more of a map design issue than an LRM issue

What the issue really is here, is that you somehow have it in your head that AMS is effective.

There is no AMS strat for defeating lurms, and you could a crab rush against lrms with or without AMS to the same effect. You commenting on the Swamp's being spread out also indicates you do not quite grasp most of what's going on at that level. In comp outside of the odd brawl strats you don't see the murder ball you are likely accustomed to.

So again if you are dropping first, by yourself in an AMS Crab to 'help' your team, stop it. You want to help get in an ECM mech with er large lasers and don't get in missile range.

[Gristle Missile]

S O L A I S, on 19 October 2018 - 08:21 AM, said:

What the issue really is here, is that you somehow have it in your head that AMS is effective.

lol you really don't want to admit that I found something that has worked repeatedly for me against heavy LRMs and are continuing to attack my game experience in an effort to discredit my opinion...
Well, you can just continue as you are, buttsalty about LRMs and just disregard me because obviously we are playing different games

S O L A I S, on 19 October 2018 - 08:21 AM, said:

You commenting on the Swamp's being spread out also indicates you do not quite grasp most of what's going on at that level. In comp outside of the odd brawl strats you don't see the murder ball you are likely accustomed to.

When a strat doesn't work - you change the strat. Clearly spreading vs LRM didn't work....what is the point you are trying to make here?

S O L A I S, on 19 October 2018 - 08:21 AM, said:

So again if you are dropping first, by yourself in an AMS Crab to 'help' your team, stop it. You want to help get in an ECM mech with er large lasers and don't get in missile range.

I wouldn't say the AMS is the focus of the build, more like a bonus for minimal tonnage investment that provides a benefit worth many tons more. - It also happens to have pulse lasers
I appreciate your tier 3 opinion, but how about you not tell me how to play instead

Edited by Gristle Missile, 19 October 2018 - 05:20 PM.

[K O Z A K]

Gristle Missile, on 19 October 2018 - 03:20 PM, said:

lol you really don't want to admit that I found something that has worked repeatedly for me against heavy LRMs and are continuing to attack my game experience in an effort to discredit my opinion...
Well, you can just continue as you are, buttsalty about LRMs and just disregard me because obviously we are playing different games



When a strat doesn't work - you change the strat. Clearly spreading vs LRM didn't work....what is the point you are trying to make here?



I wouldn't say the AMS is the focus of the build, more like a bonus for minimal tonnage investment that provides a benefit worth many tons more. - It also happens to have pulse lasers
I appreciate your tier 3 opinion, but how about you not tell me how to play instead

lmfao

[Lightfoot]

Be thankful MWO never added Mech Knockdowns due to what's called 'weapon spin'. LRMs pack a lot of weapon spin.

[MischiefSC]

AMS helps a bit. If you've got 12 it can help quite a bit. Where it really shines isn't when you've got 8 mechs shooting 1 NARCed mech but when you've got inconsistent LRM fire. At that point if you're balled up you're killing about 60-80 missiles (or more, AMS has a huge random swing of 50% effectiveness in any given salvo. As in sometimes your AMS will kill 4 missiles, sometimes as much as 8) which is significant.

It's also good if you're just long range trading, ideally with access to ECM. It can blunt the edge of return fire if you're getting out of the way before all 8 enemies are getting clear shots on you. The NARC trick works when you don't have enough ECM to get through all the NARCs they can spit out before you kill the NARCers. With the NARCs down it turns into trading direct fire vs LRMs. You want to keep forcing them to switch targets and get locks again.

LRM strats succeed or fail based on the ability of your light pilots. Or on the other teams unwillingness or inability to adapt to changing strategies.