5 replies to this topic

[SoulRcannon]

So, pretty much everything has changed by some degree with this patch. I thought I'd share some thoughts with the potential direction it could take from this point to tune the results of these changes. I'll attempt not to get too bogged down by the minutiae of it, as there would then be too much to cover.

Heat System Changes

Where clan mechs can use XL engines more safely, have more slots available using endo/ferro, have many weapon systems weighing half as much as their IS counterparts... Said clan mechs are usually capable of boating many more double heat sinks (DHS) at the same tonnage point as an equivalent IS mech. The net effect is that on the whole clan mechs are capable of dissipating heat far more quickly. Ballistics feel a little marginalised to an extent due to how quickly this can occur now, where laser weaponry now occupies a stronger dps role without the tonnage ballistics use - that aside, even for IS mechs TTK has gone down.

Now, how to change it? You could increase the heat generation for clan weapons, but that would hurt lighter mechs more. For the PTS 2.x sessions I believe DHS had a dissipation rate of 0.2, and honestly having played with it, that felt fine. And as mechs get heavier you see clan mechs use more than double the number of DHS IS are even capable of using - and even lighter clan mechs can more often utilise more heat sinks than an IS equivalent.

So what I am suggesting, is that for a little more parity of performance between clan and IS, only clan DHS dissipation could be reduced to 0.2 - or more broadly, if dissipation gets hit for both sides, clan DHS should get hit harder. If you need a lore/fluff reason for the better performance of IS DHS under such a circumstance, they occupy more crit space and increased surface area within dissipates heat a little better, with clan tech able to utilise most of that performance within a smaller crit slot footprint.

Weapon and Tech Considerations (under new heat system)

There are a few weapon systems that need revisiting with the new changes. Rotary Autocannons now feel like a more inadvisable use of tonnage relative to their cooler counterparts due to how quickly they now fill the smaller heat guage. I believe this was mentioned on the PTS servers by a number of people too. If their heat generation was reduced only slightly the impact of the patch on their use could be mitigated.

Now let's talk about flamers. With the changes, their ability to lock someone out of playing has increased immensely (that is, if a mech with them can survive the unending laser fire to get close enough to use them). Their effectiveness going forward is likely to become an issue, despite their repeated nerfs. A potential role for them in future could be as more of a close range dps weapon, and as a means to provide counterplay targeting hot (laservomit) mechs in a similar way to how AMS is supposed to assist against missile boats. Basically, their heat damage could be reduced/changed to negate heat dissipation, with their actual damage increased in turn.

And when it comes to stealth armor, would a potential solution be to halve the normal heat dissipation of the mech equipping it, or perhaps have it set to a fixed dissipation rate rather than completely negate it? If that would solve issues regarding stealth armor's use, then great.

Finally, I'm gonna say it - I don't get the cMPL nerf. If it keeps being nerfed it's just going to be considered a waste of tonnage. It's not unlike how SPL (IS or clan) isn't really being seen much these days, where it would be wonderful going forward to see more play-styles being supported.

Quirks Going Forward

On the subject of supporting more play-styles, the new heat scale limit quirks certainly look promising - I look forward to seeing more of them on various mechs in future (like dual AC/20's on a King Crab - having said that, in the era of dual heavy gauss one wonders the purpose of the heat scale trigger being 2 on AC/20's at all, but hey).

It would be wonderful if heat dissipation quirks, or the need for their use in the case of certain (lighter) outliers is being monitored/adjusted in the new heat climate, especially so where changes may come to said heat system in future. And on the concept of monitoring quirks, while I admit that IS armor quirks do need considering I think that with such a big change as this new heat system, it's overall effect should be noted first. If it turns out that the extent of adjustment with this patch was too heavy handed (perhaps the Bushwacker, particularly its legs, and the now twice-hit ANH-2A/1X), then the prospect of corrective adjustments coming in future would be appreciated. In the case of the Bushwacker, it's a mainstay of scouting in FP, and the introduction of the Vapor Eagle next month promises to upset the balance of scouting further, so I also hope that that is also being considered.

And that's about it from me - this patch certainly has me interested to see the direction MWO will go from here.

[Aivazovsky]

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There are a few weapon systems that need revisiting with the new changes. Rotary Autocannons now feel like a more inadvisable use of tonnage relative to their cooler counterparts due to how quickly they now fill the smaller heat guage. I believe this was mentioned on the PTS servers by a number of people too. If their heat generation was reduced only slightly the impact of the patch on their use could be mitigated.

Man, what are you talking about? 5 RAC2:
https://www.youtube....0&v=szs5rOzHABk

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And that's about it from me - this patch certainly has me interested to see the direction MWO will go from here.

This patch is fun. But this patch completely destroyed the balance of the game. The heat scale is now secondary for gameplay. And so the only style of play is brawling. The game is totally broken.

Edited by Aivazovsky, 17 October 2018 - 11:26 PM.

[SoulRcannon]

Aivazovsky, on 17 October 2018 - 11:25 PM, said:

Man, what are you talking about? 5 RAC2:
https://www.youtube....0&v=szs5rOzHABk


This patch is fun. But this patch completely destroyed the balance of the game. The heat scale is now secondary for gameplay. And so the only style of play is brawling. The game is totally broken.

There's a difference between 5 RAC2's on an annihilator with 19 DHS then using a coolshot vs 3 RAC2's on a Shadowhawk with 11 DHS. For the latter, would rather now go 3 UAC2's every time. Even then, it'll not perform anywhere near as well as I might do in a clan laserboat these days. And if you take a mech that is 100t and equip an XL engine on the thing to free up the slots and tonnage to have enough sinks and ammo... why bother? Was just saying, RAC's are a bit too spicy now due to the reduced heat cap.

And Brawling? What makes you think you can get close enough to brawl before the lasers that out-range you cut your mech in half?

You're not wrong for the most part though, which is why I'm interested in the direction of balance in MWO from here.

Edit: fixed poor quote formatting

Edited by BattleCannon, 18 October 2018 - 12:33 PM.

[Flow5tate]

Has it ever been considered to add a recoil dampening effect to the "Improved Gyros" nodes to compensate the shake of - namely - Heavy Gauss Rifle and the occurring aim offset to other weapons resulting from said HGR shots?

[Cypherdrene]

BattleCannon, on 17 October 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

Heat System Changes

Now, how to change it? You could increase the heat generation for clan weapons, but that would hurt lighter mechs more. For the PTS 2.x sessions I believe DHS had a dissipation rate of 0.2, and honestly having played with it, that felt fine. And as mechs get heavier you see clan mechs use more than double the number of DHS IS are even capable of using - and even lighter clan mechs can more often utilise more heat sinks than an IS equivalent.

So what I am suggesting, is that for a little more parity of performance between clan and IS, only clan DHS dissipation could be reduced to 0.2 - or more broadly, if dissipation gets hit for both sides, clan DHS should get hit harder. If you need a lore/fluff reason for the better performance of IS DHS under such a circumstance, they occupy more crit space and increased surface area within dissipates heat a little better, with clan tech able to utilise most of that performance within a smaller crit slot footprint.

Battletech Heatsinsks are not metal fin arrays that passively cool themselves, they're heat pumps, Clan tech is superior thus it uses less space for "twice" the performance, so no, Clan DHS should not be inferior in any way.

Clan weapons are almost 1:1 in heat:damage, that's already painful. Also, most Clan mechs are not as durable as IS, be it geometry or quirks.

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Finally, I'm gonna say it - I don't get the cMPL nerf. If it keeps being nerfed it's just going to be considered a waste of tonnage. It's not unlike how SPL (IS or clan) isn't really being seen much these days, where it would be wonderful going forward to see more play-styles being supported.

For some reson, people don't seem to understand the implications of CMLP/CERML/CERLL nerf, it's just ridiculous.

Edited by Cypherdrene, 20 October 2018 - 10:50 AM.

[SoulRcannon]

Cypherdrene, on 20 October 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

Battletech Heatsinsks are not metal fin arrays that passively cool themselves, they're heat pumps, Clan tech is superior thus it uses less space for "twice" the performance, so no, Clan DHS should not be inferior in any way.

Clan weapons are almost 1:1 in heat:damage, that's already painful. Also, most Clan mechs are not as durable as IS, be it geometry or quirks.

For some reson, people don't seem to understand the implications of CMLP/CERML/CERLL nerf, it's just ridiculous.

IS DHS are still larger, irrespective of the method of heat dissipation that could easily be used as a reasoning for leaving them a little better than clan DHS - more room for coolant to act, more space to pump the heat away, greater area for coolant to act upon, etc. Not disputing that clan tech is better, it is - the bigger takeaway from clan DHS is that they occupy less space. They'd still be better than IS DHS even if they didn't dissipate heat quite as well due to this. With the weight saved from the superior weapon systems, superior XL engine and the superior ferro/endo... you've got plenty of room to fill the mech up them after the weapon/armor/engine loadout. I mean, often enough room for twice as many external DHS - take 20 ext DHS on a 2LPL 6ERML MAD-IIC vs 10 ext DHS on a 3LPL 4ERML BLR-1G

You're right about the heat generation of clan tech, it's punitive enough as is. But in the current patch, Clan DHS boating more than makes up for this, to the point where for the sake of balance slightly reducing the dissipation on Clan DHS wouldn't greatly hinder clan mechs. And yeah, IS mechs have a little extra durability - so in this patches' environ, they last a second or two more relative to their clan counterpart that has put out that much more dps throughout a game? Well worth it 0.o